Nice work, interesting read.
A lot of the changes look like a dart was thrown at a board, while others seem to fit a consistent design principle.
pbaoes certainly got the shaft (other than psw) in the process of removing most aoe prowess from doms, but it is what it is.
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Nice work, interesting read.
A lot of the changes look like a dart was thrown at a board, while others seem to fit a consistent design principle.
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I think it's more a case of some intentional exceptions were missed (that is, Firey Assault and its extra damage) and in some cases the darts were thrown at the board, but not every target was aimed at. Energy was a problem and thus was looked at, but Ice wasn't a problem and thus in some ways there are inconsistencies with the changes made to Energy.
Also, in some cases the changes may have been applied to Dominators without going back to the original powers they came from and analyzing how they fit into the normalization.
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pbaoes certainly got the shaft (other than psw) in the process of removing most aoe prowess from doms, but it is what it is.
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Honestly speaking, I don't see it. The only PBAoEs (outside of PSW) that got a damage reduction also got an increase in radius. I would say the one explains the other. And again, we have a normalization of all PBAoE attacks at a 15 foot radius.
(Okay, also Combustion, but I already said I think that has been given the wrong recharge and End cost values. Honestly, the table seems to show that Combustion was doing more damage and Incinerate was doing way less damage than it should have, although Incinerate could have been intended to be changed into more of a basic attack instead of a final one. I've always wondered by Dominators did not get Cremate)
Whether or not that radius calls for a change to the formula that balances damage to recharge time and End cost, I can't say. But WH and ISC should have the potential to hit more targets now per activation. How often that will occur is probably an issue that should be considered, but it will occur.
/Energy, seems balenced for the most part.
/Fire, is shafted
/Ice, seems balenced except for Ice Sword Circle
/Psy, Mind Probe seems balenced, I think the rest of the set is unbalenced to the extreme buff of TK thrust.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Combustion is clearly worse, it is the same as the tanker version for DS, but with longer rech and end cost. It is 15ft for all AT's. where is the dart landing here?
ISC has a longer rech and higher end cost with a lot less DS. The increased radius may warrant that large of an adjustment, but I'd prefer the 1.55 DS version myself. Not sure where the dart landed for this power either.
Thunderstrike isn't the same attack for brutes as it is for doms, so the comparison doesn't work. The blaster compared to dom versions look identical just with the dom adjusted down a bit for the faster rech. In terms of balancing this dart landed right next to the blaster version.
PSW is a mess right now, we should just wait to see how it turns out.
WH seems to be the only one that is clearly better, with more DS, larger radius and higher rech/end to match. Makes sense as everyone has agreed this power sucked bad before.
You don't have thornburst vs spineburst, so can't compare those attacks.
Perhaps "shaft" is too strong, but taking a hit for the team fits imo.
Now then if all the pbaoe's get bumped up to 16 targets like they should I'll gladly swing my vote.
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Combustion is clearly worse, it is the same as the tanker version for DS, but with longer rech and end cost. It is 15ft for all AT's. where is the dart landing here?
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Well, yeah, it's already 15 feet, it doesn't have to be made 15 feet.
Again, though, the Dominator version of Combustion did MORE damage than the Blaster version. And the differences were essentially in the DoT, the front loaded damage for all three was and still is 0.5. The devs forgot to balance to that, not the total damage with the DoT.
All three versions should have the same recharge and End cost. If the devs want to normalize the damage between Tanker and Blaster that's fine, it can be 1.4. (Or they could raise the Blaster version to 1.7 and make the Dom version 1.5)
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Thunderstrike isn't the same attack for brutes as it is for doms, so the comparison doesn't work.
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They're the same in cast time, radius, and secondary effects, the only real difference is the magnitude of the damage, and how it is split between the single target Smashing portion, and the AoE Energy portion. This has not really changed from the Dominator version, because it has always had the proportions of the Blaster version, the damage is just reduced.
Again, this is so the Dominator can use the attack more often, staying in melee instead of just darting into it for a moment like a Blaster, but it still remains a primarily single target attack. It could have truly been adjusted to be "between" a Blaster and a Tanker by giving it less Smashing damage and more Energy, but the total overall damage is still in the midrange. And the recharge time and End cost have been decreased. If it had been weighted more towards AoE, I would guess it would also have the Tanker version's recharge.
Keep in mind that Electric is the one set that is being adjusted downwards overall, not upwards. Thus, it seems to be performing much better in testing. It is the one Dom Set that is not described as having many more pauses in the attack chain as before, or using more End. It is also doing less DPS, but this seems to be compensated for by the base damage boost. Thunder Strike is the one that we expect to be doing less damage, and recharging more often.
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You don't have thornburst vs spineburst, so can't compare those attacks.
