I have a few 50s of each and honestly its about which build and who is playing it. *classic* tanking is keeping squishies safe with taunt. MM tanking is absorbing the alpha while applying debuffs then turning offensive.
I have a MM build that tanks better than any of my brutes, but that being said I don't have a stone, most are WP. That particular MM is thugs/traps, so I actually *can* play the roll of tank, debuff and damage.
The lack of taunt is the defining problem for sure if that is the goal....but really on a decent enough team, just having someone who can take the alphas is where the worth really is.
edit: started to clean up grammer but the Sangria has sunk in, so be it. heh.
I don't think brutes have gauntlet. I seem to be forever chasing after foes when I play them.
I do agree with you though I think Brutes are better tankers, mm's are closer to controllers than tankers.
Edit: I have a stoner and it is much better than any mm at tanking.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think brutes have gauntlet. I seem to be forever chasing after foes when I play them.
I do agree with you though I think Brutes are better tankers, mm's are closer to controllers than tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Brutes do have some taunt in some attacks, and this was a strange direction to take since they clearly are not tanks but heavy scrappers.
[ QUOTE ]
*classic* tanking is keeping squishies safe with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]Classic Tanking is gaining and maintaining the aggro of a mob and surviving it. Taunt itself is completely optional.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think brutes have gauntlet. I seem to be forever chasing after foes when I play them.
[/ QUOTE ]Gauntlet is definitely there. It's to help Brutes maintain Fury. If you're chasing enemies, it's likely from your teammates causing stuff to run or being past the aggro cap.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*classic* tanking is keeping squishies safe with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]Classic Tanking is gaining and maintaining the aggro of a mob and surviving it. Taunt itself is completely optional.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, it was a generalization to say taunt, I should have been more specific, thanks.
unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.
so no, they arent the tanks. tanks must do all of the following:
grab and hold a mobs attention
survive the incoming dmg
masterminds can only do one. brutes do both with little effort.
I'd really love to see this little effort build of yours. Since you bring up Masterminds needing 1 power from a Power Pool, this little effort build of yours better not include Tough, Weave, Aid Self, or IO sets.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
No, no, no.
This is CoV, we don't subscribe to such class Identities.
The MM takes the alpha, the Dom locks it down, the Brute takes the aggro. Then they all blast the hell out of it.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
The MM being the red side "tank" was even before they had bodyguard mode, the plan was for them to "feed" the minion mobs for the alpha then resummon for the next mob. Understandably this didnt take off because its a retarded and linear strategy.
MMs CAN tank the alpha with BG mode and the right secondary but its kinda pointless when brutes do it infinately better.
I'm running at the bad guys and beating the crap out of them. I don't care whether you think I'm a slapper or a tinkler nor how you think I compare to slappers and tinklers. I don't care about alphas. I don't care about holding aggro. I'm there to tear their arms off and beat stuff up.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*classic* tanking is keeping squishies safe with taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]Classic Tanking is gaining and maintaining the aggro of a mob and surviving it. Taunt itself is completely optional.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think brutes have gauntlet. I seem to be forever chasing after foes when I play them.
[/ QUOTE ]Gauntlet is definitely there. It's to help Brutes maintain Fury. If you're chasing enemies, it's likely from your teammates causing stuff to run or being past the aggro cap.
[/ QUOTE ]
Brute "gauntlet" is single target only and taunts the mob you happen to be punching at the time, Tank gauntlet is AOE so its like confront Vs taunt
[ QUOTE ]
I'd really love to see this little effort build of yours. Since you bring up Masterminds needing 1 power from a Power Pool, this little effort build of yours better not include Tough, Weave, Aid Self, or IO sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
well if you're going to hold your breath until you get your way, why not make the mm petless?
that's how absurd your argument is. brutes tank because they have the taunts. when i play my brutes i always tank on them. it just works out that way - and it's good for fury generation if i've got everything mad at me and in melee range
most brutes take tough and weave. most scrappers also take tough and weave. grow up
the mastermind takes provoke. great. they can taunt 5 targets. so what do you do when the spawn is larget than 5?
