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What are random maps good for?
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Unpredictability, variety, and replayability. I like to use random maps in my arcs. I mix them with unique maps. I'll only select a specific map from a non-unique group if I want certain objectives that aren't supported by all maps in that group, or if I want a cargo ship map. (I normally pick the first cargo ship map in the list, since the bigger ones are very big.)
If you're not relying on specific spawn points, and not using Oranbega, I can see the appeal of random maps. Handpicked maps do run the risk of looking very deliberately chosen, with deliberately placed objectives. Bad guy bosses don't all hang out at the back of the most linear map available.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
random maps add more replay value.
Given the thousands of arcs I'm not worried about replay value for mine.
I stopped bothering with them completely since I prefer to have some control over where things spawn. Also for some map sets Random is a liability, if you use random CoT maps you never know when one with annoying broken portals will be used, or will put in a Behemoth Portal room and stick your glowies or hostages in there.
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I like to have control over the things i am responsible for. I never choose a random map for a mission in an arc I'm designing, as I can't be sure that my objectives will spawn where I intend them to.
What are random maps good for?
Eco.
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In a well-designed and implemented system, random maps would be of equal quality to to hand-designed maps. That is, all the spawn and collection points would be well positioned, there would be an equal number of each type of spawn points in all front, middle and back areas. If this were true, then there wouldn't really be any advantage to using fixed maps and you could always use random maps.
However, you are making an unwarranted assumption about using a specific map. Since there are usually multiple spawn points of each type in each area, you are not necessarily guaranteed any particular spawning pattern. Just because in your tests it happened to fall out in some way that suited you doesn't mean that it will for everyone running the mission.
In I15 the spawn points will be displayed on the maps, so that will give us more information to work with. However, as we've seen time and again, each patch involve changes to the maps. Most of these will be bug fixes and additions (new spawn points in areas that are under-represented now) that we want. But this will change the way your mission spawns, and can "break" it.
Like most things, however, one man's bug is another man's bug-fix. Given the nature of software, it is wisest not to make missions that depend on details that you have no control over.
Many people (myself included) are trying to make missions that perform in ways the system is not intended to. We're trying to achieve dramatic effects by staging and sequencing. When things don't work out or change we curse the incompetence of the devs, but we're trying to build something they haven't designed for. But in many cases the fault is our own for trying to shoehorn something into a system that isn't meant to handle it. If you can't figure out a way to make it work, you need to change what you're doing and implement something the system can handle.
For future development the devs should consider that in dramatic missions positioning is often the wrong model. What we really care about is the timing and ordering of the spawns, not their locations. For example, I don't care where the ally is in a mission. I just care that the team encounters the ally first. Similarly, I don't really care where the boss is, just that the team gets to him last.
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In a well-designed and implemented system, random maps would be of equal quality to to hand-designed maps.
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All the maps are "hand-designed". Random here only means that the map was randomly selected from a list of maps, not that it was Randomly Generated from pieces.
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I like to have control over the things i am responsible for. I never choose a random map for a mission in an arc I'm designing, as I can't be sure that my objectives will spawn where I intend them to.
What are random maps good for?
Eco.
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In a well-designed and implemented system, random maps would be of equal quality to to hand-designed maps. That is, all the spawn and collection points would be well positioned, there would be an equal number of each type of spawn points in all front, middle and back areas. If this were true, then there wouldn't really be any advantage to using fixed maps and you could always use random maps.
However, you are making an unwarranted assumption about using a specific map. Since there are usually multiple spawn points of each type in each area, you are not necessarily guaranteed any particular spawning pattern. Just because in your tests it happened to fall out in some way that suited you doesn't mean that it will for everyone running the mission.
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I know, but using the same map each test reduces the amount of variables i have no control over. I can test one map 20 times, but if i used a random map in a series that contained 10, I'd have to test the mission 100 times to get a similar level of 'knowing' how the mission would tend to pan out.
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In I15 the spawn points will be displayed on the maps, so that will give us more information to work with. However, as we've seen time and again, each patch involve changes to the maps. Most of these will be bug fixes and additions (new spawn points in areas that are under-represented now) that we want. But this will change the way your mission spawns, and can "break" it.
Like most things, however, one man's bug is another man's bug-fix. Given the nature of software, it is wisest not to make missions that depend on details that you have no control over.
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Yes, that's what I meant in my OP.
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Many people (myself included) are trying to make missions that perform in ways the system is not intended to. We're trying to achieve dramatic effects by staging and sequencing.
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Me too. Triggers are my friend (and, sometimes, my woe lol).
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When things don't work out or change we curse the incompetence of the devs, but we're trying to build something they haven't designed for. But in many cases the fault is our own for trying to shoehorn something into a system that isn't meant to handle it. If you can't figure out a way to make it work, you need to change what you're doing and implement something the system can handle.
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I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you referring to me specifically when you use 'you', or is this the general 'you' as in 'people'? I'm doing fine with sequencing and control etc, thanks.
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For future development the devs should consider that in dramatic missions positioning is often the wrong model. What we really care about is the timing and ordering of the spawns, not their locations. For example, I don't care where the ally is in a mission. I just care that the team encounters the ally first. Similarly, I don't really care where the boss is, just that the team gets to him last.
