[ QUOTE ]
*runs a script to ban all the bugs from the forums*
[/ QUOTE ] 
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's not so much an apology as a statement of recognition that they have made mistakes, they have heard our pleas and will be less punitive in the future and NEVER, EVER, run a ban script again.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much what I want to see. I would love to see a recognition that they goofed up, that they know what they did wrong and in retrospect they shouldn't have handled it the way that they did and in the future they will be more wary.
What I don't fully understand is that he's more than happy to give a long-winded explanation and apology for revoking characters badges to stop MA-Farming for badges, but he's afraid to do the same for the utterly [censored] way that he and NCSoft handled the punishment of innocent people caught up in the supposed exploit for xp in the same feature.
Personal apologies for one thing, community apology for another....way to keep sweeping your [censored]-up's under the carpet.
It's likely they haven't seen that they've done anything wrong.
If you follow that PoV, everyone who is complaining is just emo butt hurt. :P
I guess then that everyone that has thrown up their hands and left or is leaving has somehow group imagined the whole thing.
NCSoft: [ QUOTE ]
I understand your anger, and want you to know that it has been communicated to the team. Please be patient and know that we are taking to heart how this has affected our community and it will be accounted for in any further steps that are taken.
[/ QUOTE ]
Has it been accounted for yet? Or, because you haven't taken any further steps, you feel that there is indeed no reason to be held accountable?
When similar 'xp exploits' were found and patched in the past, no mass ban scripts were run. That's my problem. No deletions should have occurred.
Every post/thread talking about it shouldn't have been deleted. Made it look like they were afraid of people spreading the word, even if that's not why it happened.
Ban/deletion script was just plain stupid.
..and on and on and on.. I dunno. I'm done talking about it, I think.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
All the other stuff was okay because it wasn't using the MA. But the minute someone uses this "creative content outlet tool" for "non-creative" purposes, all hell breaks loose. And, I've gotta agree with Iggy. A nice long post apologizing for removing badges is nice, but where's the nice long post apologizing for removing characters and banning accounts (especially those that were done on accident)?
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
All the other stuff was okay because it wasn't using the MA. But the minute someone uses this "creative content outlet tool" for "non-creative" purposes, all hell breaks loose. And, I've gotta agree with Iggy. A nice long post apologizing for removing badges is nice, but where's the nice long post apologizing for removing characters and banning accounts (especially those that were done on accident)?
[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the apology needs to be to the community for all the people that were accidently banned for 3 days with no reason. No apology needs to be handed out to those that exploited the system, no matter how they (the exploiters) try to rationalize exploiting, its fairly clear on its face that MEOW teams were exploits. While I grant that the devs have the authority and can temp ban accounts for exploits I still dont neccesarily agree with it. I don't always agree with what the developers have decided in the past, however in this case their decision to run a script hurt players that may have never stepped foot inside a Architect Building and more than have stayed away from exploits. Furthermore I think the handling of the ban, no response from the devs in any way, no " we understand that there are players who have been erroniously banned, if you think you are one of those please contact customer service and we will take care of that right away", nothing, in fact until recently any talk of it was deleted.
My biggest beef though is just how it was supposed to be case by case and instead they ran a script to ban folks. The fact that they have a script for that is alarming. The time they spent writing that script would have been better spent fixing the rikti com officers in beta before going live, it would have saved them a lot of headache, a lot of goodwill, and a handfull of subscriptions.
maybe next time they will listen and fix the massive exploits before sending it live and having to do the same thing all over again.
[ QUOTE ]
maybe next time they will listen and fix the massive exploits before sending it live and having to do the same thing all over again.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL - I'd like to see that
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All the other stuff was okay because it wasn't using the MA. But the minute someone uses this "creative content outlet tool" for "non-creative" purposes, all hell breaks loose. And, I've gotta agree with Iggy. A nice long post apologizing for removing badges is nice, but where's the nice long post apologizing for removing characters and banning accounts (especially those that were done on accident)?
