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Not to mention the restists smashing/lethal gets vs engery damage. But I've only got two MMs in the 40s and four 50s of various ats so what do I know 
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not an issue. thugs powers recharge in half the time, animate faster, do more base dmg, have double assault from the enforcers and you can slot an achille's heel -resist into enforcers which gives them a total of 12 powers to keep it up. against a single target it's got an over 90% uptime. combine that with acid mortar with another achille's heel proc and you're looking at eb's with -60% resistance debuffed. and the brute's superior single target attack chain helps to push thugs passed bots substantially vs. a tough single eb or av
for the comparison:
cones and aoe's
tier 1:
bots - 1 cone, 16s recharge
thugs - 1 cone, 10s recharge, 1 aoe 6s recharge, 1 cone 16s recharge, 1 aoe 16s recharge
tier 2:
bots - 1 aoe low dmg, 16s recharge
enforcers - 1 cone 10s recharge, 1 cone 20s recharge, 1 aoe 20s recharge
tier 3:
bots - 1 aoe 25s recharge, 2 aoe's 16s recharge, 1 cone 10s recharge
thugs - 1 aoe 20s recharge
so by my math, bots have 6 aoe's with an average recharge of 16.5s. thugs have 8 aoe's with an average recharge of 14.75
single target wise we have the following (and not counting the brawl they all get):
tier 1:
bots - 1 4s recharge, 1 8s recharge
thugs - 1 2s recharge, 1 6s recharge (red tomax lists a third with the same name as the first but with a 3s recharge. it's prob just an upgrade to that single power as i've never seen them cycle more than two different single target attacks)
tier 2:
bots - 1 6s recharge, 1 10s recharge
enforcers - 1 4s recharge, 1 8s recharge
tier 3:
bots - 1 4s recharge
thugs - 1 2s recharge, 1 4s recharge, 1 8s recharge, 1 8s recharge, 1 25s recharge
now what's really crazy is when you adjust the animation times for arcanatime of all these powers as well as realize that they dont begin to recharge until after they have fully animated - then one really see's how thugs overtakes on nearly everything.
now dont get me wrong - bots doesnt suck. WHEN incendiary swarm missiles are up and IF the assault bot doesnt drop it on that one single mob out of range of the rest of the pack so that you dont get the burn patches, the fact it does 4x the dmg of the arsonist fire bomb patches means they can potentially melt packs faster
but when it's not up, the thug cones especially if you are taking the time to position everything correctly tend to take over. and single target it's not even a contest.
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bots isnt so hot against an av unless you pair it with a secondary that can debuff a lot. why you may ask?
not so great single target damage and nearly every bot attack and ability has a long recharge compared to every other primary but merc controls.
can it? yes. but it's not just av's that will drive you insane. widdershins and biff as an EB will make you want to punch a baby
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Once you get to level 32 bots have incredible dps. Burn batch and missle swarm plus full auto lasers = dead av. But you still need to debuff their regen and defense.
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yes i know this. ih ave two level 50 bots fully io'd out. they stil lhave the longest recharging attack chains of all the primaries and is why thugs WILL outdamage them on any lengthy fights even th ough they do mostly lethal damage.
but hey what the hell would i know right? i mean i've only got a thugs/traps guide from 07 that's still valid today. i'v eonly got 10 level 50 mm's 8 of them fully io'd out, 4 of them having done all the dev created content and have nothing left but AE and newspaper missions. clearly...CLEARLY..i never speak from post 32 or post 40 experience.
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I remember reading that assault bot has 2 different blasts that each does around 1000% -regen or so.
Isn't that huge in an AV fight and wouldn't that make the little extra damage thugs do over time, not matter?
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one is 500%, the double is 1000%. 30s each. but he's gotta quit messing around with the flamethrower to actually use them.
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That's very true but I think he doesn't spend a whole 30 seconds using flamethrower, so I am sure it isn't hard for him to keep both of those -regen debuffs on an AV.
That is huge and that is probably why it always seems that bots/traps is the AV king. Energy damage + more -regen to add to poison trap.
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Anyone solo without using their personal 3 shooties or a shootie from a patron set?
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I do. Never took any of the primary attack powers. Didn't take any pp attacks either. Bots/traps. I use fitness, presence, first aid, speed pools. I prefer the ST taunt from presence for the faster recharge and slotted with the psi damage proc. That's the closest thing I get to an attack other than tripmine but you won't see me dropping those in AV fights generally.
