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I still say it's a weak argument.
The solo part is irrelevant.
The question is who gets more out of the powerset, not who does more damage, or who is better solo, or even who is better on a team. Corruptors actually benefit from the +Damage parts of the powers, MMs do not. That's my entire point.
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Neither class, solo, can get the benefit of the rez buff. You solo. Corr's cant use the ally only buffs, and heal. An MM can, at least, use the ally only buffs on his pets, and frankly, a Bruser with Painbringer on him is a monster...
And in a team setting, they both have full access to all there powers benefits. A Corr will indeed get more out of it's rez selfbuff cause Corr's can do some decent damage, and MM damage is a joke. (his PERSONAL 3 attacks. Not MMs in genearal.) Heck, i didn't even train my dual pistols on my MM, cause, dispite the cool factor, the attacks are weak.. and the powerchoices are better used eleseware. But, IMO, an MM has more flexability at doing his job, he doesn't have to worry about dealing dmg, the pets will do that, while he plays team support. So, the Corr, when he fails at his job of keeping people alive, will benefit from the buff of the rez... Heh. So yeah, when your teammates die, you do get alittle more from powerset then an MM.. but if your good at your job.. you never see the buff anyways. Hardly a major plus in MY book, but again, that's IMO.
I'm not saying a Corr makes a BAD pain dom, i just think MM's do it better. *shrug*
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I know Sonic Blast is good and I've been wanting to try Energy Blast. Maybe I'll try Energy blast. I just know a lot of Brutes will hate me.
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Not just Brutes, but Stalkers, MMs and Corruptors with anchor-based debuffs. I did NRG blast hero side twice, I would never touch it again.
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The KB in energy blast is not a problem if you teach yourself to AIM toward walls, corners, etc. Use KB to knock them TOWARD the brute, he will appreciate it.
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While I don't disagree, in my experience with the set there were too many times I couldn't position myself properly to do that. Narrow hallways or caves are often too restrictive. Other times I'd hop over somewhere to aim my KB and in the meantime the mobs had moved around or someone else had KB'ed them to another spot. Then there were the times I repositioned myself to aim my KB and grabbed aggro from another group of mobs I hadn't seen. Player error there of course, but if I was going to play the set again I'd either go the hover-blaster route, or take a secondary with non-suppressing stealth to facilitate positioning. Possibly both.
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I know Sonic Blast is good and I've been wanting to try Energy Blast. Maybe I'll try Energy blast. I just know a lot of Brutes will hate me.
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Not just Brutes, but Stalkers, MMs and Corruptors with anchor-based debuffs. I did NRG blast hero side twice, I would never touch it again.
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The KB in energy blast is not a problem if you teach yourself to AIM toward walls, corners, etc. Use KB to knock them TOWARD the brute, he will appreciate it.
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While I don't disagree, in my experience with the set there were too many times I couldn't position myself properly to do that. Narrow hallways or caves are often too restrictive. Other times I'd hop over somewhere to aim my KB and in the meantime the mobs had moved around or someone else had KB'ed them to another spot. Then there were the times I repositioned myself to aim my KB and grabbed aggro from another group of mobs I hadn't seen. Player error there of course, but if I was going to play the set again I'd either go the hover-blaster route, or take a secondary with non-suppressing stealth to facilitate positioning. Possibly both.
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My advice to getting good with knockback is play a stormy. You practice long enough, you'll get alot better at placing stuff, i promise you. But, even the best of users can't always place stuff perfectly all the time.
I've evolved over my 5 years in game to HATING STORM USERS GUTS... cause i was a grav/kin and knockback was EVIL to me, to being the guy USING the Stormy and going nuts with knockback. 
And now a days, i don't care so much on teams that are knockback heavy. if i'm a melee, i target a different mob when one is knocked away. If i'm a blaster, bah, it never hardly matters unless the screw up my AoE's, and even then, it happens. They'll learn, or they'll get frustrated and play something else.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
The point I was making, again, has nothing to do with the total damage output, or the total contribution to the team.
All I'm saying is the self buffing portions of the powers are used by a corruptor on a team.
The MM on a team uses all the ally buffs and the debuffs just like the corr does, and his pets contribute a ton of damage, but he does not use the self buffing portions at all.
Therefore there are aspects of Pain that ONLY the corr benefits from.
That was my entire point.
Your side point of "MMs are just better than Corrs, so an MM with Pain is better than a Corr with Pain" really doesn't address the point I was making at all.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Therefore there are aspects of Pain that ONLY the corr benefits from.
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But that just isn't true. the "ONLY" part that is. If your were to say, a Corr gets more out of the buffs then the avg MM. Then yeah, but MMs can attack and thus can benefit from them too. Most don't attack and thus don't benefit at all true, MOST, but that doesn't hold true for all MM's.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
It's ridiculous what you're saying.
