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Your suggestions, while interesting, would not be supported by the majority of experienced Earth Controllers.
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This is true. We've had this debate before, and our arguments have inevitably failed to convince the other of anything. Fortunately I am content--even proud--to be a effective maverick among Earth Controllers. And I know I am not the only one.
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A stun + immobilize has the same effect as a hold, plus it has the defense debuff from both powers and can be fired from range instead of PB AoE. And the foes don't "wake up" as soon as an AoE damage power is used. I don't see how that is a bad move.
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I didn't say it was a 'bad move,' I said it's a move that Earth Control doesn't need to rely on. For Fire and Gravity controllers it's a mandatory tactic, one that relies upon both powers hitting every target, which doesn't happen all that often. On a team I don't use Salt Crystals with the idea of controlling mobs; it's used to make sure my teammates' attacks hit much more often.
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As for a sleep power, Salt Crystals is not bad . . . it looks cool and it includes a defense debuff. But Salt Crystals is the only PB AoE control power in the Earth set . . . when you have three good options for ranged AoE control that prevent most damage, I would say that a PB AoE sleep is skippable.
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And I'll continue to disagree when it comes to Salt Crystals. There are reasons that an Earth controller would want to be in melee range, such as if they took Consume for endurance recovery purposes. The fact that powers like Quicksand, Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses can be used at range doesn't mean that a melee range Earth Controller would be ineffective, or even less effective. For example, Salt Crystals + Choking Cloud, plus targeting Fossilize through Animated Stone means that you'll safely apply a hold to everything in range while waiting for VG to recharge.
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With proper slotting for accuracy, Stalagmites + Stone Cages is clearly better than Salt Crystals. When you add in the fact that you can add procs quite easily to Stone Cages and can fire it off every few seconds, it is even clearer.
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Firing off Stone Cages (or any other AoE immobilize) every few seconds is a good way to empty your endurance bar.
QR
Nothing really useful to add, esp after Local's already taken up all the good points, but...
Anyone else notice that some of the sleeps in this game also have some of the best graphics? Frozen Aura for Ice Melee always had really nice graphics, but no one took it because it was a sleep (now, it's a flat out awesome power too). Similarly, Thunderstrike for Storm has a great graphic, but it's rarely taken for its low mag stun. It's almost like the devs presciently gave the crappy powers some great looks to make up for their meh factors. 
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.
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Kids, this is very, very, very bad advice. Never under any circumstances skip Stalagmites. And certainly don't try and replace it with Salt Crystals.
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Firing off Stone Cages (or any other AoE immobilize) every few seconds is a good way to empty your endurance bar.
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Given their typical duration and recharge you can slot them with SOs, common IOs and/or set IOs for end reduction rather easily. And you are also using the assumption that if you have aoe immobs you are using them improperly.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.
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Kids, this is very, very, very bad advice. Never under any circumstances skip Stalagmites. And certainly don't try and replace it with Salt Crystals.
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Another attempt at putting words in my mouth. I never said I picked up Salt Crystals and got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, I said I got rid of the ghetto hold powers when I got to higher levels, because better options became available. Choking Cloud isn't available at low levels, for example, but once you can get it that and Salt Crystals is more effective when soloing than hoping two AoE powers target everything they can each time you use it. Liquify + Volcanic Gasses trumps Stone Cages + Stalagmites for hard control, too, though admittedly the combination isn't up as often. However, both of the former are location-based AoEs, which have certain advantages on occasion, like being able to be used outside of LOS if you prefer.
Ghetto holds are also pretty slot-intensive. Stalagmites isn't very useful with one slot, or even three, though I found Stone Cages to be good enough with two Accuracy and two End Reducer SOs when I had it. By contrast, Salt Crystals with three sleeps give Choking Cloud plenty of time to work, even if Choking Cloud has fewer than six slots in it.
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Firing off Stone Cages (or any other AoE immobilize) every few seconds is a good way to empty your endurance bar.
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Given their typical duration and recharge you can slot them with SOs, common IOs and/or set IOs for end reduction rather easily. And you are also using the assumption that if you have aoe immobs you are using them improperly.
