Just imagine the fun you'll be having in PvP when your toggles start getting dropped every other minute. Oh, the fun we have!!!
I dont have Toggle drops very much in PVP at all. - only on occasion with a Storm controler/Energy blaster, but that is a slim change of happining unless im just unlucky. - Its funny..as when I created this toon, I never intended to use this for PVP (I always use x44), this was for SG missions as its pure class in AOE is ace. but over the last week or so in PVP its really prooven to be a killer and not a victim...
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Just imagine the fun you'll be having in PvP when your toggles start getting dropped every other minute. Oh, the fun we have!!!
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I don't PvP much but isn't having lots of toggles in PvP an advantage as there is less chance of the all important mez protection being dropped? This is from my Inv tank with 6 toggles. However it is a very irritating advantage.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Just imagine the fun you'll be having in PvP when your toggles start getting dropped every other minute. Oh, the fun we have!!!
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I don't PvP much but isn't having lots of toggles in PvP an advantage as there is less chance of the all important mez protection being dropped? This is from my Inv tank with 6 toggles. However it is a very irritating advantage.
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Nope, because I have very few "frivolous" toggles. And, seeing as theres no audio cue to tell you when somethings gone down, you have to be constantly watching your status bar to see whats up and whats down.
I run the following toggles in PvP:
Focussed Accuracy
Combat Jumping
Acrobatics
Cloak of Darkness
Cloak of Fear
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Osbidian Shield
Tough
Of those, I can probably lose Cloak of Darkness, Combat Jumping and Acrobatics before my build starts getting seriously hampered. Those three are fairly irreverent though, because a good toggle dropping Blaster can strip me of most of my shields very quickly, and depending on their damage types/secondary effects they only need to get one lucky toggle down to screw me over. Ever lost Murky Cloud just before an Energy Blapper punchs you? Not fun.
Thats /DA's major weakness. Once those toggles are down I have nothing to fall back on apart from my self heal, which isn't really great if I'm only in range of one person or its still recharging. Regen, Invuln and SR have all got some passive damage mitigation.
I have health.
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Just imagine the fun you'll be having in PvP when your toggles start getting dropped every other minute. Oh, the fun we have!!!
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I don't PvP much but isn't having lots of toggles in PvP an advantage as there is less chance of the all important mez protection being dropped? This is from my Inv tank with 6 toggles. However it is a very irritating advantage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, because I have very few "frivolous" toggles. And, seeing as theres no audio cue to tell you when somethings gone down, you have to be constantly watching your status bar to see whats up and whats down.
I run the following toggles in PvP:
Focussed Accuracy
Combat Jumping
Acrobatics
Cloak of Darkness
Cloak of Fear
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Osbidian Shield
Tough
Of those, I can probably lose Cloak of Darkness, Combat Jumping and Acrobatics before my build starts getting seriously hampered. Those three are fairly irreverent though, because a good toggle dropping Blaster can strip me of most of my shields very quickly, and depending on their damage types/secondary effects they only need to get one lucky toggle down to screw me over. Ever lost Murky Cloud just before an Energy Blapper punchs you? Not fun.
Thats /DA's major weakness. Once those toggles are down I have nothing to fall back on apart from my self heal, which isn't really great if I'm only in range of one person or its still recharging. Regen, Invuln and SR have all got some passive damage mitigation.
I have health.
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The real problem is, is that toggledrop attacks are:
1) 100% chance om some, which is baaaad mkay?
2) have status effects. that means, that once obsidian shield drops (which it seems to do more than.. say 'tough') you loose ALL your toggles.
so instead of being
100-75-50 for 1-2-3 drops (i think some blaster attacks are that), they turn into 100-75-66* for 1-2-ALL toggles, which is WAY too much imho
*numbers made up. the point is that with those chances it turns into an toggledrop ALL, NO im not calculating them, let a wizkid do that. wait, i am, i should be done in like half an hour :P.
to be continued.
e.g im gonna calculate what the chance is that ALL toggles drop (due to obsidian falling) with a 100-75-50 attack.
@Shift
Shift 50 DM/DA Scrapper ][ TTL 50 Kat/Reg Scrapper ][ Shabriel 50 Peacebringer ][ Ion Shift 46 Rad/Rad Corruptor ][ Thermal Shift 35 Fire/Fire Blaster
"A Scrapper is a lot like a chainsaw. Somewhat hard to handle, incredibly dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane."
[ QUOTE ]
e.g im gonna calculate what the chance is that ALL toggles drop (due to obsidian falling) with a 100-75-50 attack.
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I make it approx. 27.6%
And yes, I am bored. Since you ask...
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
!!!!!DISCLAIMER!!!!!!
Down at the bottom 
!!!!!!DISCLAIMER!!!!!