lock 'em down with a dom? that hurts fury
i'm sorry you're so butt hurt over something so simple. please note i never said a brutes role is to tank. i've have only said that they do tank. why? because they have 400% taunt on all their attacks including the non-damage attacks like fault and taunt auras. a brute doesnt need to actually take taunt to generate and maintain threat.
if you make a squishy build without tough and weave that's not our fault, now is it
and exactly how well do you think the squishier mm secondaries like poison would tank an 8 man spawn, or even come close to just about any brutes utility in said situation.
brutes tank by default, because it is in the nature of the class to rush in first and build fury fast while beating the snot out of things. if you hit an aoe like foostomp or fsc or even a no-dmg aoe like fault - you just taunted everything in range with a mag 4 taunt.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm running at the bad guys and beating the crap out of them. I don't care whether you think I'm a slapper or a tinkler nor how you think I compare to slappers and tinklers. I don't care about alphas. I don't care about holding aggro. I'm there to tear their arms off and beat stuff up.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are one funny bunny.
[ QUOTE ]
The consensus here appears to be that Brutes are essentially Scrappers and Masterminds are supposed to be the Tankers, but when I actually play red side, I've never encountered a team where the Mastermind was expected to Tank. Teams ALWAYS look to the Brute. Even when I explain I'm damage dealer, I STILL wind up taking point.
The Devs gave us Taunt Auras, like Tankers and Scrappers.
The Devs gave us Taunt, like Tankers and Scrappers.
The Devs gave us Gauntlet in our attacks, like Tankers.
The Devs failed to give Masterminds a tool to control their Aggro themselves.
The Devs failed to give Brutes the tools to survive the Aggro they gather using SOs and their armors, alone.
What gives?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite, we have taunt auras like tanks, but not scrappers. Scrapers draw aggro just from the damage. Brutes and tankers actually have a taunt component. Also brute SR has a taunt aura in evasion, but the scrapper version doesn't.
Our taunt is again like tankers, but not scrappers. Scrappers is only single target.
Brutes don't have gauntlet, we have punchvoke. What we hit we taunt, what tankers hit gets the attention of enemies around the target as well.
Brutes have the ability to survive what aggro they draw. Solo this game is easy for brutes. Teamed Brutes have the same caps as Tankers, so if you are supporting the team as a tank, then they can support your as well.
Masterminds are tanks in the sense of survivability. When they were originally called the tank of CoV they didn't have bodyguard. The idea was to have a minion or two take the alpha then your team wipes out the spawn. As already mentioned this didn't work, for one MM's didn't want to have to resummon every spawn. Then they got bodyguard, which makes a MM the highest HP AT in the game. Then when played well with the right pools they can make good aggro soakers.
Dirges
Err... Scrappers do get Taunt Auras. Against All Odds, Rise to the Challenge, and Invincibility are all Taunt Auras.
[ QUOTE ]
Brute "gauntlet" is single target only and taunts the mob you happen to be punching at the time, Tank gauntlet is AOE so its like confront Vs taunt
[/ QUOTE ]Where are you getting this from? Neither CoD or Mids show any differentg between the two nor does it make sense. A single target taunt is basically just a ranged attack.
[ QUOTE ]
well if you're going to hold your breath until you get your way, why not make the mm petless?
[/ QUOTE ]No, you just said something ridiculous is all and realized it had no merit. You stated MMs needing a single power from a Power Pool to Tank efficiently made the idea of them Tanking in comparison to Brutes because Brutes can do it with LITTLE effort. If it takes LITTLE effort, people wouldn't need Tough/Weave, Aid Self, and spending a few hundred million inf on IO sets. That means you're wrong.
The 5 plus target deal is irrelevant as I've seen pets strip aggro from Tankers. 400% Taunt in their attacks? LOL. There's no such thing in the game. Please, don't argue mechanics when you don't know them. It's Magnitude of 4 with a duration. There is no such thing as 300% or 400% Taunt, Hold, or anything else like that.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
[ QUOTE ]
Err... Scrappers do get Taunt Auras. Against All Odds, Rise to the Challenge, and Invincibility are all Taunt Auras.
[ QUOTE ]
Brute "gauntlet" is single target only and taunts the mob you happen to be punching at the time, Tank gauntlet is AOE so its like confront Vs taunt
[/ QUOTE ]Where are you getting this from? Neither CoD or Mids show any differentg between the two nor does it make sense. A single target taunt is basically just a ranged attack.