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I'm assuming nothing. Local_Man stated proc slotting and high rate of recharge as advantages to having Stone Cages. There are no procs that work in AoE immobilizes that also reduce its high endurance cost, and unless you do slot for endurance reduction, your blue bar will be empty quite fast if you do take advantage of the second 'benefit.'
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and unless you do slot for endurance reduction
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Did you completely skip where I said that?
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you can slot them with SOs, common IOs and/or set IOs for end reduction rather easily
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And you're still assuming that people are spamming cages, which noone suggested.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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and unless you do slot for endurance reduction
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Did you completely skip where I said that?
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you can slot them with SOs, common IOs and/or set IOs for end reduction rather easily
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I didn't miss it. I agree that Stone Cages needs endurance reducers no matter how often you use it. I don't consider this advantageous, nor, I suspect, do you.
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And you're still assuming that people are spamming cages, which noone suggested.
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Actually, Local_Man seems to think the ability to spam it is in fact an advantage.
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With proper slotting for accuracy (using two slots or so per power according to conventional wisdom), Stalagmites + Stone Cages is clearly better than Salt Crystals. When you add in the fact that you can add procs quite easily to Stone Cages (none of which reduce its endurance cost) and can fire it off every few seconds, it is even clearer.
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My Stone Cages is five slotted. Three Acc/End set IOs and two procs. That gets me good enhancement values and the benefit of procs.
But I don't understand why you insist that Crystals is better than Stalagmites. Stuns are better than Sleeps, and a Stun_Immob is way, way better mitigation than a Sleep. Particularly since this sleep is a PBAoE.
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Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.
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Kids, this is very, very, very bad advice. Never under any circumstances skip Stalagmites. And certainly don't try and replace it with Salt Crystals.
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Wow, that's awful. I don't care what you replace it with, you never get rid of Stalagmites. And that's coming form an Earth/TA which is already considered control overkill.
If you can't manage your end enough to use Stone Cages as a means of effective AoE damage, then by all means, don't play with it. Do not offer the bad advice of saying to avoid it however. Yikes.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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My Stone Cages is five slotted. Three Acc/End set IOs and two procs. That gets me good enhancement values and the benefit of procs.
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My Salt Crystals is three slotted. It has no accuracy penalty to overcome. When it hits, nothing moves for over thirty seconds unless it gets damaged. When I solo, the first thing that damages it is invariably Animated Stone, and then its target gets Fossilized by me. Problem over. Forever. I don't have to look around to see who Stone Cages hit but Stalagmites missed, which may not necessarily be the guy Stoney is attacking right now.
Also:
Activation time of Salt Crystals: 1.07 seconds.
Activation time of Earth Control Ghetto Hold: At least 3.27 seconds.
On teams it's either used to stack an additional defense debuff, which means my teammates kill mobs faster, or it's kept in reserve to incapacitate an ambush for a lengthy time until it can be dealt with.
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But I don't understand why you insist that Crystals is better than Stalagmites. Stuns are better than Sleeps, and a Stun_Immob is way, way better mitigation than a Sleep.
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I said Sleep + (other) is better than Stun + Immobilize, and I already explained why. Several times. Is a Stun_Immob better than a Sleep_Hold? Because that's what I'm asserting. Over and over and over and over and over and over. A Stun_Immob is only as effective when all targets and both Stunned AND Immobilized.
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Particularly since this sleep is a PBAoE.
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I've also already explained how this is not necessarily a disadvantage. If Earth's ghetto hold powers could be used outside of LOS, I would concede a small advantage there.
I think I see what the problem here is.
My build is made for high performance, high stress, high end teaming content.
Yours is for leisurely soloing.
I'm glad you enjoy your build, but remember that even poor builds can be fun to solo with.
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I think I see what the problem here is.
My build is made for high performance, high stress, high end teaming content.
Yours is for leisurely soloing.
I'm glad you enjoy your build, but remember that even poor builds can be fun to solo with.