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I stopped short of Thorns since there is no Blaster version. However, I went ahead and added it anyway to my own notes. (Plus, Psi has no melee version, so there you go)
Spine Burst and Thorn Burst are identical. So in fact, Thorn Burst has gotten BETTER, as it does about 0.05 DS more damage than before. And the patch notes are wrong, as they refer to a 3 second recharge time and a 4.37 End cost, which isn't anywhere close to Thorn Burst's current values. So I can't really tell what the recharge and End cost for this boost has been. (Although I'm sure it is some amount)
I'm not going to argue with you, the numbers are right there, you put them up lol.
I'm not sure how you take something with a lower DS, higher rech and higher end cost and call it a happy medium, but ok.
Once again though brute thunderstrike is nothing like dom thunderstrike. You may as well compare poison: poison trap to traps: poison trap. They have the same name, thats about it.
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I'm not going to argue with you, the numbers are right there, you put them up lol.
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In essense, it comes down to this:
Electricity: Less AoE damage. (But then, less damage overall)
Energy: More and greater radius AoE damage.
Fire: Apparently using the wrong recharge time and End cost.
Ice: Less AoE damage, greater radius.
Psionic: Less (obviously) AoE damage
Thorny: A tiny bit better AoE damage.
It's about a wash, 50% up, 50% down. And Starsman's chart shows this a lot better than my power by power comparison. According to him, Ice is getting 2-4% better AoE damage.
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Once again though brute thunderstrike is nothing like dom thunderstrike. You may as well compare poison: poison trap to traps: poison trap. They have the same name, thats about it.
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There is a LOT more in common with Thunderstrike than there is with Poison Trap. Again, both powers have the same animation, same radius, and same secondary effects. They do the same type of damage, but differ in proportion, amount of damage, End cost and recharge. Except for the difference in proportion, the other differences are no greater than that for Charged Brawl for a Blaster and Charged Brawl for a Brute. They are about as similar as, say, Evasion for a Scrapper and Evasion for a Brute. The Brute version has a Taunt aura, the Scrapper version doesn't. But that doesn't mean the other effects aren't identical.
The issues with Fire's end costs definately need to be addressed...
I'm raising the picket for 16 target caps on all Domi PBAoEs. That and some kind of change to Thunderstrike. Piddly 18 damage AoE seems like it'd be better off if it was just a ST extreme damage attack like Total Focus, or switched around to the Brute/Stalker version with better AoE and knockdown.
Who's keeping score?
I see 4 reduced, 1 improved quite a bit, and one wash. Which is exactly as I said in the first post.
And compared to had they just left them as they are on live they are all weaker damage (cept WH? I'd have to look closer) though the increased range is nice on the powers that got it, but the decreased range on psw hurts.
2 got increased range, 1 got decreased range, 3 remain the same. If you were to say the range changes were a wash I'd agree.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on brute TS vs dom TS.
brute TS: medium st, medium aoe, aoe knockdown
dom TS: high st, low aoe, massive aoe knockback
Lots of powers use that animation, I'd say tremor has about as much in common with brute TS than brute TS does with the dom version. But to each their own.
You're basically saying that range increase is not any kind of improvement.
I also think the devs made a miscalculation on Fiery Assault, and when and if they recognize that, it will improve dramatically. Of course, the devs could go the other way and nerf all versions of Combustion and Flares. All powers in a set don't HAVE to have a secondary effect. (Occasionally one of the two initial attacks will not, or will have a different effect, as with Jab)
As for TS, it is the ONLY attack in the game that even DOES both ST and AoE damage. All other AoE attacks do the same damage to the target they do to the others in the AoE. The only real difference is how much more damage is done to the target compared to the rest. And even in the Brute version, there is an appreciable difference.
As for knockback being changed to knockdown, that is standard for most Brute or Tanker attacks. I'd hardly call that a difference.
What if the ST portion of Thunder Strike had been changed to 1.67, and the AoE portion of it changed to 0.7? Would you call it a version of Blaster TS then, or Brute TS? (And honestly, I think this is what SHOULD have been done, if only for the neatness of the numbers)
Range is an improvement for some, for others it is meaningless.
it is certainly an improvement against team spawns, but at a cap of 10 it is still sort of meh in practice. I have zero issues hitting lots of targets with fireswordcircle on my scrapper, no more issues that with footstomp on my ss tank.
What about in solo, where all the dom changes seem to be pushing them? against a spawn of five that range is almost meaningless in actual use. I'd much prefer the damage.
but ymmv.
again we'll just have to agree to disagree about TS, having used the brute and blaster version they really don't play similar at all, but again ymmv. As for kb vs kd, you might hardly consider that a difference, but you seem to be a bit erratic with your difference meter 
.
Your idea for how to balance dom version is fine, doubt it will happen as it is a st focused attack for doms and blasters, but maybe.