[ QUOTE ]
well if you're going to hold your breath until you get your way, why not make the mm petless?
[/ QUOTE ]No, you just said something ridiculous is all and realized it had no merit. You stated MMs needing a single power from a Power Pool to Tank efficiently made the idea of them Tanking in comparison to Brutes because Brutes can do it with LITTLE effort. If it takes LITTLE effort, people wouldn't need Tough/Weave, Aid Self, and spending a few hundred million inf on IO sets. That means you're wrong.
The 5 plus target deal is irrelevant as I've seen pets strip aggro from Tankers. 400% Taunt in their attacks? LOL. There's no such thing in the game. Please, don't argue mechanics when you don't know them. It's Magnitude of 4 with a duration. There is no such thing as 300% or 400% Taunt, Hold, or anything else like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
you're a fool.
gauntlet is the name of the tanker inherent. it makes ALL DMG they do place an aoe taunt on the target
brutes have punchvoke - every attack they get has a taunt to it. since you had the presence of mind to at least open mid's, have you ever wondered why an attack like Jab has a duration? that's the taunt - fool.
and i never used the word 'efficiently' when describing mm's needing to get provoke from the presence pool. christ man at least learn to read.
if you honestly think an MM can tank for a 8 man villain team as well as a brute - prove it. otherwise this is just another internet meme thread
you made a piss-poor internet meme post cutting and pasting a post you made in another similiar thread. total waste of time and effort. when villains were learning the lrsf, they sure as hell werent using MM tanks.
brutes ARE the villainside tanks. i'm sorry y ou made a weaksauce /elec brute that cant stand up to a wet fart. my sm/wp tanks 8 man's constantly and tanks av's for teams constantly. NOBODY can pull threat from her. not mm's, not fulcrum shifted corruptors, not even other brutes unless they actually use the power Taunt.
there is no consensus that masterminds are the villain tanks.
[ QUOTE ]
The consensus here appears to be that Brutes are essentially Scrappers and Masterminds are supposed to be the Tankers, but when I actually play red side, I've never encountered a team where the Mastermind was expected to Tank. Teams ALWAYS look to the Brute. Even when I explain I'm damage dealer, I STILL wind up taking point.
The Devs gave us Taunt Auras, like Tankers and Scrappers.
The Devs gave us Taunt, like Tankers and Scrappers.
The Devs gave us Gauntlet in our attacks, like Tankers.
The Devs failed to give Masterminds a tool to control their Aggro themselves.
The Devs failed to give Brutes the tools to survive the Aggro they gather using SOs and their armors, alone.
What gives?
[/ QUOTE ]
Same here, I have no problem doing it though. Of course, I tend to take point on my scrappers to. just cause teams want to sit around and "talk" or "strategize". Here's my strategy "If it moves, it dies!!"
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
Take your own advice.
[ QUOTE ]
unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.
[/ QUOTE ]My comment was a reference to this statement, not a direct quote.
I know the name of the Tanker inherent. I have one. It's in my signature. Can you not read it? We all know Brute attacks Taunt. I state this in the OP, you imbecile. Pretending I arguing that is just moronic. I was responding to the Brute version being ST as opposed to AoE.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
[ QUOTE ]
Take your own advice.
[ QUOTE ]
unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.
[/ QUOTE ]My comment was a reference to this statement, not a direct quote.
I know the name of the Tanker inherent. I have one. It's in my signature. Can you not read it? We all know Brute attacks Taunt. I state this in the OP, you imbecile. Pretending I arguing that is just moronic. I was responding to the Brute version being ST as opposed to AoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
you're still a fool
oh btw, check out the in game info for any of your brute's attacks.
note the following line:
+400% taunt on target.
are you sharing your account with someone?
you said
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brute "gauntlet" is single target only and taunts the mob you happen to be punching at the time, Tank gauntlet is AOE so its like confront Vs taunt
[/ QUOTE ]Where are you getting this from? Neither CoD or Mids show any differentg between the two nor does it make sense. A single target taunt is basically just a ranged attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
which clearly shows you dont know the difference between the functionality of punchvoke on a brute and gauntlet on a tranker. brutes dont have gauntlet. they have punchvoke - something tankers had before gauntlet.