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Congratulations on couching such a condescending, insulting post inside a paper-thin veneer of civility. I'm duly amazed that you can discern the overall effectiveness of a build you've never seen out of thin air like that and display it for all to see. However, I assure you that my 'poor build' has completed the STF and several ITFs as the only controller and I've not heard complaints about a lack of control from my teammates. Perhaps you could do me the favor of reading their minds and letting me know if my impressions of those events are in error?
Thanks in advance.
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Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.
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Kids, this is very, very, very bad advice. Never under any circumstances skip Stalagmites. And certainly don't try and replace it with Salt Crystals.
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Wow, that's awful. I don't care what you replace it with, you never get rid of Stalagmites. And that's coming form an Earth/TA which is already considered control overkill.
If you can't manage your end enough to use Stone Cages as a means of effective AoE damage, then by all means, don't play with it. Do not offer the bad advice of saying to avoid it however. Yikes.
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Indulge me then. Why is it bad advice to suggest eschewing a power combination that only approximates a hold when both powers hit the exact same targets when playing a set that offers better control combinations that achieve a better result (that being an actual hold instead of a sorta-hold-for-a-few-seconds-please-someone-kill-it-quick?
I would consider any build that eliminates Stalagmites to be on the fringe.
Salt Crystals, IMO, is the most skippable power in Earth. It's not the worst power in the game but it definitely leaves something to be desired on a Controller. Depending on how you look at it, it is either the worst or second worst AoE sleep available to Controllers, based on how you evaluate the annoying 6 pts of damage Flash Freeze does simply for the purpose of letting stuff shoot you before the sleep activates. For mysterious reasons both Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze also cost more endurance than Stalagmites. IMO the Blaster sleep, Siren's Song, is more powerful than the sleep obtained by Ice or Earth Control, though we have to be careful with such comparisons.
Meanwhile, Stalagmites may be the best ranged AoE mezz available in the game based on the combination of several factors: decent recharge rate, reasonable stun duration, and (importantly) the fact that it applies the stun before mobs are alerted to it. If stacked with a second AoE stun (easily available to all builds with the Earth Epic's Fissure power) then entire groups can be quickly eliminated. Unlike a sleep, the stun does not cancel when mobs are stuck or knocked down.
As to whether the Sleep by itself is better than the immob by itself, that is harder to rate. I think a Controller can get by without any immobilizers at all, my only question is what powers the player is taking. The only way to avoid both the AoE immob and the single target immob on Fire, Ice, Earth or Plant is to take all powers from the secondary as of level 4. For some secondaries this is viable (Radiation, for example) and for others this is probably not wise (trading the AoE immob for say, Flash Arrow, Force Bolt, or Repel)
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Meanwhile, Stalagmites may be the best ranged AoE mezz available in the game based on the combination of several factors: decent recharge rate, reasonable stun duration, and (importantly) the fact that it applies the stun before mobs are alerted to it. If stacked with a second AoE stun (easily available to all builds with the Earth Epic's Fissure power) then entire groups can be quickly eliminated. Unlike a sleep, the stun does not cancel when mobs are stuck or knocked down.
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By itself I would rate many powers above Stalagmites, starting with those that can be cast from outside of LOS, such as Volcanic Gasses, Quicksand, Earthquake, and Wormhole. Of those four, three of them (Quicksand, Earthquake, Wormhole) recharge as fast as or faster than Stalagmites, and those same three do not have the accuracy penalty that many other AoE powers including Stalagmites must overcome. That means that, assuming identical slotting, those powers without the inherent accuracy penalty will tend to hit more often, thus applying their desired effects more often, and therefore be more effective than those powers that do have it. Also, Wormhole has a longer duration stun than Stalagmites and can be occasionally used to render a group of mobs null for quite awhile (like teleporting the henchmen around Siege off his tower so the group can focus on the AV alone.)
Stalagmites is certainly superior to Flashfire, but that isn't saying much.