[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the apology needs to be to the community for all the people that were accidently banned for 3 days with no reason. No apology needs to be handed out to those that exploited the system, no matter how they (the exploiters) try to rationalize exploiting, its fairly clear on its face that MEOW teams were exploits. While I grant that the devs have the authority and can temp ban accounts for exploits I still dont neccesarily agree with it. I don't always agree with what the developers have decided in the past, however in this case their decision to run a script hurt players that may have never stepped foot inside a Architect Building and more than have stayed away from exploits. Furthermore I think the handling of the ban, no response from the devs in any way, no " we understand that there are players who have been erroniously banned, if you think you are one of those please contact customer service and we will take care of that right away", nothing, in fact until recently any talk of it was deleted.
My biggest beef though is just how it was supposed to be case by case and instead they ran a script to ban folks. The fact that they have a script for that is alarming. The time they spent writing that script would have been better spent fixing the rikti com officers in beta before going live, it would have saved them a lot of headache, a lot of goodwill, and a handfull of subscriptions.
maybe next time they will listen and fix the massive exploits before sending it live and having to do the same thing all over again.
[/ QUOTE ]
I used to think about exploiting the same way you did, that Meows are ebil and everything worse is ebiller.
I don't think that anymore. After all, the players already set up the conditions to exploit things the way the system was before MA even existed. And those conditions were considered acceptable enough for the developers.
If the devs don't want to publish the conditions of exploitation, then they must accept a cat and mouse game of individual tweaks and banning isn't an acceptable solution. After all, the devs already claimed that they have improved tools to spot exploiters quickly and accurately. If that is the case, then there should have been no need to write a script, the red lights on their Exploitermatic Detector 2000 should have been blinking red lights continually.
In a sense, MA isn't any different than the way farms currently work, or even the way people set up teams. If the devs find that the risk/reward ratios for certain missions/mobs is unacceptable, they should fix that problem, and not attempt to work over the player after the fact. In a sense, that's like working a red light camera. The devs already claim to have real time tools for enforcement, so why are they relying on some after-the-fact tool (and I'm not referring to Posi)?
Demon farms, Dreck farms, Family farms, Wolf farms, they all existed before MA, yet they were tolerated. Even the devs had set up conditions themselves to encourage farming by wanting 10,000 rikti monkeys, or Illusionist farms for badges and accolades. The plethora of badges that were released with MA only served to encourage that fact, yet somehow the players are at fault for playing the game with the way the rules were set up to encourage farming.
What is going to be considered abuse next? Changing your rep from heroic to invincible and not being challenged by it? Inviting more players to fill a team for larger spawns? Standing by the door while the tank runs around on the mission map? MMs going afk while their pets defeat foes? Dropping a Heavy and then using PFF? Running the same TF more than twice a week? Resetting a mission without completing it? Having teammates that are at the min-max level limit for better xp? Not reporting yourself for disintegration?
I think that the devs are punishing the players for the developer's failings in properly locking down the MA, and even worse, not even acknowledging the situation, or even worse than that, suppressing those that point that out. The pact ban is just icing on the fiasco cake.
Now many people are afraid of a McCarthy era inquiry where all it takes is someone to accuse you of creating a 'farm' mission and you're going to have your mission slot locked out and a bunch of your 50s facing a panel of Freedom Phalanx asking questions into microphones at you. Either make a clear set of rules to be enforced, or only ban the worst of the worst in an open inquiry. Not providing a clear set of rules and then banning people for 'rules violations' sounds suspiciously like Venezuela or China. Nice places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*runs a script to ban all the bugs from the forums*
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Wut? You're still here?
I completely agree with the apology to those banned collaterally, but I know it won't happen because it would require the developers to publicly admit they've made a mistake and that seems to be rare, both under the old team and the new one. I do not, however, agree that character deletions and temp bans were the appropriate way to handle how the MA was being used. Meow farms weren't an exploit. Were they too good to be true? Of course, anyone can see that. Now the "Welcome to Vanguard" Ouroboros flashback, and Snake Eggs, and Mole Machines, and the I13 launch merit bug... those were exploits. What's shocking here is that there was no acknowledgment of those exploits happening on the forums aside from patch notes, no one was banned, nothing was taken away, and no characters were deleted.
When I14 went live the warnings we were given amounted to "missions that can be used to gain a statistical advantage may be removed and the authors may have their MA access revoked or their account banned." Character deletion was not mentioned. That threat was first brought up by Positron in his "Abusing Mission Architect" post, during which time he said what basically amounted to "only the worst cases will be removed, and only on a case-by-case basis, and you probably won't lose your PL'd character." Neither of those three was actually the case. Retroactively deleting characters and banning accounts for vague potential infractions simply because they were done using the dev team's "shiny new toy" was both odd and alarming. So was the complete squelching of all mention of said deletions and bannings on the forums. I can't fault the moderators for having to enforce such asinine policies. The complete silence on the part of the leadership of this game is saddening and is likely a large reason why so many are simply giving up.
