When is clue etc info transferred to the char?

A discussion in another thread prompted sone thought about the nature of information delivery in the MA. I had sort of vaguely assumed that generally, MAuthors (and Players) treated clue drops etc in much the same way as I. Now, however, I'm wondering if this is the case, and I thought it night make for an interesting discussion.

I'd like to define some terms before I set out my own view/approach, to avoid if possible any misunderstanding.

Player = human playing the game we call City of Heroes.
Character, char, toon, hero, villain = er, the character lol. Not the human controlling him/her/it.
Clue = the in-game events known as 'clues' which appear as text boxes in your clue window.
Info = the information conveyed to the character or the player by means of a clue, an entry or exit popup, Mob dialogue, a system message, or any other MA text delivery mechanic.

My own approach to info transferred during an arc is broadly based on the thinking that the character should be learning the info at roughly the same time as the player. Further, the info can be considered learned by the character roughly at the time the clue or other info delivery mechanism appears.

Anyone have any ideas or comments, or use any unorthodox methods of delivering info to player or character?

Eco

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MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

I don't suppose I understand the question or how a clue would be treated differently besides the "I never read", "I always read immediately", and the "I read them eventually" types of players. But I'll give it a shot...

I don't particularly care for mob dialog as a way to convey important clues. I'm thinking they should be flavor or summarized in an appropiate real clue (end-of-mission for patrols). That's just my opinion based on seeing how lost they can become in a team environment.

It is also dawning on me that the order of your objectives as placed in the mission may have an effect on what order your clues are listed in your Clues window. That would have a big effect on clue-reader-type players, especially the ones that don't read them as they get them.

That would be unfortunate as I was led to believe that building from the back forward worked best to reserve spawn points for your important objectives. However I'm coming to believe that order not only effects clues but also the order players will *generally* encounter your objectives and is at least as important as the Placement setting if not more so.

All that has only started dawning on me in the last few days. I haven't had time to systematically test it. Maybe someone else knows for sure if I'm imagining it or not. If not then I have some mission cleanups to do... I really wish we could drag and drop objective order just like we can mission order.

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I don't particularly care for mob dialog as a way to convey important clues. I'm thinking they should be flavor or summarized in an appropiate real clue (end-of-mission for patrols). That's just my opinion based on seeing how lost they can become in a team environment.

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While sometimes mob dialogue can be important, especially in the case of "overheard" conversations between people who aren't inclined to be helpful to the character, I agree that it should be repeated in a clue.

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It is also dawning on me that the order of your objectives as placed in the mission may have an effect on what order your clues are listed in your Clues window. That would have a big effect on clue-reader-type players, especially the ones that don't read them as they get them.

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It does. It also affects the order they appear in the Nav bar, which I consider important. I tend to put the primary objectives first (for example, if the contact says, "I need you to rescue this guy, and while you're there try to find out what the villain's plan is," I would want the nav to read "rescue the guy, find the villain's plan")

Also, I believe I saw somewhere that triggered objectives may not work properly if the triggered objective is placed before the objective that triggers it.

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However I'm coming to believe that order not only effects clues but also the order players will *generally* encounter your objectives and is at least as important as the Placement setting if not more so.

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What are you basing this theory on? The spawning patterns in your own missions?

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I really wish we could drag and drop objective order just like we can mission order.

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As do I. Mostly because of the nav bar thing. I've come to accept that the clues I get will never be neatly lined up in the order I got them, which is why your clues should indicate where the information came from.

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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

Glad you said "theory" because that's all it is and yes, from patterns in one of my missions.

In a three story office the thing listed as front was in the back the thing listed as middle was in the front and the thing listed as back was in the middle... which happened to also be their order in the mission architect. I rearranged them and now they seem (on 1 try) to be showing up in a more appropriate order.

However, I have to admit that other missions do show up in the right order despite being scrambled in the architect... but those tend to be simpler missions with only a couple of objectives.

I never even thought of the nav bar thing. Important point.

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In a three story office the thing listed as front was in the back the thing listed as middle was in the front and the thing listed as back was in the middle... which happened to also be their order in the mission architect. I rearranged them and now they seem (on 1 try) to be showing up in a more appropriate order.



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It could be a problem with that particular map. I had a mission in one of my arcs, on a 3-story lab map, where a destructible object set to spawn "middle" would consistently spawn in front. There were several middle spawn points available, which were not being used by other objectives. When I switched to a different (smaller) 3-story lab map, the object would consistently spawn on the second floor, where I wanted it.

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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

Qr when I settle on a map for a mission, the first thing I do is a test run for back, front and middle spawns for each type of objective Im going to use in that mission. Eg I'll set a collection called 'front' to front, another called 'middle' to middle, and one called 'back' to back. I do this with all the types of objective because sometimes you'll get for example back collection spawning in the middle but back captives spawning at back.

Once I've set these up I run through the mission 8-10 times and nite down the places the objectives have spawned. Mapping out the correct places to set spawns before I start building my missions helps no end in dealing with objective order and clue order.

In my experience of this so far, I'd say that most maps are actually consistent, even if they're consistently wrong lol

it's annoying that we have to do this extra work, but just think of the teeth-gnashing we'll go thru if (when?) they fix all the spawn points and our missions are then all wrong again!

Eco

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MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

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In my experience of this so far, I'd say that most maps are actually consistent, even if they're consistently wrong lol

it's annoying that we have to do this extra work, but just think of the teeth-gnashing we'll go thru if (when?) they fix all the spawn points and our missions are then all wrong again!

Eco

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You mean all the teeth-gnashing YOU will have to go through. I make sure I pick maps where front is front, middle is middle and back is back.

If they fix all the spawn points I will just have more maps to choose from.