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By itself I would rate many powers above Stalagmites, starting with those that can be cast from outside of LOS, such as Volcanic Gasses, Quicksand, Earthquake, and Wormhole. Of those four, three of them (Quicksand, Earthquake, Wormhole) recharge as fast as or faster than Stalagmites, and those same three do not have the accuracy penalty that many other AoE powers including Stalagmites must overcome. That means that, assuming identical slotting, those powers without the inherent accuracy penalty will tend to hit more often, thus applying their desired effects more often, and therefore be more effective than those powers that do have it. Also, Wormhole has a longer duration stun than Stalagmites and can be occasionally used to render a group of mobs null for quite awhile (like teleporting the henchmen around Siege off his tower so the group can focus on the AV alone.)
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I can understand why some would consider Earthquake or other LoS-breaking powers superior to Stalagmites. It depends on the weight you give to the LoS-breaking mechanics. Having both a 50 Ice and Earth Controller though, the power that I find myself opening with more than any other (and really missing on Ice) is Stalagmites, simply because a corner is not always available (especially on outdoor maps), nor really necessary in a group where a tank will be running ahead. I feel that Stalagmites is useful in more situations than Earthquake; of course, both together in one set is even better.
Volcanic Gasses is an amazing power, but the recharge keeps it one notch from being an "every fight" power like Stalagmites. I would still never, never skip Volcanic Gasses on any Earth build. Again, whether it is the "best" AoE mezz is subjective, depending on the weight given to LoS breaking and recharge.
I'm not really familiar with the mechanics of Wormhole, but looking at the stats now I think it would be very viable assuming you are skillful enough to use it both in and out of teams. I'm not sure how hard it is to control the knockback or avoid confusing your teammates when the mobs suddenly port.
Quicksand is a whole other animal. The only Control power I can think to compare it to directly is Shiver, in that it is a powerful debuff that complements other powers better than that it succeeds on its own. I don't consider Quicksand mutually exclusive with any other Earth power; all builds would benefit from it unless they are getting a slow (and maybe some-defense) from somewhere else.
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Meanwhile, Stalagmites may be the best ranged AoE mezz available in the game based on the combination of several factors: decent recharge rate, reasonable stun duration, and (importantly) the fact that it applies the stun before mobs are alerted to it. If stacked with a second AoE stun (easily available to all builds with the Earth Epic's Fissure power) then entire groups can be quickly eliminated. Unlike a sleep, the stun does not cancel when mobs are stuck or knocked down.
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By itself I would rate many powers above Stalagmites, starting with those that can be cast from outside of LOS, such as Volcanic Gasses, Quicksand, Earthquake, and Wormhole. Of those four, three of them (Quicksand, Earthquake, Wormhole) recharge as fast as or faster than Stalagmites, and those same three do not have the accuracy penalty that many other AoE powers including Stalagmites must overcome. That means that, assuming identical slotting, those powers without the inherent accuracy penalty will tend to hit more often, thus applying their desired effects more often, and therefore be more effective than those powers that do have it. Also, Wormhole has a longer duration stun than Stalagmites and can be occasionally used to render a group of mobs null for quite awhile (like teleporting the henchmen around Siege off his tower so the group can focus on the AV alone.)
Stalagmites is certainly superior to Flashfire, but that isn't saying much.
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I don't really see why you think Line of Sight is that big a factor. The range on Stalagmites is enough that I'm not usually seen when I fire it off. Since, once property slotted, Stalagmites gets all or nearly all of the foes, retaliation is not a much of a problem. (Besides, if line of sight is such an issue, isn't running into melee to fire off a PB AoE sleep even more of an issue??)
Sure, it is a neat trick to be able to control from around a corner, but most of the time, either the topography or the speed of the team won't let me do that. Most of the time, I find use of Stalagmites+Stone Cages + Quicksand to be a very effective control combo. Tank runs in to draw aggro. I stomp, clap and then throw down quicksand. Maybe a few foes who were stunned aren't caged, but quicksand keeps them from wandering far. Maybe a foe or two who were caged weren't stunned, but they are usually aggroed on the tank. And if I take a shot or two, that's what I have a heal for.