Almost no Sensibly built MM does any damage that will be buffed by Pain Dom at all.
Your point is that MMs are better than Corrs, not that Pain is any better for MMs than it is for Corrs.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It's ridiculous what you're saying.
Almost no Sensibly built MM does any damage that will be buffed by Pain Dom at all.
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Just had to comment on this bit. Many masterminds can benefit from taking at least one of their primary attacks. It's entirely dependent on spec, build, and the effects you want to achieve.
For instance, my Thug/Pain MM has two of her primary attacks. By doing so, I gain +4.5% more health and +24% more regen. And it cost me next to nothing in terms of effectiveness, since I wasn't going to take Share Pain anyway, and in fact makes me MORE effective in many cases, because I can contribute to the total damage output of my pets. Do I do equivalent damage that my pets are churning out? Of course not. But being able to add in an extra 100 damage every 2-3 seconds or so is a nice benefit. I can finish off runners, knock bosses onto their rears with Dual Wield, and kill off low-health mobs so that my bruiser doesn't end up wasting KOBlow on a mob with 50 hp left.
Likewise, with several of my other masterminds, I quite often take one of the attacks, for IO set benefits. Either increased recovery, regeneration, defense, recharge, or any number of other things.
Could I be 2% more effective if I took a different power? Perhaps. But I don't sweat that little of an improvement.
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
Ok, so my bro and I both made Sonic/Pain. We are only lvl 7 right now.
We do not like Share Pain. I was really looking forward to this power as it is kinda unique.
I see I got hurt quite a bit but what I did not know is the 100% resistance to healing for 15s?? Are you kidding me? 25% Damage Buff isn't THAT much and it only lasts 15s.
Is it me or I feel Pain Domination is kinda weak? We are still going to keep lvling but Share Pain is really kinda sucky.
I mean they can at least make damage buff last longer or reduce the healing resistance to like 5s. 15s immue to healing? WTf??
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Ok, so my bro and I both made Sonic/Pain. We are only lvl 7 right now.
We do not like Share Pain. I was really looking forward to this power as it is kinda unique.
I see I got hurt quite a bit but what I did not know is the 100% resistance to healing for 15s?? Are you kidding me? 25% Damage Buff isn't THAT much and it only lasts 15s.
Is it me or I feel Pain Domination is kinda weak? We are still going to keep lvling but Share Pain is really kinda sucky.
I mean they can at least make damage buff last longer or reduce the healing resistance to like 5s. 15s immue to healing? WTf??
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Share pain works much better for MM's due to bodyguard spreading the -health out and because their soothing aura power is +regen, rather than a heal. So while share pain does -regen it is only 100%, which is very easy to overcome.
The corr version of soothign aura is +regen in pvp as well, which imo makes it a much better power than in pve.
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It's ridiculous what you're saying.
Almost no Sensibly built MM does any damage that will be buffed by Pain Dom at all.
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Just had to comment on this bit. Many masterminds can benefit from taking at least one of their primary attacks. It's entirely dependent on spec, build, and the effects you want to achieve.
For instance, my Thug/Pain MM has two of her primary attacks. By doing so, I gain +4.5% more health and +24% more regen. And it cost me next to nothing in terms of effectiveness, since I wasn't going to take Share Pain anyway, and in fact makes me MORE effective in many cases, because I can contribute to the total damage output of my pets. Do I do equivalent damage that my pets are churning out? Of course not. But being able to add in an extra 100 damage every 2-3 seconds or so is a nice benefit. I can finish off runners, knock bosses onto their rears with Dual Wield, and kill off low-health mobs so that my bruiser doesn't end up wasting KOBlow on a mob with 50 hp left.
Likewise, with several of my other masterminds, I quite often take one of the attacks, for IO set benefits. Either increased recovery, regeneration, defense, recharge, or any number of other things.
Could I be 2% more effective if I took a different power? Perhaps. But I don't sweat that little of an improvement.
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That's nice, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion you quoted.
Taking an attack for IO purposes has nothing to do with actually doing damage with that attack.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Ok, so my bro and I both made Sonic/Pain. We are only lvl 7 right now.
We do not like Share Pain. I was really looking forward to this power as it is kinda unique.
I see I got hurt quite a bit but what I did not know is the 100% resistance to healing for 15s?? Are you kidding me? 25% Damage Buff isn't THAT much and it only lasts 15s.
Is it me or I feel Pain Domination is kinda weak? We are still going to keep lvling but Share Pain is really kinda sucky.
I mean they can at least make damage buff last longer or reduce the healing resistance to like 5s. 15s immue to healing? WTf??
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Share pain works much better for MM's due to bodyguard spreading the -health out and because their soothing aura power is +regen, rather than a heal. So while share pain does -regen it is only 100%, which is very easy to overcome.
