Self-Stealth and -Percerption powers...
By
Fleeting Whisper,
Posted on: 2009-05-20 12:07 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Hidden is actually a flag for all three ATs that get it, that activate secondary damage (Yes, even in SoAs) when the target's in that state. And is also technically granted by Placate, though iirc that's bugged.
A lot of -Percep powers also include a -Hit component as well, though often times this isn't exactly a very large bonus (some exceptions do apply - I do believe Flash Arrow is has the biggest -Hit component, but also one of the smaller -Percep ones; I'd have to actually look it all up to be sure). In that same vein, a lot of +Stealth powers also include a secondary benefit (almost universally +Defense[All], with one of the bigger exceptions being Super Speed which instead grants... uh. +Speed). It seems sort of trivial, but bear in mind that most often, this bonus is usually 50% of that offered by powers that grant only pure +Defense(All) to just the user (Weave, Tough Hide) as well.
I don't think they're underwhelming at all, honestly. The benefit they tend to give, however, is more tactical then it is mechanical. And one that I tend to make use of when I can.
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Hidden is actually a flag for all three ATs that get it, that activate secondary damage (Yes, even in SoAs) when the target's in that state. And is also technically granted by Placate, though iirc that's bugged.
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Ah. Then perhaps just a higher stealth radius on these powers.
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A lot of -Percep powers also include a -Hit component as well, though often times this isn't exactly a very large bonus (some exceptions do apply - I do believe Flash Arrow is has the biggest -Hit component, but also one of the smaller -Percep ones; I'd have to actually look it all up to be sure).
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-6.25% for Defenders, -5% for Trollers, and still -90% Perception, at least what is listed on Mid's. Mainly, I just compared them to Blinding Powder, and Seeker Drone to a lesser content, and thought they'd be much handier if they also had a added, chance at least, for a blind/confuse.
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In that same vein, a lot of +Stealth powers also include a secondary benefit (almost universally +Defense[All], with one of the bigger exceptions being Super Speed which instead grants... uh. +Speed). It seems sort of trivial, but bear in mind that most often, this bonus is usually 50% of that offered by powers that grant only pure +Defense(All) to just the user (Weave, Tough Hide) as well.
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True, I never complain about being able to stack more defense. Maybe it's just all the other options I have now, and how it easy it is even to get +def through IO bonuses, as well as the +stealth. /shrug
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I don't think they're underwhelming at all, honestly. The benefit they tend to give, however, is more tactical then it is mechanical. And one that I tend to make use of when I can.
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Just thinking they may not be as tactically capable as they could be in comparison, considering the scope of all else that is available now. A small mechanical boost would only increase their tactical use.
I know, definately something very minor to bring up...
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Self-Stealth and -Perception powers in primary and secondary powersets seem very underwhelming to anyone else?
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No. They serve the purpose for which they were designed, and they're very easy to use for gaining an advantage against standard foes.
One Stealth power and one -Perception power combine to grant the user the equivalent of full Invisibility, without the limitation of being incapable of attacking or affecting teammates.
Even without stacking them, single Stealth buffs or Perception debuffs allow a player to get closer to critters and spawns, assess situations and line up cones or get close enough to use powers with shorter ranges, all with less chance of accidental or early aggro.
The Stealth powers offered in primaries and secondaries also don't debuff movement speed, like Stealth from the Concealment pool. That's their advantage over Concealment > Stealth.
The -Perception powers with -ToHit also tend to give more damage mitigation than comparable Stealth powers. That little 6.25% -ToHit I have with Flash Arrow can be enhanced up to ~9.75%, it doesn't suppress when I attack and it has no endurance cost after the initial use (as opposed to the endurance usage of toggles).
All of these types of powers are fine just as they are. If you really disagree, go take a look at the market values of Stealth IOs, or the advice given on these forums regarding picking up Super Speed and stacking it with absolutely any form of +Stealth or -Perception. They're popular because players recognize the benefits of Stealth, even plain old Stealth that doesn't offer a Defense buff or ToHit debuff. They don't need to be closer to full Invisibility, and if they were, they'd be penalized in some way to compensate.
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Would it be possible to allow the above Stealth Powers to offer a Hidden status and a higher degree of stealth, such as SoA's have, for just the powersets which have them? Nothing like extra damage on attacks from Hide, as that's the Stalker's inherent and niche.
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Extremely unlikely, because it would move these powers into the niche that the various forms of Invisibility occupy. If you turn Stealth/-Perception into Invisibility, what do you turn Invisibility into? It creates a situation of escalation and power creep to provide a solution to a problem that didn't exist.
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Then, I see -perception powers such as Blinding Powder and Seeker Drones offer some control as well. Blinding Powder is a sleep with chance of confuse, and Seeker Drones have a stun component. Would there be a reason Smoke Grenade and Smoke couldn't receive a similar benefit?
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If you add a "chance to" to these types of powers, then you encourage players to waste time and endurance "spamming" the power(s) in hope of triggering the effect. That was exactly why the hit check for Flash Arrow's (and Smoke's) -ToHit was removed years ago, it was forcing players to repeatedly apply the power until they could be certain they'd properly debuffed spawns. Turning around and adding hit checks back to these powers wouldn't improve them, it would just repeat that mistake.