I just don't see how you can believe that Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites. I understand how you could use Salt Crystals as a set-up for VG, but you can do the same thing with Stalagmites without having to run into melee.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I don't really see why you think Line of Sight is that big a factor. The range on Stalagmites is enough that I'm not usually seen when I fire it off. Since, once property slotted, Stalagmites gets all or nearly all of the foes, retaliation is not a much of a problem. (Besides, if line of sight is such an issue, isn't running into melee to fire off a PB AoE sleep even more of an issue??)
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One example in which I find location-based AoEs to be superior to those requiring you to be within LoS of your target is if a sniper is in the group. If you're going to use ranged powers, the farther away you can fire them off the better you generally are unless you can stand behind a corner or object and still activate the power where you want it. However, if you have other PBAoE powers such as Choking Cloud or Consume, you're going to need to be in melee range anyway, and Salt Crystals can effectively stop an alpha strike in those situations. If you check back, I did say that I would have given the nod to the accepted Ghetto Hold had it been possible to use it outside of LoS. But if you're running a 'high performance' build like Weatherby, I'm guessing you're not fighting blues and greens that you'll nearly always hit. Instead, you're probably facing oranges and up, and anything that negatively impacts the accuracy of your initial attack is a Bad Thing in my book.
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Sure, it is a neat trick to be able to control from around a corner, but most of the time, either the topography or the speed of the team won't let me do that. Most of the time, I find use of Stalagmites+Stone Cages + Quicksand to be a very effective control combo. Tank runs in to draw aggro. I stomp, clap and then throw down quicksand. Maybe a few foes who were stunned aren't caged, but quicksand keeps them from wandering far. Maybe a foe or two who were caged weren't stunned, but they are usually aggroed on the tank. And if I take a shot or two, that's what I have a heal for.
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Wait. You don't often have time to use an around-the-corner power (like Volcanic Gasses, with an activation time of 1.17 seconds) because of "the speed of the team," but you can instead use a combination of powers that take no less than 6.37 seconds to activate?? How can this be? Have you discovered a way to slot the activation times of powers to make them faster than what they start out at? Is your computer moving at relativistic speeds? Flux capacitor??
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I just don't see how you can believe that Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites. I understand how you could use Salt Crystals as a set-up for VG, but you can do the same thing with Stalagmites without having to run into melee.
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The reason you don't see how I can believe Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites is, once again, because that has not been my assertion. I didn't even mention the power in the post you quoted.
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By itself I would rate many powers above Stalagmites, starting with those that can be cast from outside of LOS, such as Volcanic Gasses, Quicksand, Earthquake, and Wormhole. Of those four, three of them (Quicksand, Earthquake, Wormhole) recharge as fast as or faster than Stalagmites, and those same three do not have the accuracy penalty that many other AoE powers including Stalagmites must overcome. That means that, assuming identical slotting, those powers without the inherent accuracy penalty will tend to hit more often, thus applying their desired effects more often, and therefore be more effective than those powers that do have it. Also, Wormhole has a longer duration stun than Stalagmites and can be occasionally used to render a group of mobs null for quite awhile (like teleporting the henchmen around Siege off his tower so the group can focus on the AV alone.)
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I can understand why some would consider Earthquake or other LoS-breaking powers superior to Stalagmites. It depends on the weight you give to the LoS-breaking mechanics. Having both a 50 Ice and Earth Controller though, the power that I find myself opening with more than any other (and really missing on Ice) is Stalagmites, simply because a corner is not always available (especially on outdoor maps), nor really necessary in a group where a tank will be running ahead. I feel that Stalagmites is useful in more situations than Earthquake; of course, both together in one set is even better.
Volcanic Gasses is an amazing power, but the recharge keeps it one notch from being an "every fight" power like Stalagmites. I would still never, never skip Volcanic Gasses on any Earth build. Again, whether it is the "best" AoE mezz is subjective, depending on the weight given to LoS breaking and recharge.
I'm not really familiar with the mechanics of Wormhole, but looking at the stats now I think it would be very viable assuming you are skillful enough to use it both in and out of teams. I'm not sure how hard it is to control the knockback or avoid confusing your teammates when the mobs suddenly port.