As for releasing something like this without letting "exploits" go live, even though warnings were given by testers? The dev team seems to have very selective hearing the last six months or so - they do listen to their players but they only hear what they want to hear.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I didn't hear you.
What?
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All the other stuff was okay because it wasn't using the MA. But the minute someone uses this "creative content outlet tool" for "non-creative" purposes, all hell breaks loose. And, I've gotta agree with Iggy. A nice long post apologizing for removing badges is nice, but where's the nice long post apologizing for removing characters and banning accounts (especially those that were done on accident)?
[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the apology needs to be to the community for all the people that were accidently banned for 3 days with no reason. No apology needs to be handed out to those that exploited the system, no matter how they (the exploiters) try to rationalize exploiting, its fairly clear on its face that MEOW teams were exploits. While I grant that the devs have the authority and can temp ban accounts for exploits I still dont neccesarily agree with it. I don't always agree with what the developers have decided in the past, however in this case their decision to run a script hurt players that may have never stepped foot inside a Architect Building and more than have stayed away from exploits. Furthermore I think the handling of the ban, no response from the devs in any way, no " we understand that there are players who have been erroniously banned, if you think you are one of those please contact customer service and we will take care of that right away", nothing, in fact until recently any talk of it was deleted.
My biggest beef though is just how it was supposed to be case by case and instead they ran a script to ban folks. The fact that they have a script for that is alarming. The time they spent writing that script would have been better spent fixing the rikti com officers in beta before going live, it would have saved them a lot of headache, a lot of goodwill, and a handfull of subscriptions.
maybe next time they will listen and fix the massive exploits before sending it live and having to do the same thing all over again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Snipped. (Basically: Exploits are cool, I exploit, everyone does. Getting to 50 in 8 hours is the same thing as getting there in a few days. Hyperbole, blah blah.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I want to go through and comment about all the ways I think you are wrong. However, I just don't have the energy... and no one who reads it will care anyway. All of the "ebil farmers" and "ebiler PLers" will continue to hold their beliefs, and all of us "stupid non-farmers" will continue to hold ours.
And, for the record, I don't think that the folks in charge of those bannings handled things well. I think that an acknowledgement at the very least should be made regarding what happened and how. However, if you level pact a character and get its pact-mate to 50 and never play the other character, there is something wrong there. To me, that is exploiting the system (there are several exceptions to this opinion however, a lot, actually).
[ QUOTE ]
However, if you level pact a character and get its pact-mate to 50 and never play the other character, there is something wrong there. To me, that is exploiting the system (there are several exceptions to this opinion however, a lot, actually).
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I was under the impression that level pacts were supposed to be used to gain XP for both characters even if both weren't online. Seems like a legitimate use to me.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I thought that the active pact partner had to do twice the work to get to 50.
2 x work = 2 x 50s
Where's the exploit again?
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Snipped. (Basically: Exploits are cool, I exploit, everyone does. Getting to 50 in 8 hours is the same thing as getting there in a few days. Hyperbole, blah blah.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I want to go through and comment about all the ways I think you are wrong. However, I just don't have the energy... and no one who reads it will care anyway. All of the "ebil farmers" and "ebiler PLers" will continue to hold their beliefs, and all of us "stupid non-farmers" will continue to hold ours.
And, for the record, I don't think that the folks in charge of those bannings handled things well. I think that an acknowledgement at the very least should be made regarding what happened and how. However, if you level pact a character and get its pact-mate to 50 and never play the other character, there is something wrong there. To me, that is exploiting the system (there are several exceptions to this opinion however, a lot, actually).
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. If you actually played with me, you'd realize that #1 I don't farm. #2 I don't PL. You're just putting me into your convenient factions so you can attempt to bash my PoV. I never even said anything about non-farmers being 'stupid'. You said that just so you could feign being offended.
If you're going to troll you have to be a lot more subtle and smarter than that. I'd suggest you save that energy for posting and come up with something better than a convenient 'snip'.