Right, i tried to figure something out, and the result so devastates me, that im not sure if i was right. So please correct me (if im wrong).
This assumes a few things.
1: A Blaster fires his 2 secondairy toggledrop attacks, after which he fires (if not included in the toggledrops) a status effect attack that will drop all toggles if it hits.
2: the 2 attacks are 100-75-50 and 75-50 in % chance of dropping a 1st, 2nd (and 3rd) toggle.
3: Im not sure how toggledropping works, but im doing this the way that seems most logical to me. it eliminates the toggles after eachother, if the drop takes effect (e.g. the 'chance draw' results in 'positive' or '1')
Right, i run 7 toggles while PvPing namely:
1 Combat Jumping
2 Acrobatics
3 Tough
4 Dark Embrace
5 Obsidian Shield
6 Murky Cloud
7 Cloak of Fear
(8 Death Shroud, but not available to me in Warburg)
The clue to this is Obsidian Shield falling. without it, any status effect can take place (in blasters case mostly disorient and hold, which will go through Acros Mag1 RES to hold easily) and thus dropping ALL toggles, rendering you useless, and letting you die fast.
Blaster fires of his 1st attack.
100% chance that 1 toggle will drop. there is a (1/7) chance that that toggle is Obsidian Shield.
1.0*(1/7) = 0.14
75% chance that a 2nd toggled will drop.
(1/6) chance that that toggle is Obsidian Shield
0.75*(1/5) = 0.125
50% chance that 3rd toggle will drop
(1/5) chance that this toggle is Obsidian Shield
0.50*(1/5) = 0.1
Adding these up comes to 0.14 + 0.125 + 0.1 = 0.365
That is a 36.5% chance of rendering you useles. WITH 1 (or 2 in some cases) ATTACK(S).
but wait, he has a 2nd toggledropper.
So if after the 1st attack, Obsidian Shield isnt dropped, we go on.
So now we have 4 Toggles left.
2nd attack.
75% Chance of dropping a toggle.
(1/4) that this toggle is Obsidian Shield.
0.75*(1/4) = 0.1875
50% Chance of dropping another toggle.
(1/3) Chance that this toggle is Obsidian Shield
0.50*(1/3) = 0.167
Adding those 2 up to what we had 0.365 + 0.1875 + 0.167 = 0.7195.
yes ladies and gentleman, toggledropping and status effects allow a blaster with only 3 specific attack to hit you (because as /DA you are RES based and have no defence, and what little you have can be negated by Aim and Build UO) and have a 71.95% chance of rendering you useless and almost having a certain kill.
Right, now that wasnt fair, because the 1st attack doesnt drop 3 toggles all the time.
lets get a better look. again, assuming all 3 attacks hit (which isnt to hard to imagine)
After the 1st attack, you loose on avarage: 2.25 toggles (1.0 + 0.75 + 0.50)
That means that on avarage, you have (in my case) 4.75 toggles left, and not 4.
Right, lets set up a formula (this is prolly gonna look complicated)
A 1st attacks chance to put 1 toggle down. 100% being 1.0
B 1st attacks chance to put a 2nd toggle down. 100% being 1.0
C 1st attacks chance to put a 3rd toggle down. 100% being 1.0
D 2nd attacks chance to put 1 toggle down. 100% being 1.0
E 2nd attacks chance to put a 2nd toggle down. 100% being 1.0
n The number of toggles you have on.
X The chance of the 1st attack dropping obsidian shield.
m The number of toggles you started with - A+B+C (e.g. what on avarage you would have left after the 1st attack)
Y The chance of the 2nd attack dropping obsidian shield after the 1st one failed.
Z The chance of almost certain blaster victory over a /DA scrapper.
1st Attack: (A*(1/n))+(B*(1/(n-1)))+(C*(1/(n-2))) = X
2nd Attack: (D*(1/m))+(E*(1/(m-1))) = Y
X + Y = Z
So taking the figures i thought were correct:
A = 1.00 (im certain of this one tho)
B = 0.75
C = 0.50
D = 0.75
E = 0.50
n = 7
m = 4.75
1st Attack: (1.00*(1/7))+(0.75*(1/(7-1)))+(0.50*(1/(7-2))) = 0.3679
2nd Attack: (0.75*(1/4.75))+(0.50*(1/(4.75-1))) = 0.2912
0.3679 + 0.2912 = 0.6591
So there you have it: 0.6591 or almost 2/3rds of the time that the /DA scrapper with 7 toggles has NO chance of winning at all.
Isnt that just WRONG.
!!!!!DISCLAIMER!!!!!!