Quicksand is a whole other animal. The only Control power I can think to compare it to directly is Shiver, in that it is a powerful debuff that complements other powers better than that it succeeds on its own. I don't consider Quicksand mutually exclusive with any other Earth power; all builds would benefit from it unless they are getting a slow (and maybe some-defense) from somewhere else.
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My experiences differ from yours, having played a Grav/Rad, Fire/Kin, and Earth/Sonic to 50, and having tinkered around on and teamed extensively with a friend who has a level 50 Earth/Rad. I can see the need to resort to a Stun/Immob combination on Fire and Gravity controllers, who are light in control overall, although I respecced out of Crushing Field on my Grav/Rad once he got EM Pulse and Choking Cloud slotted.
Now it may be possible that I am more used to control-light sets, being that my Earth/Sonic is my most recent 50 controller, so I may just be used to playing with fewer control options. Also I learned to despise the Immob/Stun "Ghetto Hold" tactic on my Fire Controller because of the inherent unreliability of the powers he's forced to use (and I follow pretty conventional slotting in both powers and run Tactics.)
To put it as succinctly as I can, if I want to hold a mob, I'd rather find a way to HOLD them and not cobble together an irregularly functioning facsimile of the effect.
I think you are greatly exaggerating the accuracy issues surrounding AoE hard controls.
Being in the habit of using quicksand on everything everywhere everytime myself, considering stalagmites as ghetto or using salt crystals for extra defense debuff doesn't strike me as the mark of a "maverick", but rather someone that's just eccentric.
Using salt crystals for solo saftey as well as -def for teams, regarding stalagmites as inneffective without immobilization, and even mentioning default accuracy on earth powers all strike me as possibly reasonable (even if unpalatable) if Electronite isn't using quicksand, and I think quicksand is more subject to personal preference than even the sleep. If quickand is in use, then it all deserves a bolded WTF.
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I don't really see why you think Line of Sight is that big a factor. The range on Stalagmites is enough that I'm not usually seen when I fire it off. Since, once property slotted, Stalagmites gets all or nearly all of the foes, retaliation is not a much of a problem. (Besides, if line of sight is such an issue, isn't running into melee to fire off a PB AoE sleep even more of an issue??)
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One example in which I find location-based AoEs to be superior to those requiring you to be within LoS of your target is if a sniper is in the group. If you're going to use ranged powers, the farther away you can fire them off the better you generally are unless you can stand behind a corner or object and still activate the power where you want it. However, if you have other PBAoE powers such as Choking Cloud or Consume, you're going to need to be in melee range anyway, and Salt Crystals can effectively stop an alpha strike in those situations. If you check back, I did say that I would have given the nod to the accepted Ghetto Hold had it been possible to use it outside of LoS. But if you're running a 'high performance' build like Weatherby, I'm guessing you're not fighting blues and greens that you'll nearly always hit. Instead, you're probably facing oranges and up, and anything that negatively impacts the accuracy of your initial attack is a Bad Thing in my book.
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Most of the time, Line of Sight is simply not a problem. In those few situations where it is, Earth Control has both Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses. Requiring Line of Sight is a very weak reason to want to skip a powerful control like Stalagmites. And my experience suggests that you are substantially overstating concerns about poor accuracy.
If I have a tank on the team, then Accuracy really isn't much of a problem . . . as long as the tank can survive for about 10 seconds or less. I used to use this tactic against +4 foes all the time. As the tank runs in to get aggro, I can lay down Quicksand with its -25% Defense. Then Stalagmites and Stone Cages hit quite reliably.
And part of the point of not taking Salt Crystals is that I DON'T have any other PB AoE powers. I don't have Choking Cloud or Consume on my Earth/Rad -- don't need them. I have no reason to go into melee.
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Sure, it is a neat trick to be able to control from around a corner, but most of the time, either the topography or the speed of the team won't let me do that. Most of the time, I find use of Stalagmites+Stone Cages + Quicksand to be a very effective control combo. Tank runs in to draw aggro. I stomp, clap and then throw down quicksand. Maybe a few foes who were stunned aren't caged, but quicksand keeps them from wandering far. Maybe a foe or two who were caged weren't stunned, but they are usually aggroed on the tank. And if I take a shot or two, that's what I have a heal for.
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Wait. You don't often have time to use an around-the-corner power (like Volcanic Gasses, with an activation time of 1.17 seconds) because of "the speed of the team," but you can instead use a combination of powers that take no less than 6.37 seconds to activate?? How can this be? Have you discovered a way to slot the activation times of powers to make them faster than what they start out at? Is your computer moving at relativistic speeds? Flux capacitor??
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Your snooty response fails to take some important things into account. (a) On a fast moving team, the tank is usually leading the way, plowing into the next group as soon as the last one was finished. I don't need to worry about hiding when the tank takes the initial aggro. (b) It takes a few seconds to find a corner, determine the right options and then lay out the location-targetted control power -- activation time is not the only thing to consider. Location-targetted powers take a little longer to activate, since they require an activation of the power and then a point-n-click to determine where the power will activate. On the other hand, the time it takes for the Stalagmites-Stone Cages combo isn't all that relevant. Stalagmites has the stun hit in a very short time without notice to the foes -- after that, they are all stunned and if it takes me another few seconds to lay down Stone Cages, so what? While I do my thing, everyone else on the team is moving in to wipe out the foes. I control any individuals who weren't held with the combo, and by then, just about everyone is defeated . . . then it is time to chase after the tank again.
A good tank knows how to keep a team moving along. He knows when the controller has everything under control so that he can then move on to the next group while the rest of the team cleans up. Maybe you just aren't used to playing with good tanks?
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I just don't see how you can believe that Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites. I understand how you could use Salt Crystals as a set-up for VG, but you can do the same thing with Stalagmites without having to run into melee.
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The reason you don't see how I can believe Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites is, once again, because that has not been my assertion. I didn't even mention the power in the post you quoted.
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I was referring to the overall message in your posts. You said that you dropped Stalagmites and Stone Cages, and argued that Salt Crystals has more merit than those powers.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Salt crystals gets a cheap purple set in it. In addition to looking cool, the large debuff it applies, and its fast animation, its not a bad power at all.
True i would say its the most skippable of aoe controls in the set, but i still wouldn't want to lol.
The most skippable is stone prison, but its still good for low level damage and AV battles.
On my earth/sonic i have the entire earth set, plus liquefy as controls, its very fun.
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Salt crystals do suck on teams where a Tank or Scrapper has a damaging PBAOE attack toggled or on autofire - but then so do all Sleep powers.
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Salt Crystals is still better than other sleep powers even on teams because it applies another huge defense debuff that doesn't disappear when the spell effect is broken. Also, Salt Crystals does not have the same accuracy penalty that other AoE powers do, so it has a better chance of hitting opponents initially than the Stagmites/Stone Cages 'ghetto hold,' which is a necessary tactic on sets with fewer control options than Earth.
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Oh yeah, once you have Stoney, let him take the lead in which sleeping opponent to clobber first, he's very bad about following your lead.
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Another tactic I use on my Earth/Sonic is to target Stoney, Super Speed into a group, hit Salt Crystals, then use Fossilize on whatever Stoney attacks.
Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.
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Your suggestions, while interesting, would not be supported by the majority of experienced Earth Controllers. A stun + immobilize has the same effect as a hold, plus it has the defense debuff from both powers and can be fired from range instead of PB AoE. And the foes don't "wake up" as soon as an AoE damage power is used. I don't see how that is a bad move.
As for a sleep power, Salt Crystals is not bad . . . it looks cool and it includes a defense debuff. But Salt Crystals is the only PB AoE control power in the Earth set . . . when you have three good options for ranged AoE control that prevent most damage, I would say that a PB AoE sleep is skippable.
With proper slotting for accuracy, Stalagmites + Stone Cages is clearly better than Salt Crystals. When you add in the fact that you can add procs quite easily to Stone Cages and can fire it off every few seconds, it is even clearer.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control