[ QUOTE ]
Take your own advice.
[ QUOTE ]
unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.
[/ QUOTE ]My comment was a reference to this statement, not a direct quote.
I know the name of the Tanker inherent. I have one. It's in my signature. Can you not read it? We all know Brute attacks Taunt. I state this in the OP, you imbecile. Pretending I arguing that is just moronic. I was responding to the Brute version being ST as opposed to AoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
and where in what you quoted me did i say the following:
[ QUOTE ]
You stated MMs needing a single power from a Power Pool to Tank efficiently
[/ QUOTE ]
i said nothing of efficiency. if you REALLY want to know about mm tanks, go read up on tankerbots guides. otherwise put a sock in it, this meme post is already old.
[ QUOTE ]
are you sharing your account with someone?
[/ QUOTE ]No. Why would you ask this?
[ QUOTE ]
which clearly shows you dont know the difference between the functionality of punchvoke on a brute and gauntlet on a tranker. brutes dont have gauntlet. they have punchvoke - something tankers had before gauntlet.
[/ QUOTE ]Gauntlet and PunchVoke are often called the same thing, especially on the Tanker forum. Also, I never said you were wrong on the matter. I asked where you were getting it from because there's no in-game listing to suggest a difference and I've found the Brute version more effective. My group had a mob aggroed and one guy broke off. I chased him down and starting beating on him with only ST attacks then they all swarmed on me. Didn't even have my aura on.
[ QUOTE ]
My comment was a reference to this statement, not a direct quote.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and where in what you quoted me did i say the following
[/ QUOTE ]Erm, seriously? I say reference and not a direct quote and you ask where the quote is? ...Wow.
http://pbskids.org/readingrainbow/
Have some fun with that. Bookmark it while you're at it too.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
[ QUOTE ]
Where are you getting this from? Neither CoD or Mids show any differentg between the two nor does it make sense. A single target taunt is basically just a ranged attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually CoD does show a difference.
brute
scrapper
Tanker
If you you at the area of effect on the left side you see brutes and scrappers have an effect of character. Tankers on the other hand have sphere, with a radius of 9 feet and max target 5.
I also stand corrected on those 3 powers, but that does not give scrappers taunt auras like the rest. It gives three sets a taunt aura. It is not like any set has a taunt aura in a self only SR ability, or 3 taunt auras in dark aura like tankers.
Also if pets a peeling aggro off a tank, then doesn't that counter your point of MM's not have the aggro control needed to tank?
Dirges
<qr> The flames are getting high in here!
I think it is a pointless debate anyway. CoV doesn't follow the normal class roles like any other MMO or even CoH. Nobody really tanks like in most games. You just don't see the traditional play style here. Most teams just steamroll over mobs and someone takes the alpha. Most of the time it is a Brute, but I have seen MM's do it also. In the 3 years I have been playing I have seen every AT take the alpha on at least one occasion.
I primarily play Brutes and I like to be the first in, but Beyond taking the alpha I don't care if I maintain aggro beyond enough to fuel my fury.
Dunno, on my Thug/Poison MM I often out "tank" brutes. I can even outlast them. In fact I think my MM can outsurvive stuff my soft cap brute or willpower brute can't (don't like stone so I dunno on that) Does that mean I can keep aggro on the LRSF or AVs? No, I see brutes more of surviving long battles and MMs more of alpha takers.
Pinnacle: Hold my beer. Watch this!
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.
MA arc #117314!! Try it nao!!
The consensus here appears to be that Brutes are essentially Scrappers and Masterminds are supposed to be the Tankers, but when I actually play red side, I've never encountered a team where the Mastermind was expected to Tank. Teams ALWAYS look to the Brute. Even when I explain I'm damage dealer, I STILL wind up taking point.
The Devs gave us Taunt Auras, like Tankers and Scrappers.
The Devs gave us Taunt, like Tankers and Scrappers.
The Devs gave us Gauntlet in our attacks, like Tankers.
The Devs failed to give Masterminds a tool to control their Aggro themselves.
The Devs failed to give Brutes the tools to survive the Aggro they gather using SOs and their armors, alone.
What gives?
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender