Lots of accuracy threw set bonuses and good accuracy on all your attacks, i14 made it way easier to hit defense based toons.
The only change with I14 was reducing elusivity from 30% to 10%, right?
Now is global accuracy affected by enhancement diversification? So say I have about 120% accuracy from enhancements but it is reduced to 99% from enhancement diversification, but I have 60% accuracy from sets, does that mean I have 159% accuracy (99% + 60%)? Or do I have 180% accuracy pre-ED reducted to 110% or so because of ED? Basically, how does the whole accuracy formula work now?
Regardless, I don't think I understand how it all fits together. Say I had 100% accuracy, with 30% elusivity, I would only hit a softcapped toon 8.5% of the time (5% * 1.7) but with the new elusivity at 10%, I would hit him 9.5% of the time (5% * 1.9). Either way they are pretty freakin hard to hit. Have people noticed a huge difference in hitting softcapped toons since I14? I have not tested it in the zones. From my understanding of the formula, softcapped toons were very very very hard to hit, but since I14 they are just very very hard to hit.
If my math is wrong, please let me know. But the from the math I just don't see the elusivity nerf really being a deal breaker for defense toons.
It wasn't just elusivity that was nerfed but defense as well. I'm not sure on all the numbers but since i14 went live I hit defense based toons noticibly more often.
My accuracy on each attack is about 70% and I have about 75% global accuracy but I also have targeting drone plus the perception IO for the to hit buff. Same exact build as i13 but I hit much more often.
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It wasn't just elusivity that was nerfed but defense as well. I'm not sure on all the numbers but since i14 went live I hit defense based toons noticibly more often.
My accuracy on each attack is about 70% and I have about 75% global accuracy but I also have targeting drone plus the perception IO for the to hit buff. Same exact build as i13 but I hit much more often.
[/ QUOTE ]Basically they fixed defense in i13, ppl cried about missing, so they nerfed it again.
Defense is too linear, it's a all or nothing deal.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
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In PvP, what are one's options when fighting a softcapped toon?
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What do you mean by softcapped in PvP? In PvE, 45% is the magic number to floor a critter's chance to hit you (without buffs/debuffs). Do you mean someone with 45% in PvE who then enters a PvP zone? A softcapped scrapper will have around 34% defense after DR is applied in PvP (a defender will have around 18%).
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Now is global accuracy affected by enhancement diversification?
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Any accuracy obtained through set bonuses is not affected by ED.
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Say I had 100% accuracy, with 30% elusivity, I would only hit a softcapped toon 8.5% of the time (5% * 1.7) but with the new elusivity at 10%, I would hit him 9.5% of the time (5% * 1.9).
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Are you saying that the person you are fighting has 45% defense *after* DR?...that would mean the scrapper needs 80% PvE defense (a defender would never get that high as they are capped around 20%). In order to get that high a scrapper would need buffs or Elude. If we assume you have 100% total accuracy, the target has 10% elusivity, and has 45% defense or more *after DR* then your numbers look good.
Chance to hit equation:
cth = clamp( accMod * clamp( baseToHitPvP + toHitMods - DefMods ) )
accMod = inherentPowerAcc * ( 1 + accuracyEnhancments + accBonuses ) * ( 1 - elusivity )
Using your numbers:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
accMod = inherentPowerAcc * ( 1 + 1.0 ) * ( 1 - 0.10 )
= inherentPowerAcc * ( 2.0 ) * ( 0.90 )
= inherentPowerAcc * 1.8
cth = inherentPowerAcc * 1.8 * 0.05
= 9.0% (chance to hit assuming the inherent accuracy is 1.0)
</pre><hr />
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If my math is wrong, please let me know. But the from the math I just don't see the elusivity nerf really being a deal breaker for defense toons.
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Lets use some "realistic" numbers. There will be folks who only fight with Elude up but lets look at what most def based enemies in PvP will have. In PvE, most defense based toon are sitting somewhere between 30% to 45% defense. That translates to somewhere around 24% to 34% in PvP. Your toHit buffs are also affected by DR, and appears to max out around 30%.