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I totally agree. This is what I spend most of my design time working on. 'Where' is nice, but 'when' is often vital to the way a mission's storyline progresses.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I like to have control over the things i am responsible for. I never choose a random map for a mission in an arc I'm designing, as I can't be sure that my objectives will spawn where I intend them to.
What are random maps good for?
Eco.
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Hypothetically, the only thing I can think of is if you are tryignt o maximize the re-playability of a particular piece of content. This will only rarely come into play, since story driven MA arcs are interesting for their unique stories, not for their tactical aspects, and once you have been through the stoyr once, there is little motivation to go through it again; and, of course, farm missions on the other hand, are not meant to be interesting but rather yield maximum reward/time, with their total predictability being part of the reason they can be done at great spead but simultainiously with great safety.
There are very few missions I have found that seem to try to stand on the merits of the high level of challenge and/or unique combat experience they provide. Even fewer succeed to such a degree that I would want to play through them again and again.
And even if I did, changing the map layout form one run through to another is a very minor variation in the game-playe xperience, at least for a veteran player who more or less has all the layouts memorized.
The other thing it would be good for is, of course, laziness on the party of the mission creator.
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I like to have control over the things i am responsible for.
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Give up this false emotion! Control is an illusion!
Well, maybe Illusion is a control set.
Yeah, that's it.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
The spawn locations are already random (unless you pick a map with only one spawn type in a given zone), so even selecting a specific map does not completely eliminate randomness.
That said, in my published arcs, I estimate about 1/3 of the maps are randomly selected. If the mission I'm designing doesn't require a specific sequence of encounters, and all the maps in a given set have the required number of spawn types, I usually leave the map random. I know that I'm probably the only person who will see the mission more than once, but if I run an alt through the arc again instead of doing a radio mission, I want to be surprised.
Cimeroran caves don't have anything particularly annoying for objects and NPCs to get caught on, or hidden in, so they're probably safe for setting to random.
I couldn't use a random CoT map specifically due to the portals. Wish we could select a series of maps, and mark them for our own random selection. 
Cave maps I also couldn't set to random, simply because even the small cave maps could use the "five-floor" end room, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody. 
Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls
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Cimeroran caves don't have anything particularly annoying for objects and NPCs to get caught on, or hidden in, so they're probably safe for setting to random.
I couldn't use a random CoT map specifically due to the portals. Wish we could select a series of maps, and mark them for our own random selection.
Cave maps I also couldn't set to random, simply because even the small cave maps could use the "five-floor" end room, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
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I have one CoT mission that I originally had set as a random CoT map. Since I was unfamiliar with maps that contained the annoying crystals, I was confused when someone mentioned them (most of my experience with CoT has been on low levels). The other day, when I was working on a rewrite, I finally got to see them first hand. I also found out what destructible portals were. (I had never seen them before, either.) After spending an afternoon trying to find a suitable CoT map to use, I decided to make it an office map and scrap the whole idea of using a CoT map. The spawn points sucked in most of them, anyway. With my story involving certain citizens of Paragon City, I figured having them set in an office would not conflict with the storyline.
I also found out that I couldn't set the boss as 'random', either, because my story was written for the boss to be a mage. Somehow, having a behemoth spawning as the boss, didn't quite fit the bill so I created a custom for that. 
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
A note on the CoT crystals, all the maps have a random chance of having them. I've chosen maps for testing, gone in and found no crystals, restarted the mission for another run and the damn thing was filled with crystals.
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A note on the CoT crystals, all the maps have a random chance of having them. I've chosen maps for testing, gone in and found no crystals, restarted the mission for another run and the damn thing was filled with crystals.
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Yeah, I guess when I first decided on the CoT maps (mostly for the ambiance of setting it within their domain), I didn't realize there were some crystals that dealt damage when they were switched on by the system. If a glowie happens to spawn near a crystal, it will also give you a, 'you were interrupted', message every time the effects of the crystal hits you. That can also be very annoying to try to avoid happening.
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
On the normal missions, the crystals aren't supposed to spawn too closely to a glowie (note "supposed"), as this was "fixed" quite a while ago, for the same reason you give above.
On the MA maps, though, the placement for random glowies, and the spawn points of potential crystals, might not be set right... and since we have zero control of where, or even if, a crystal spawns... well, CoT maps can be tricky to test and play. <_<;;
Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls
I noticed something rather odd when I was looking for a suitable office map the other day. As I was scrolling through the floors as they were presented on one of the maps, it showed what was supposed to be the first floor, but it showed it having 2 elevators. The other 2 floors each showed having 1 elevator. I checked a few others and saw the same type of thing on those, as well. I'm sure that has a lot to do with maps not reading all of the front/middle/back objectives correctly. I have to wonder how many others have the same problem.
No AV/EBs Deal with The Devil's Pawn-207266 Slash DeMento and the Stolen Weapons-100045 Meet the Demon Spawn-151099 Feedback
Also some maps have there Front and Back for glowies set backwards. Using Random could lead to some very messed up missions.
I like to have control over the things i am responsible for. I never choose a random map for a mission in an arc I'm designing, as I can't be sure that my objectives will spawn where I intend them to.
What are random maps good for?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)