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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

imo in order to understand clues... you have to go back in time a bit...

back in the early days of mmo's (well at least theones I played)... there were no arrows or markers or BFG NEON signs saying...

NEXT MISSION HERE DUMMY!!!

you had to read the clue and watch mob chat (or go online and find a walkthrough)... to figure out where/what the next thing to do was... but that really omg suxed.. so basically you had your game in one window and the walkthrough on the other (or a 2nd pc )

now that we have neon signs and devs holding our c.... err hands... the clues and mob chat is there for the benefit of the hardcore RP'ers... not saying thats a bad thing... but imo I just wanna move along and kill stuff and let God sort it out (he can read the clues as well)

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You are absolutely correct. But when writing an arc for a broad audience you need clues if you want your arc to be more than a "map with a bunch of stuff to kill".

I like to think that a large portion* of the players prefer things to make some sort of sense and the various clue types go a long way toward doing that. Those that don't read clues won't care either way but everyone else will.

*Note I said large portion and not most or all or anything else that may be seen as trolling

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In my experience of this so far, I'd say that most maps are actually consistent, even if they're consistently wrong lol

it's annoying that we have to do this extra work, but just think of the teeth-gnashing we'll go thru if (when?) they fix all the spawn points and our missions are then all wrong again!

Eco

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You mean all the teeth-gnashing YOU will have to go through. I make sure I pick maps where front is front, middle is middle and back is back.

If they fix all the spawn points I will just have more maps to choose from.

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Lol yeah, you're right. Could you tell me the maps you use, so I can note them for future use? I really should make a list lol.

Eco.

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MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

With so many maps in the MA with no clear definition of front, middle & back, it's extremely difficult to lay things out the way we want them to work. As far as the order of clues showing up in the list is concerned, they show up in the exact order that they were entered into the MA, no matter what order the player finds them in. If a player decides to stealth through a mission and misses triggers along the way, the clues still show up in the order that they were placed in the MA. If the player finds the last item first or the first item last, it doesn't make a bit of difference in the way they display. Trying to make them show up in a 'logical' order is fairly impossible on most if not all maps.

If we're going to be so obsessive about the order that we think they should be displayed in the list, to the point of it affecting our rating of a mission, then I don't think the MA is the problem. Some things are completely out of the author's control and we just have to live with them as they are.

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No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback

All I meant was that if I want to accomodate players that don't read clues right away, making sure they show up in order to make a cohesive story (assuming order matters and I think most clues should stand on their own) is something to think about.

In the past I didn't think it mattered and I'd frequently build from the back forward or as things occurred to me, or I'd delete one to create another while testing or whatever. Now I'm seeing that, assuming it matters, I should try to make sure the clued objectives are in the right reading order.

I think the point about the order of the nav text is also valid. My wife depends on the list a lot and I assume lots of others do too.

The problem of course is that it's virtually impossible to change the order after publishing. Even before publishing it means modifying a text file outside the game and hoping you don't mess it up somehow.

Did that make sense? It's more a sense of polish than a requirement. I imagine the majority of players wouldn't even notice.

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It would certainly make it much easier if we could move objectives around in the MA like we can move missions around. I tend to write on the fly and add objectives as I go along. If I have to be concerned about where those things will fall in the nav/clue list when I'm done, because some people might down-rate my arc if they don't follow the proper order, then I will probably have to reenter them all in the proper order after I finally finish writing it. God forbid I should have to add another objective, in the beginning or even the middle, after someone makes a suggestion to me after it's been published.

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No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback

I don't care if people will downrate my arc, I cut/paste my objectives into the proper order because it bugs my eyes to have a messy nav bar and clue list in my arc.

Although I don't down-rate other people's arcs for having stuff in an order that seems illogical to me.

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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

Note that in i15 you'll be able to see exactly where all the spawn points are in the editor's mini-map display. There are two symbols - one for bosses/ambushes/etc and one for captives/allies/etc - and three colors to tell you what location they correspond to.

It's pretty informative - some of the maps have pretty bizarre notions of "front" and "back".

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And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines

It's like Eva said... it's more for polish than because someone might down rate. I would say that no one would down rate for something so minor but sadly I think some people might. There isn't a lot we can do about people like that though so I'm not going to worry about it.

KD - GREAT news about the color-coding in i15. That together with smaller custom groups and being able to semi-customize standard mobs makes me excited to finally see it and how it might improve my arcs.

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I actually prefer to avoid using clues whenever possible. In my personal opinion, having to open the clue window interrupts the pacing of the game. The alternative to this is to just leave the clue window open, but that contributes to screen clutter. It's not a huge deal, but at bottom, I think clues make for a less streamlined mission experience.

My newer arc (197183, Threefold Rule, which people should pleeeeease go play) actually manages to tell a coherent, cohesive, and (I hope) quality story without using a single clue. The lack of clues is partly due to a lack of space (the story arc comes pretty close to 100% of the space allotment), but also because, really, the story didn't need clues and functions very well without them.

But this'll vary depending on the needs of the stories. I'm currently working on an arc designed to be very cyberpunk, which will be very clue-heavy, since the player will be required to sift through a lot of hacked datafiles and the like. If you're telling a story in a genre (such as mysteries, in particular) that by their nature require the hero to inspect lots of, well, clues, then of course they're going to be very appropriate.

One way to think about whether or not you need clues is to consider their effect on pacing. If you want your story to have slower segments where the hero must look over her collected information and try to divine the meaning of them, then clues can be very useful for that purpose, and can be very effective for making the character feel like an actual investigator, rather than just a goon.

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I saw in one arc the author had used clue titles such as 'Mission 1 Clue#1' and things like that to make it orderly.

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Enjoy your day please.