And how is it that you are offended somehow that someone level pacts their toons to get to 50 without playing. The other pacted person is basically going through 100 levels to assume the burden. If you don't think the developers had thought of that before implementing the system, I think you've done a disservice to their intelligence. I'd suggest worshiping at a different altar then.
Just because something offends you it appears that you feel that somehow it shouldn't be done, when it doesn't affect you in the slightest if you choose not to participate in it.
And if you feel that no one will care if you post anyhow, I'd prefer if you didn't even begin in the first place. Either step up and put in a cogent well-argued response, or don't even start. It just makes you look bad to claim, 1) I'm too tired to refute your argument 2) If I think something is vaguely wrong then it shouldn't be approved 3) No one's going to read or reply so it's time to play the victim card.
[ QUOTE ]
I thought that the active pact partner had to do twice the work to get to 50.
2 x work = 2 x 50s
Where's the exploit again?
[/ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't be twice the work if one of the characters PLed their way to 50. Again, I said there were A LOT of exceptions.
[ QUOTE ]
LOL. If you actually played with me, you'd realize that #1 I don't farm. #2 I don't PL.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whether you farm or not, it doesn't change the PoV you were endorsing, does it?
[ QUOTE ]
You're just putting me into your convenient factions so you can attempt to bash my PoV. I never even said anything about non-farmers being 'stupid'. You said that just so you could feign being offended.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I said it to belittle the debate itself. It has been done to death (odd that I am still participating). Also, to hightlight how many on each side of the debate sees the other side. I only used the word "ebil" from your post as it is decidedly a silly word.
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to troll you have to be a lot more subtle and smarter than that. I'd suggest you save that energy for posting and come up with something better than a convenient 'snip'.
[/ QUOTE ]
It was a tad "trollish," wasn't it? I guess I have grown a bit tired of reading the same arguments over and over again (hence the comment about me being tired). It seems like every time (regardless of what may have been presented before) the argument never changes (not directed at you personally).
[ QUOTE ]
And how is it that you are offended somehow that someone level pacts their toons to get to 50 without playing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Offended? Hardly. It just doesn't seem right to use a feature that was designed to alleviate some of the pitfalls of being a casual player who's friends with someone he never sees, as a way to get two level 50 characters. Whether or not the work is doubled, you are still playing one character and getting another (on a seperate account I might add) to 50 without touching it.
[ QUOTE ]
The other pacted person is basically going through 100 levels to assume the burden. If you don't think the developers had thought of that before implementing the system, I think you've done a disservice to their intelligence. I'd suggest worshiping at a different altar then.
.
Just because something offends you it appears that you feel that somehow it shouldn't be done, when it doesn't affect you in the slightest if you choose not to participate in it.
[/ QUOTE ]
If any PLing is involved, the "burden" you mentioned is circumvented. Also, I recently saw that a Super Team was going to be using Pacts to slow down their leveling progress. is that exploiting the system? A little bit. You are getting characters to 50 that you know will have an easy (and fun, I would imagine) ride, and getting some freebie 50s on the side.
[ QUOTE ]
And if you feel that no one will care if you post anyhow, I'd prefer if you didn't even begin in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I don't care what you "prefer." Secondly, my point was that no matter how many posts and threads talk about farming and not-farming, no one seems to change their minds. So, if I the ability, I would remove all of these pointless arguments and discussions. But, they are here, and I feel compelled to argue against them, on occasion.
[ QUOTE ]
Either step up and put in a cogent well-argued response, or don't even start. It just makes you look bad to claim, 1) I'm too tired to refute your argument 2) If I think something is vaguely wrong then it shouldn't be approved 3) No one's going to read or reply so it's time to play the victim card.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) I already said why I stated that.
2) Of course if I think something is wrong I don't think it should be approved of. But besides that, aren't you arguing the same thing? You seem to believe (though you don't do it yourself, apparently) that there is nothing wrong with farming or exploiting the game... and are saying that people shouldn't disapprove. How is that different than what I am saying, again?
3) I didn't say no one would reply... I was pretty sure someone would, eventually. Again, I already stated my reasoning for that part. And where is this "Victim Card"? I never claimed that I was hurt by anything or that anyone should pity me... that is still what playing the victim means, right? Or did they stealth a change of that?