It could, conceivably, also result in the -Perception of these powers being negated, as evidenced by existing ToHit Debuff procs. If the bonus control/debuff is deemed "too good", it could be flagged to generate aggro, and then the basic function of the power itself is destroyed. So the bonus would either be so negligible as to be a waste of time to add, or be useful and good enough to be worth having but result in the power itself becoming invalidated for the very thing for which it was designed.
As IOs, it's very possible that some special debuffs or controls could be added. But as additional effects baked into the powers, highly unlikely and something I'd vehemently oppose.
I know when my logic has been defeated...
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Hidden is actually a flag for all three ATs that get it, that activate secondary damage (Yes, even in SoAs) when the target's in that state. And is also technically granted by Placate, though iirc that's bugged.
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Also, "Hidden", "Fury" and "Domination" are all the same thing to the game - the AT's powers are set to use them in different ways. As such, the Hidden flag COULDN'T be used on /EA and /Dark brutes, at the very least.
Well it could, but by my understanding, as soon as they stealthed and got the "Hidden" flag, their Fury Bar would fill, and stay full until they attacked, then the suppression of the "Hidden" status would force them to 0 Fury until the toggle was turned off, or Hide unsurpressed.
I agree with upping the stealth radius though, on some of the powers at least. Primary/Secondary powers are supposed to be better than pool powers, but the main difference between Pri/Sec stealth and pool stealth is the speed debuff, which can be canceled by Swift - a power many people would have anyways.
Furthermore, bosses (and maybe Lts, not sure) can see you through a lot of stealth powers, even if they don't have +perception. That just seems wrong to me.
@Roderick
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Hidden is actually a flag for all three ATs that get it, that activate secondary damage (Yes, even in SoAs) when the target's in that state. And is also technically granted by Placate, though iirc that's bugged.
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Ah. Then perhaps just a higher stealth radius on these powers.
[/ QUOTE ]Superior Invisibility: 200ft PvE/1000ft PvP
Hide: 150ft PvE/500ft PvP
Group Invisibility: 60ft PvE/667ft PvP
Controller stealth cap: 200ft PvE/571.5ft PvP
AV perception: 54ft
GM perception: 100ft
Sniper perception: 149ft
The other powers you mention are standard for stealth powers (35ft PvE/389ft PvP).
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Hidden is actually a flag for all three ATs that get it, that activate secondary damage (Yes, even in SoAs) when the target's in that state. And is also technically granted by Placate, though iirc that's bugged.
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Ah. Then perhaps just a higher stealth radius on these powers.
[/ QUOTE ]Superior Invisibility: 200ft PvE/1000ft PvP
Hide: 150ft PvE/500ft PvP
Group Invisibility: 60ft PvE/667ft PvP
Controller stealth cap: 200ft PvE/571.5ft PvP
AV perception: 54ft
GM perception: 100ft
Sniper perception: 149ft
The other powers you mention are standard for stealth powers (35ft PvE/389ft PvP).
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Yes, it was those other stealth powers which I was focused on. I was also looking at this from a biased perspective as well perhaps. You see, I have plenty of influence, and Stealth IO's seem just like a drop in the bucket to me. When I see a set like /Energy or /Devices with a stealth power in it, I guess I just expect it to be more mechanically superior than what I can achieve very easily on every other toon I play, by either picking up Stealth or SS + a Stealth IO (which is greater than just a self-stealth power, I'd basically have to combine Smoke Grenade + Cloaking Device to achieve this on a /Devices, or still get a +Stealth IO to stack with CD, which would be the case with others such as Energy Cloak since it has no -Perception power).
Also, I'm a fan of Energy Aura and Devices, but somehow both seem lacking to me in ways. I guess I just considered something more could be done with their self-stealth powers, which sound awesome, yet seem so lacking to myself since it's so easy to achieve on any set for me.
Self-Stealth and -Perception powers in primary and secondary powersets seem very underwhelming to anyone else?
I'm talking about Cloaking Device, Energy Cloak, Cloak of Darkness, Superior Invisibility, and Shadow Cloak.
As well as Smoke and Smoke Grenade as -Perception powers.
Would it be possible to allow the above Stealth Powers to offer a Hidden status and a higher degree of stealth, such as SoA's have, for just the powersets which have them? Nothing like extra damage on attacks from Hide, as that's the Stalker's inherent and niche.
Then, I see -perception powers such as Blinding Powder and Seeker Drones offer some control as well. Blinding Powder is a sleep with chance of confuse, and Seeker Drones have a stun component. Would there be a reason Smoke Grenade and Smoke couldn't receive a similar benefit? Being surrounded in Smoke, very similar to being blinded by powder, would make sense to offer the same sleep or at least a small chance for confuse as well.
With IO's now, I've just always overlooked self-stealth powers as meaningless considering I could always pick up stealth + Stealth IO, or SS + stealth IO, stealth + SS, to basically grant the same stealth bonus. The defensive bonus of the primary/secondary self-stealth powers is pretty trivial as well.
Ok, that's all I got.