The corr version of soothign aura is +regen in pvp as well, which imo makes it a much better power than in pve.
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I see because you can have +regen higher than 100% but you can't have healing % higher than 100%.
I don't know...I feel Pain is quite weak right now. Share Pain is quite a disappointment. I already hurt myself when I use it but what's worse is I can't get healed at all for 15s? You gotta be kidding me.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Ok, so my bro and I both made Sonic/Pain. We are only lvl 7 right now.
We do not like Share Pain. I was really looking forward to this power as it is kinda unique.
I see I got hurt quite a bit but what I did not know is the 100% resistance to healing for 15s?? Are you kidding me? 25% Damage Buff isn't THAT much and it only lasts 15s.
Is it me or I feel Pain Domination is kinda weak? We are still going to keep lvling but Share Pain is really kinda sucky.
I mean they can at least make damage buff last longer or reduce the healing resistance to like 5s. 15s immue to healing? WTf??
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Share pain works much better for MM's due to bodyguard spreading the -health out and because their soothing aura power is +regen, rather than a heal. So while share pain does -regen it is only 100%, which is very easy to overcome.
The corr version of soothign aura is +regen in pvp as well, which imo makes it a much better power than in pve.
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I see because you can have +regen higher than 100% but you can't have healing % higher than 100%.
I don't know...I feel Pain is quite weak right now. Share Pain is quite a disappointment. I already hurt myself when I use it but what's worse is I can't get healed at all for 15s? You gotta be kidding me.
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I haven't used it outside of MM's. But ya my understanding is that it works much better on them.
I did draw up a pvp pain corr that has just shy of 800% regen thanks in part to soothing aura being regen in pvp rather than a pulse heal. It actually seemed like it could be pretty snazy. But alas, lolpvp.
I don't see the draw of playing a pain corr personally, but for MM's it seems like a very great set. I mean even solo you get to use everything, which as an ally centric set is pretty nice.
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That's nice, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion you quoted.
Taking an attack for IO purposes has nothing to do with actually doing damage with that attack.
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And as I stated within what you quoted, I can also kick out about 100 damage every 2-3 seconds, to add to my pets' overall damage output, as well as the 150ish or so that I can do with Sands of Mu. So yes, actually, I do damage. I was simply pointing out the fallacy of claiming that "almost no sensibly built MM will do damage", which isn't true at all.
That being said, I still don't take Share Pain.
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
I am sorry but I have to rank /Pain as the worst /secondary so far at lvl 15. The only time I dare to use Share Pain is when I play like a chicken !@#$# behind a Brute or somebody that I can babysit. The 25% damage is nice but if I blast too much, I can't get healed at all. I already dislike healing. I think healing is over-rated but not getting healed at all for 15s is beyond retarded.
I don't know why I see so many Pain Corrs. I've teamed with many of them before and I always find them not contributing much. I think I can see why....
That big red ball's radius is so small....
Share Pain needs to reduce that anti-healing resistance to like 5s or get rid of the 10% hurt.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Emps have Absorb Pain, y'know. They don't get anything out of it except the -heal. Also, you're level fifteen. Your powers aren't slotted well, you don't have World of Pain, you don't have Anguishing Cry, and you don't have Painbringer.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Emps have Absorb Pain, y'know. They don't get anything out of it except the -heal. Also, you're level fifteen. Your powers aren't slotted well, you don't have World of Pain, you don't have Anguishing Cry, and you don't have Painbringer.
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Thus I said at lvl 15, I feel Pain is the weakest so far. I am still gonna lvl this toon because I enjoy using Sonic Blast with my twin bro. We just think Pain is quite weak.
PS: And I've never played Empathy....
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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That's nice, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion you quoted.
Taking an attack for IO purposes has nothing to do with actually doing damage with that attack.
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And as I stated within what you quoted, I can also kick out about 100 damage every 2-3 seconds, to add to my pets' overall damage output, as well as the 150ish or so that I can do with Sands of Mu. So yes, actually, I do damage. I was simply pointing out the fallacy of claiming that "almost no sensibly built MM will do damage", which isn't true at all.
That being said, I still don't take Share Pain.
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I'm sorry, but You having made an MM that does damage doesn't mean it is a fallacy to say that sensibly built MMs don't do damage.
Also, even you don't do enough damage to claim that you are getting as much out of the self buffs as a corr would.
And Sands of Mu doesn't get buffed by damage buffs at all.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Corruptors actually benefit from the +Damage parts of the powers, MMs do not
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Just for the record a MM is him and his pets. Without its pets it isnt even a mastermind. So if his pets benefit then he benefits. It may not be the solo benefit because a mastermind is never really solo.
So you both have good points about Pain for Corr vs MM but saying the MM doesnt benefit is wrong. A MM is him AND his pets