Try this one on... People PL'ing the [censored] out of all of their toons doesn't affect you or anyone else negatively and they should be allowed to play however the [censored] they want to as long as they are not keeping others from playing however the [censored] they want to.
I'm well aware this is not a popular opinion.. and you know what? I really don't give a [censored] because the fact that it doesn't affect you is the truth. There's arguments that say it bothers them because of Point A or Example B, but those are usually very weak reasons. The idea that PL'ing is somehow horrible and needs to be stopped at all costs!! is very humorous to me.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
[ QUOTE ]
Try this one on... People PL'ing the [censored] out of all of their toons doesn't affect you or anyone else negatively and they should be allowed to play however the [censored] they want to as long as they are not keeping others from playing however the [censored] they want to.
I'm well aware this is not a popular opinion.. and you know what? I really don't give a [censored] because the fact that it doesn't affect you is the truth. There's arguments that say it bothers them because of Point A or Example B, but those are usually very weak reasons. The idea that PL'ing is somehow horrible and needs to be stopped at all costs!! is very humorous to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Try this one on... People PL'ing the [censored] out of all of their toons doesn't affect you or anyone else negatively and they should be allowed to play however the [censored] they want to as long as they are not keeping others from playing however the [censored] they want to.
I'm well aware this is not a popular opinion.. and you know what? I really don't give a [censored] because the fact that it doesn't affect you is the truth. There's arguments that say it bothers them because of Point A or Example B, but those are usually very weak reasons. The idea that PL'ing is somehow horrible and needs to be stopped at all costs!! is very humorous to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
[/ QUOTE ]
Completely agree, even though I don't like PLing, I can understand why people want to do it, and I also understand that it doesn't hurt me in any way.
Your entire original argument that eveyone's positions are entrenched (and therefore the discussion is not worth having) is rendered moot by the fact that in my first sentence I said that I used to agree with your position, yet now I do not.
I'm not espousing anybody's point of view other than saying everyone should be able to play the game they want want to play it, and as long as they aren't interfering with your in game play, why should it bother you? You may want to read this article and consider how open you really are to the other side's position.
So you may either refute my existence to continue claiming that any discussion will not change anyone's mind, or you can change your position to allow for any reasonable discussion on PL and farming. Simply claiming that no one cares, that you're somehow tired of it doesn't give you some kind of free hit-and-run card of claiming that the other side is not going to listen to you.
As well, you're the one who put the 'stupid' label on non farmers and said that PoV was "ours", which implies that PLers and Farmers have already started ad hominem attacks against you. Hence, victim status. No one on the Justice forum has ever claimed that people who didn't want to farm or PL were 'stupid'. Don't bring that junk in here. Also I didn't call PLers or Farmers 'ebil'...you did. I said that the Meows and worse were ebil, which they were because they (the mishes) got banned.
I don't agree with PLing, farming I can see what they are doing. But that has no bearing on whether I think it is allowable. Don't conflate the two. Morality should not be legality.
Your example of PLing someone with a level pact is even more specious than the original one. A PLed toon is really orthogonal to the pact concept. Besides, it means that the PLer has to work twice as hard to get the PLee to level, and therefore assumes all of the burden and risk to do so. No one is getting something for nothing. Whatever arrangement the PL team has made for xp has nothing to do with you or me. Doesn't affect me so why should I be bothered. I'd be more bothered if they stopped paying their (multiple) $15 a month, since that does affect the bottom line of the game so improvements would be slower in coming.
And if you're offended because the pacted toon will level from 1 to 50 (or anywhere in between) for 'no work involved,' then somehow no toon should receive any 'free ride'? Should this include no veteran powers or attacks? Are you going to argue that the mechanics of the game that allow for people to optimize the game in a meta fashion are gaming the system (ie. exploiting)? Would that include someone who designs a pocket emp, without any attacks, is going to be exploiting because they aren't defeating anything themselves and therefore are getting undeserved xp? Is the blaster who hits and runs to hide behind a corner evading the mechanics of the game and therefore exploiting the system?
Let me give you a hint. The developers are human, just like us. The eat, drink, and have other bodily functions that aren't so pleasant. The also have opinions that you and I will not agree with. The big difference between us and them is that they set up the conditions of the game in which we play. If they don't like the way we play, they should change the conditions of the game, and not retroactively penalize the players who played in a manner they didn't like.
*runs a script to ban all the bugs from the forums*