Meh. They are A neccesary ebil.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
I just hate trying to build up my nest egg and seeing profit going *poof* because the game needs a money sink 
Grey Ghost Music
I hate them too. I hate the entire premise of the market's functionality (blind consignment wtf?) though. But that's another story.
What I'm really here for is to say, "Nice Avatar, Amrat."
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
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I just hate trying to build up my nest egg and seeing profit going *poof* because the game needs a money sink
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I'm sure you'd hate to see people Posting items for sale at Insane High Prices and nickel and diming their way down to the high bidder's price. Or maybe you wouldn't hate it - but it would still make bidders bid higher, effectively causing the seller to set the price, which they want to avoid.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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I just hate trying to build up my nest egg and seeing profit going *poof* because the game needs a money sink
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if you find a good enough niche, the fee is small.
To put it another way, if you're losing a lot of profit to the niche you're not making enough money.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I just hate trying to build up my nest egg and seeing profit going *poof* because the game needs a money sink
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if you find a good enough niche, the fee is small.
To put it another way, if you're losing a lot of profit to the niche you're not making enough money.
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Fulmens is Wise.
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I just hate trying to build up my nest egg and seeing profit going *poof* because the game needs a money sink
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I'm sure you'd hate to see people Posting items for sale at Insane High Prices and nickel and diming their way down to the high bidder's price. Or maybe you wouldn't hate it - but it would still make bidders bid higher, effectively causing the seller to set the price, which they want to avoid.
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It appears to me that they want the seller to set the price. After all, you list items for a price. They just don't want the buyer to see that price. Thereby, making the buyer pay whatever he thinks is "reasonable" for the item, even if it VASTLY exceeds the list price.
The system is unnecessarily cumbersome. It's frought with glitches which are difficult to reproduce (and therefore difficult to fix) and worse, it turns Heroes and Villains alike into super-powered used car dealers.
Batman: "Hey Supes, how much for that nifty Kryptonian Genome?"
Superman: "I'm thinking of a number between 10 and 10k..."
Batman: "Just tell me what you want for it..."
Superman: "Naw, I could maybe make more money this way."
So we're stuck with listing fees so that sellers can maybe make more money than they wanted per-item. Incidentally, this also reinforced Jack's old idea of not allowing easy Inf transfers. Unfortunately for the devs (if it was in fact a design consideration), the players still found a way.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
I left an overpriced item up for a long time- I want to say six weeks, but I don't remember exactly- before relisting it once.
"set the price" my left nethercheek.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Good sir, that's exactly...I mean -exactly- my point. It's unnecessarily cumbersome and favors the seller in a counter-intuitive way. This seems to only have been done to avoid Inf transfers via the market.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
[ QUOTE ]
Good sir, that's exactly...I mean -exactly- my point. It's unnecessarily cumbersome and favors the seller in a counter-intuitive way. This seems to only have been done to avoid Inf transfers via the market.
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I dunno, I find the whole process kinda fun...it's the only thing about that market that makes me think of it in any way as a "minigame". It's so easy to not lose money doing it, though, that all complaints about something as immaterial as listing fees are mind-bottling (sic) to me.
Also, I don't really get your point. Pretty much any market system that only lets you drive the price UP from the original asking price will favor the seller. This includes more conventional auction houses as well. This system incents sellers to price low so they sell fast, which lets buyers bid-creep to essentially get a lower price than the apparent "going rate". In addition, the listing fees disincent sellers from relisting if the going rate is rising. It's actually more buyer friendly than a regular auction if you ask me.
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Good sir, that's exactly...I mean -exactly- my point. It's unnecessarily cumbersome and favors the seller in a counter-intuitive way. This seems to only have been done to avoid Inf transfers via the market.
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I don't think you understand the market. Are you new here?
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Good sir, that's exactly...I mean -exactly- my point. It's unnecessarily cumbersome and favors the seller in a counter-intuitive way. This seems to only have been done to avoid Inf transfers via the market.
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I dunno, I find the whole process kinda fun...it's the only thing about that market that makes me think of it in any way as a "minigame". It's so easy to not lose money doing it, though, that all complaints about something as immaterial as listing fees are mind-bottling (sic) to me.
Also, I don't really get your point. Pretty much any market system that only lets you drive the price UP from the original asking price will favor the seller. This includes more conventional auction houses as well. This system incents sellers to price low so they sell fast, which lets buyers bid-creep to essentially get a lower price than the apparent "going rate". In addition, the listing fees disincent sellers from relisting if the going rate is rising. It's actually more buyer friendly than a regular auction if you ask me.
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Sorry, three words will clue you into what I mean here:
"I played EVE."
I don't play it anymore, but their market prices have steadily dropped, with the exception of a major exploit that had wide-ranging effects on the game's economy, over a five-year period. Their secret? List every instance of an item for sale on the market, and show the price.
It's that simple. The prices went down. They still go down. I can't think of any reason they'd not go down, barring development-related catastrophes.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good sir, that's exactly...I mean -exactly- my point. It's unnecessarily cumbersome and favors the seller in a counter-intuitive way. This seems to only have been done to avoid Inf transfers via the market.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you understand the market. Are you new here?
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LOL. That's all I can say to you that isn't a violation of the forum rules.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, three words will clue you into what I mean here:
"I played EVE."
I don't play it anymore, but their market prices have steadily dropped, with the exception of a major exploit that had wide-ranging effects on the game's economy, over a five-year period. Their secret? List every instance of an item for sale on the market, and show the price.
It's that simple. The prices went down. They still go down. I can't think of any reason they'd not go down, barring development-related catastrophes.
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I too played Eve, sir. But falling prices in Eve aren't the result of the transparency of the market. Their economy is much more robust and has many more influencing factors, not the least of which is that most industry has little to no barriers to entry. Competition is driving prices down over time in Eve, not any function of the market.
I definitely would love to see more price history in CoX, but that's not why prices are silly here. They're silly because there's SO MUCH INF in the system that people pay "high" prices and it doesn't make a dent. At least, that's one of the primary reasons. I'm sure others could clue you in to more.
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Sorry, three words will clue you into what I mean here:
"I played EVE."
I don't play it anymore, but their market prices have steadily dropped, with the exception of a major exploit that had wide-ranging effects on the game's economy, over a five-year period. Their secret? List every instance of an item for sale on the market, and show the price.
It's that simple. The prices went down. They still go down. I can't think of any reason they'd not go down, barring development-related catastrophes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I too played Eve, sir. But falling prices in Eve aren't the result of the transparency of the market. Their economy is much more robust and has many more influencing factors, not the least of which is that most industry has little to no barriers to entry. Competition is driving prices down over time in Eve, not any function of the market.
I definitely would love to see more price history in CoX, but that's not why prices are silly here. They're silly because there's SO MUCH INF in the system that people pay "high" prices and it doesn't make a dent. At least, that's one of the primary reasons. I'm sure others could clue you in to more.
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Are you trying to tell me there wasn't a huge amount of ISK in EVE? And what, exactly, is the barrier to industry in CoH/CoV?
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I too played Eve, sir. But falling prices in Eve aren't the result of the transparency of the market. Their economy is much more robust and has many more influencing factors, not the least of which is that most industry has little to no barriers to entry. Competition is driving prices down over time in Eve, not any function of the market.
I definitely would love to see more price history in CoX, but that's not why prices are silly here. They're silly because there's SO MUCH INF in the system that people pay "high" prices and it doesn't make a dent. At least, that's one of the primary reasons. I'm sure others could clue you in to more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you trying to tell me there wasn't a huge amount of ISK in EVE? And what, exactly, is the barrier to industry in CoH/CoV?
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There was a huge amount of isk in Eve, but there are huge isk sinks (tower fuel, anyone? How about destructible ships? using ammo? etc etc) and there were HUGE things to spend it on (Titans, Outposts, moms, faction fittings, etc.) so building up isk wasn't just an exercise in market e-peen. Basically, the people with billions of inf weren't out there driving the price down on rifters, they were buying higher-end items.
The biggest barrier to entry in CoX is the fact that it's a superhero game and lots of people don't want to craft. It's mental but it's there. Look at any thread in this forum to see how much some people don't like the market, etc etc. Eve's economy is well-known and a draw to the game. CoX's economy is considered by many to be tacked-on and a nuisance.
If you added "poorly designed" to that description of CoX's economy, I would not be able to agree more with your final statement.
As for the ISK sinks in EVE, I grant you that they are there.
But we have purples. It's not exactly equivalent, but it's certainly analogous.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
[ QUOTE ]
If you added "poorly designed" to that description of CoX's economy, I would not be able to agree more with your final statement.