I'm a 17 year old boy who is still in school, this stuff may be utterly and completely wrong. Also, i've made quite a few assumptions, some of which imho are valid. Such as the way toggledropping attacks work and the blaster always hitting. Others werent THAT acceptible, but still acceptable enough for me to make this calculation. Again, this could be utter bullcrap, but this could also be the proof that toggledropping is overpowered. yes, i can take break frees, but i'd rather stack something usefull, and i dont like going to zone to get them every 20 blaster encounters. And if all of this proves to be wrong, that i still have a point i stand by: CoH is a statistics game, it looks nice, but it still is. 100% is a WRONG number in any statistics game. A /DA scrapper wont have any defence, and the 1/20 chance to miss isnt of importance, as that means you will hit 19 times more than you miss. Toggles are EVERYTHING for a /DA scrapper, losing 1 or 2 is managable (if they arent the wrong one) but losing more is fatal. If any of the Devs read this, please consider this, as /DA isnt the only set affected by this. Toggles are a big part of this game and the fun we have in it. Letting them be dropped with a near to certain 'possibility' it not fun.
!!!!!!DISCLAIMER!!!!!
Comment
Edit: Offcourse this is in some aspects worse for regen and invuln, and in some aspects less worse. /SR gets it lucky break and wins this time.
Regen + Invuln: Less toggles, and thus more chance of the status effect toggle dropping, but they have passives that (altho they are minor) keep them alive THAT much longer
/SR: Less toggles, AND passives. but wait, those are DEF, so even if the toggles get dropped, they still have a greater chance of surviving. Go SR!
@Shift
Shift 50 DM/DA Scrapper ][ TTL 50 Kat/Reg Scrapper ][ Shabriel 50 Peacebringer ][ Ion Shift 46 Rad/Rad Corruptor ][ Thermal Shift 35 Fire/Fire Blaster
"A Scrapper is a lot like a chainsaw. Somewhat hard to handle, incredibly dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane."
[ QUOTE ]
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e.g im gonna calculate what the chance is that ALL toggles drop (due to obsidian falling) with a 100-75-50 attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
I make it approx. 27.6%
And yes, I am bored. Since you ask...
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i got 36.6 for the first attack, you made a typo?
anyway, adding the 2nd rampes it up to about 2/3rds
for explanation see the above.
@Shift
Shift 50 DM/DA Scrapper ][ TTL 50 Kat/Reg Scrapper ][ Shabriel 50 Peacebringer ][ Ion Shift 46 Rad/Rad Corruptor ][ Thermal Shift 35 Fire/Fire Blaster
"A Scrapper is a lot like a chainsaw. Somewhat hard to handle, incredibly dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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e.g im gonna calculate what the chance is that ALL toggles drop (due to obsidian falling) with a 100-75-50 attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
I make it approx. 27.6%
And yes, I am bored. Since you ask...
[/ QUOTE ]
i got 36.6 for the first attack, you made a typo?
anyway, adding the 2nd rampes it up to about 2/3rds
for explanation see the above.
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Nope, your calculations look fine. I was working from Question's 9 starting toggles.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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e.g im gonna calculate what the chance is that ALL toggles drop (due to obsidian falling) with a 100-75-50 attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
I make it approx. 27.6%
And yes, I am bored. Since you ask...
[/ QUOTE ]
i got 36.6 for the first attack, you made a typo?
anyway, adding the 2nd rampes it up to about 2/3rds
for explanation see the above.
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Nope, your calculations look fine. I was working from Question's 9 starting toggles.
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filling in Qs 9 toggles (does anyone think thats mad much?
1st Attack: (1.00*(1/9))+(0.75*(1/(9-1)))+(0.50*(1/(9-2))) = 0.2763
2nd Attack: (0.75*(1/6.75))+(0.50*(1/(6.75-1))) = 0.1981
0.2763 + 0.1981 = 0.4744
which would still give you a 50ish % chance. a helluvalot considering its a sure win.
@Shift
Shift 50 DM/DA Scrapper ][ TTL 50 Kat/Reg Scrapper ][ Shabriel 50 Peacebringer ][ Ion Shift 46 Rad/Rad Corruptor ][ Thermal Shift 35 Fire/Fire Blaster
"A Scrapper is a lot like a chainsaw. Somewhat hard to handle, incredibly dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane."
If you can see a toggle I can drop, I'd be happy to hear it.
I need Combat Jumping for Immobilsation Protection.
I need Acrobatics for Knockback Protection.
I need Osbidian Shield for Mez and Psi Protection.
I need Murky Cloud for Energy/Elements and End Drain Protection.
I need Dark Embrace for S/L Protection.
I need Tough to shore up my S/L Protection.
I need Cloak of Darkness for +Perception.
I need Cloak of Fear to make me good in PvP.
I need Focussed Accuracy because it is teh roxxorz.
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If you can see a toggle I can drop, I'd be happy to hear it.
I need Combat Jumping for Immobilsation Protection.
I need Acrobatics for Knockback Protection.
I need Osbidian Shield for Mez and Psi Protection.
I need Murky Cloud for Energy/Elements and End Drain Protection.
I need Dark Embrace for S/L Protection.
I need Tough to shore up my S/L Protection.
I need Cloak of Darkness for +Perception.
I need Cloak of Fear to make me good in PvP.
I need Focussed Accuracy because it is teh roxxorz.
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Well I may not be able to see a toggle you can drop, but I sure do see a fair few I can! 
I really really really hate Blasters, especially the stealthy gits who drop out of the air while your facing someone else and clobber you.
Damn, Im glad ProfC quit.
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If you can see a toggle I can drop, I'd be happy to hear it.
I need Combat Jumping for Immobilsation Protection.
I need Acrobatics for Knockback Protection.
I need Osbidian Shield for Mez and Psi Protection.
I need Murky Cloud for Energy/Elements and End Drain Protection.
I need Dark Embrace for S/L Protection.
I need Tough to shore up my S/L Protection.
I need Cloak of Darkness for +Perception.
I need Cloak of Fear to make me good in PvP.
I need Focussed Accuracy because it is teh roxxorz.
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You could possibly drop Combat Jumping as I think Cloak of Darkness provide Immobilsation Protection too since I5. However with the 4.0% defence 3 slotted, the tiny endurance cost, the tiny recharge time, non existant activation time and the fact that you need to take it to get Acrobatics it's not worth getting rid of.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
In my experience, if I run CJ and CoD I never get immobilised unless someones really stacking it on me. I get immobilised all the time through just CoD (And guess whose mez resists just got nerfed...) but less through CJ when just thats running.
I don't think the CoD cuts it as our sole immobilisation protection.
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In my experience, if I run CJ and CoD I never get immobilised unless someones really stacking it on me. I get immobilised all the time through just CoD (And guess whose mez resists just got nerfed...) but less through CJ when just thats running.
I don't think the CoD cuts it as our sole immobilisation protection.
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I suspect they are both mag 1-3 and both have immob resistance. So both >>> none. I wasn't really considering dropping combat jumping as it is really such a fantastic power, very much a jack of a few trades and master of none, to the point that I got it on my speedster tank for 2 of the effects ( +jump and defence ). In fact I think I only have 2 characters without it.
I tried out Cloak of Fear last night. I was really impressed, even with just an ACC in it. The end cost wasn't as excessive as I thought it would be either. It seemed to make the difference between the build feeling a bit rubbish ( at level 27 ) and feeling good ( at lvl 28 ).
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
CoF is even better in PvP. A DM/DA is the main reason people complain about Fear...go make those complaints justified 
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CoF is even better in PvP. A DM/DA is the main reason people complain about Fear...go make those complaints justified
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Out of curiousity can a DM/DA get you ( also a DM/DA ) feared or is your fear resistance good enough? Also even if they weren't feared I'm sure the -ACC they are getting from ToF and CoF + attacks would also [censored] them off something chronic.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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CoF is even better in PvP. A DM/DA is the main reason people complain about Fear...go make those complaints justified
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Out of curiousity can a DM/DA get you ( also a DM/DA ) feared or is your fear resistance good enough? Also even if they weren't feared I'm sure the -ACC they are getting from ToF and CoF + attacks would also [censored] them off something chronic.
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Used to be the case that it'd take them so long that it wasnt really worth it. Now, Im getting Feared by Spectral Terror so yes, I'd say its very very possible.
Ah, just seen this thread.
My DM/DA is SL31. I am now planning my I6 respec, because without perma-hasten, my 3 attacks (boxing, smite and shadow maul) do not cut it. I know I will get Midnight Grasp @ 32, but thats not helping me to get the 200K I need to get to lvl 32.
My questions are:
Is it worth getting touch of fear for use in PvP? I have PvP'd my D3 a fare bit and just stacking the 2 fear attacks and the debuffs makes just about every one useless.
I was thinking of getting cloak of darkness for the stealth and the +perception. From the above posts I assume it is.
To take the two above powers, I would have to loose some other things. My initial plan was to ditch boxing and tough, but as mentioned above, tough appears to be useful.
I can't see a way to get cloak of darkness withough loosing tough or cloak of fear.
Or I wait until lvl 32, take Midnight Grasp and then loose boxing and tough in favor of cloak of darkness and either touch of fear or acrobatics.
I do plan on having all of the above powers at some point, but which is more useful for PvP at this level.
Sorry for ramble, but hey I'm sure you've seen the style of my posts before.
Yes, All my toggles are always on.. takes me about an hour to turn then all on before a mish though..
8 or 9 toggles cant rem now....click <yeah...be ready in a sec>.. click...<im coming....click....<omw......click...<just one more....click....<TIMED MISSION FAILED>....click...<What happend?...click...
Sorry I'll get my coat.. (if i can find the toggle for it)