Siracco PP btw. His shield is love...
Never met an AV I didn't like.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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I remember reading that assault bot has 2 different blasts that each does around 1000% -regen or so.
Isn't that huge in an AV fight and wouldn't that make the little extra damage thugs do over time, not matter?
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They only have a 30% or so chance to do the -recharge, so it's not guaranteed. Also, AVs resist -recharge by 85%, so you're looking at only -150% when it does land. It does help, especially against AVs with no enhanced regen, but it's still a lot better paired with a secondary that has debuffs since the plasma blasts alone won't usually keep them shut down full time. And especially against AVs with enhanced recharge where you need over 150% to shut them down.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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...They only have a 30% or so chance ....
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Fighting against Robot MMs, some battles I'd see stacked -regen, other entire battles ZERO -regen at all. That inconsistency will translate over to AVs. The average MM should be able to break near even vs an AVs 95 hps regen. So as long as you can keep the -regen on there more often than not, you'll eventually win. However, you really want to win in less than 10 minutes, and to do that I personally would think you would want more consistent -regen than what the A-bot does alone.
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Anyone solo without using their personal 3 shooties or a shootie from a patron set?
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My current build is level 42 and I haven't yet picked up my patron attack power nor any of my shooties. I have soloed 9 avs so far, including Infernal.
However, I do have both ghost axe and nemmie staff, which does alot of ranged damage.
The Case Against Hardcase- arc id: 438272
Clowning Around- arc id: 408447
Down the Rabbit Hole- arc id: 193055
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Anyone solo without using their personal 3 shooties or a shootie from a patron set?
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With Bots/Traps, easily. Poison Trap + the Assault Bot's plasma blasts for -regen and Acid Mortar for -resist (with an Achilles proc for more -resist) means the bots do plenty of damage.
With Bots/FF? Never tried... my Bots/FF is still a lowbie. Probably possible as long as you have enough recharge and duration in a patron immobilize to keep the AV in the burn patches, but it'd take a while. Without the immobilize I don't see it happening.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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Anyone solo without using their personal 3 shooties or a shootie from a patron set?
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With Bots/Traps, easily. Poison Trap + the Assault Bot's plasma blasts for -regen and Acid Mortar for -resist (with an Achilles proc for more -resist) means the bots do plenty of damage.
With Bots/FF? Never tried... my Bots/FF is still a lowbie. Probably possible as long as you have enough recharge and duration in a patron immobilize to keep the AV in the burn patches, but it'd take a while. Without the immobilize I don't see it happening.
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/ff has the room and the endurance to spare taking a couple of attacks. the other secondaries do not unless you forego a staple power for the sake of a concept.
/Traps can take one attack without too much trouble if you take Stamina of have good +recovery bonuses (you don't even need that if you skip Leadership). Fitting two in will probably require skipping something more useful though, and is really overkill since you can get the one recharging fast enough to cycle Attack -> Web Grenade -> Taunt.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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bots isnt so hot against an av unless you pair it with a secondary that can debuff a lot. why you may ask?
not so great single target damage and nearly every bot attack and ability has a long recharge compared to every other primary but merc controls.
can it? yes. but it's not just av's that will drive you insane. widdershins and biff as an EB will make you want to punch a baby
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Once you get to level 32 bots have incredible dps. Burn batch and missle swarm plus full auto lasers = dead av. But you still need to debuff their regen and defense.
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yes i know this. ih ave two level 50 bots fully io'd out. they stil lhave the longest recharging attack chains of all the primaries and is why thugs WILL outdamage them on any lengthy fights even th ough they do mostly lethal damage.
but hey what the hell would i know right? i mean i've only got a thugs/traps guide from 07 that's still valid today. i'v eonly got 10 level 50 mm's 8 of them fully io'd out, 4 of them having done all the dev created content and have nothing left but AE and newspaper missions. clearly...CLEARLY..i never speak from post 32 or post 40 experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember reading that assault bot has 2 different blasts that each does around 1000% -regen or so.
Isn't that huge in an AV fight and wouldn't that make the little extra damage thugs do over time, not matter?
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one is 500%, the double is 1000%. 30s each. but he's gotta quit messing around with the flamethrower to actually use them.