As for the ISK sinks in EVE, I grant you that they are there.
But we have purples. It's not exactly equivalent, but it's certainly analogous.
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Yeah but what do purples have to do with your assertion that the structure of the market is more seller-friendly?
It's not "more" seller-friendly.
It's just plain seller-friendly. Sellers in CoX can often expect to get far more currency than they list their items for. Sure, regular auctions can work that way too, but in an auction you know what the floor is as the buyer. In EVE you know exactly what you need to pay. In CoX, it's a guess. It's often an educated guess, but it's still a shot in the dark. As the buyer you can always overpay, because you don't know the list price.
That's not friendly to buyers, in my book anyway. It's friendly to sellers.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not "more" seller-friendly.
It's just plain seller-friendly. Sellers in CoX can often expect to get far more currency than they list their items for. Sure, regular auctions can work that way too, but in an auction you know what the floor is as the buyer. In EVE you know exactly what you need to pay. In CoX, it's a guess. It's often an educated guess, but it's still a shot in the dark. As the buyer you can always overpay, because you don't know the list price.
That's not friendly to buyers, in my book anyway. It's friendly to sellers.
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I'd agree with you except that I think you're missing something. The buyer can leave their bid up just as long as the seller can. Because seller are incented to list at a low price, they can just as easily "undersell" to a patient buyer who leaves a low bid out. It works the same in Eve, you can leave low buy orders out and inevitably, someone too lazy to haul their [censored] to Rens will sell it cheap.
and... like... if they don't... you know... pick a low enough number the sellers might ... like... get screwed over and never... you know... sell their stuff.
Then sellers would have to... you know... list the item and pay fees again.
Dude, it's like there's balance man. It's like sellers and buyers both set the price. Woah.
I don't play EVE. But... what with, for instance, people blowing up Dreadnaughts and whatnot, as reported in this thread, I'm not sure I follow the analogy with Purples.
My point was that you CAN list something at an inflated price and not sell it, and have to relist. If the seller could arbitrarily set a price, that wouldn't have happened.
I don't know if there was an actual Dev quote, but there was a lot of discussion, when the market was new, about how it was designed to raise prices and destroy as much inf as possible.
I believe that the system actually creates far more inf than it destroys, in terms of adding level 50 generic recipes which can be sold for inf. That's not even counting "Oh, there's a REASON to accumulate inf now?" We originally generated, in this game, 3 trillion surplus inf by ACCIDENT.
I'm not going to say that the economy in this game is well-designed. I will say that it has always erred on the side of generosity.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I don't play EVE. But... what with, for instance, people blowing up Dreadnaughts and whatnot, as reported in this thread, I'm not sure I follow the analogy with Purples.
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Fulmens and others like you, who know a lot about economics and markets, I highly encourage you NOT to play Eve if you value your free time. That game will suck you in, the economy is awesome. To an industrialist in Eve, PvP is just people blowing up ships so you can sell them more. Big space battles with hundred of dreads and carriers destroyed? *cha-ching!* 
Too bad CCP lost their vision and is slowly but surely destroying the game as it was. They constantly cater to he whiners and that generally involves whipping out the nerfbat. Fortunately, that doesn't affect industry that much...unfortunately, piling up money is no fun if you can't spend it on shiny ships and go have fun blowing people up. They took out the fun part...what little there was. 
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I don't play EVE. But... what with, for instance, people blowing up Dreadnaughts and whatnot, as reported in this thread, I'm not sure I follow the analogy with Purples.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fulmens and others like you, who know a lot about economics and markets, I highly encourage you NOT to play Eve if you value your free time. That game will suck you in, the economy is awesome. To an industrialist in Eve, PvP is just people blowing up ships so you can sell them more. Big space battles with hundred of dreads and carriers destroyed? *cha-ching!*
Too bad CCP lost their vision and is slowly but surely destroying the game as it was. They constantly cater to he whiners and that generally involves whipping out the nerfbat. Fortunately, that doesn't affect industry that much...unfortunately, piling up money is no fun if you can't spend it on shiny ships and go have fun blowing people up. They took out the fun part...what little there was.
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QFT, and that's why I no longer play it.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
Listing fee's ... I hate them
..... that is all 
Peace,
Amrat
Grey Ghost Music