I mentioned in the threads about the new Dominator attack changes that it appeared as if the new values were being "normalized" between the Tanker and Blaster damage scales. To confirm this, I put together a table. This lists the damage, recharge and End cost of Tankers, (or Brutes if Tanker didn't have the attack) Dominators (under the new changes) and Blasters, where applicable. In all cases, damage is damage scale, which is independent of AT, and thus the Dom values should lie halfway between those of Tankers and Blasters. I also include which values the original Dominator powers used, as either "Blaster" or "Tanker" if the values match, and what the percentage of the ratio between the two is with the new change. (It should be 50% if my guess is correct)
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Attack Name: Tanker/Brute Dominator Blaster Dominator (old) New Ratio
Dam Rch End Dam Rch End Dam Rch End Dam Rch End
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Electricity:
Charged Brawl 0.84 3 4.368 1.32 6 6.86 1.96 10 10.192 Blaster 42.86%
Havoc Punch 1.32 6 6.846 1.96 10 10.19 2.6 14 13.52 Blaster 50%
Thunder Strike 1.96 18 10.192 2.35 16 15.2 2.98 20 18.512 Blaster 39%
Thunder Strike (ST) 1 2.04 2.56
Thunder Strike (AoE) 0.96 0.31 0.42
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Energy:
Bone Smasher 1.64 8 8.528 1.96 10 10.2 2.6 14 13.52 Tanker 33%
Whirling Hands 1 14 13 1.1 20 18.51 Tanker (radius increased)
Total Focus 3.56 20 18.512 3.88 22 18.51 3.56 20 18.512 (Both versions identical)
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Fire:
Flares 1 4 5.2 1.01 2.2 3.692 Blaster
Incinerate 2.5 10 6.864 2.12 10 10.2 1.81 8 8.528
Combustion 1.3 15 13 1.3 17 16 1.5 15 13 1.7 15 13 0% (Tanker version)
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Ice:
Ice Sword 1.32 6 6.864 1.64 8 8.582 1.96 10 10.192 1.64 8 8.582 50%
Ice Sword Circle 1.55 20 18.512 1.19 22 20.2 1.55 20 18.512 Blaster (Using non-DoT Fire Sword Circle) (radius increased)
Ice Slash 1.96 10 10.192 1.96 10 10.192 Tanker 0% (Tanker version)
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Psionic:
Mind Probe 1.96 10 10.192 1.64 8 8.528 Blaster
Telekinetic Thrust 1.64 8 8.53 0.8 6 6.864 Blaster
Psychic Scream 1.3 16 15.18 1.04 12 11.856 Blaster
Subdue 1.64 8 8.528 1.32 6 6.864 1.64 8 8.528 (Defender version - Blaster is 1/4s/8.528e)
Psychic Shock 1.21 20 18.51 1.1 20 10.192 1.96 10 10.192 (radius decreased - same as Blaster)
</pre><hr />
A few interesting things I see looking at this table: First of all, Ice Sword in Icy Assault is already right on the midpoint. It did not need to be changed. Bone Smasher was only increased in damage by 33%, it still has a relatively low recharge time compared to a Blaster. Most powers can't really be compared, as they are either not available for Blasters, or they are not available for Tankers. In the case of Psi, many of the damage boosts are well above the standard for Blasters, instead of being lower than them. This is obviously due to the nerf to PSW, though.
Fiery Assault seems to be all over the map. Although Incinerate has been brought close to the damage for Tankers, Tankers clearly have a huge Endurance discount on the power. Its End cost should be 10.2, just as the new Dom version, but it is only that of a 6 second recharge attack. This can't be entirely due to the DoT portion of the attack, because that would reduce the recharge as well.
Likewise, while Combustion, although it seems to have the purpose of moving the damage closer to the Tanker version, has gone too far (it equals the Tanker version) and has more recharge and End cost. In fact, the Tanker and Blaster versions are identical except for the damage, which leads me to believe that the DoT is the only thing varied between them. The base damage without that DoT is the same, 0.5, for all versions.
When you add in Flares, it seems like the devs have forgotten that a portion of the Fire attacks' damage is intended to be their secondary effect, and thus not cost additional recharge or End. Flares is balanced like a typical 1 damage scale attack, not a 0.71 scale damage attack. And Combustion originally did MORE damage as a Dominator attack than as a Blaster attack. They've brought it back down into the range between the two, but apparently tried to rebalance to the full 1.3 damage scale.
In some cases I am still concerned about the inconsistencies. Total Focus has been raised in damage, for instance, even though the Tanker and Blaster versions are identical, but Ice Slash remains unchanged, at the Tanker version. Thunder Strike's ratio seems a little low, but then the Brute version actually does more AoE damage than the Blaster version, and the devs may not want a "true" midpoint between them, but just the Blaster version with faster recharge. And the recharge is in fact faster than the Brute version.
I am still analyzing range attacks, but I believe those were adjusted in a similar way.