So with 100% accuracy, 30% toHit (from BU/IOs/Tactics), and 34% def here are the numbers from i13:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
accMod = inherentPowerAcc * ( 1 + 1.0 ) * ( 1 - 0.30 )
= inherentPowerAcc * ( 2.0 ) * ( 0.70 )
= inherentPowerAcc * 1.4
cth = 1.4 * [0.5 + 0.3 - 0.34]
= 1.4 * [0.46]
= 64% (chance to hit assuming the inherent accuracy is 1.0)
</pre><hr />
now i14 numbers:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
accMod = inherentPowerAcc * 1.8
cth = 1.8 * [0.46]
= 82% (chance to hit assuming the inherent accuracy is 1.0)
</pre><hr />
Deal breaker? I don't know. You could argue that I should not have included the toHit numbers in the calculation...or that 30% is too high, especially with DR. Also keep in mind that while most powers have an inherent accuracy of 1.0, there are some that are higher (looking at you KoB).
Anyway, I though I would respond because there were a couple of things I didn't understand. I did alot of copy/paste so check my numbers.
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It wasn't just elusivity that was nerfed but defense as well. I'm not sure on all the numbers but since i14 went live I hit defense based toons noticibly more often.
My accuracy on each attack is about 70% and I have about 75% global accuracy but I also have targeting drone plus the perception IO for the to hit buff. Same exact build as i13 but I hit much more often.
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Well, I hd no idea that the perception IO gave a tohit buff. Thanks for that tidbit. That was exactly the kind of thing that I was looking for. I'll be sure to have it on my stalker. Got any idea how much the tohit buff on it is?
Is there someplace that I could figure out the PvP tohit formula and the defense numbers? I used to go by an old site by arcanaville. I have no idea if he's still playing CoH or if his forum posts are still up to date. I'm just returning to the game after being gone a year. I see that Red Tomax's site is still intact, but it doesn't have a lot of the info that I am looking for. Is this info being published somewhere?
Fallenhero, that is exactly what I was looking for. Now a couple of things:
How can I calculate the effect of diminishing returns? How did you arrive at 45% defense in PvE turning into 34% in PvP? I thought DR was a refelection of the number of buffs applied. Would that not be a variable?
THen what does 'clamp' mean in your formula? I am still trying to figure it out and perhaps I will on my own. But knowing what you mean by that may accelerate the process.
Thanks for working me through it though.
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How can I calculate the effect of diminishing returns? How did you arrive at 45% defense in PvE turning into 34% in PvP?
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There is a guide on how to calculate diminishing returns, but it doesn't provide a way to convert PvE numbers to PvP. Well, maybe it does and I just don't understand it.
I got the numbers by using inspirations. Enter your favorite place to PvP with a tray full of purples. Open your attributes monitor and display defense. Pop a purple and record the number being shown. Continue to do this for as long as you can before they stop stacking. Enter the numbers into your favorite spreadsheet and plot PvE vs PvP (you know what the PvE value of the purple is). Repeat for any other ATs you are interested in. Getting toHit info isn't as straightforward b/c toHit has never displayed properly in the combat attributes window (shows PvE base chance tohit). But I have seen a couple of folks mention that 30% is the cap....and you can pop yellows and see how the number starts to plateau (then subtract 75% to see the bonus). Damage numbers are also wonky...I don't know if the numbers are just wrong or if it is off b/c of your enhancement values.
I guess you don't have to go hardcore with the spreadsheet. It just made it easier for me to see how the toons I pvp with compare.
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THen what does 'clamp' mean in your formula? I am still trying to figure it out and perhaps I will on my own. But knowing what you mean by that may accelerate the process.
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Check out the link I provided. Clamp means that the number calculated cannot be higher than 95% or lower than 5%
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It wasn't just elusivity that was nerfed but defense as well. I'm not sure on all the numbers but since i14 went live I hit defense based toons noticibly more often.
My accuracy on each attack is about 70% and I have about 75% global accuracy but I also have targeting drone plus the perception IO for the to hit buff. Same exact build as i13 but I hit much more often.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I hd no idea that the perception IO gave a tohit buff. Thanks for that tidbit. That was exactly the kind of thing that I was looking for. I'll be sure to have it on my stalker. Got any idea how much the tohit buff on it is?
Is there someplace that I could figure out the PvP tohit formula and the defense numbers? I used to go by an old site by arcanaville. I have no idea if he's still playing CoH or if his forum posts are still up to date. I'm just returning to the game after being gone a year. I see that Red Tomax's site is still intact, but it doesn't have a lot of the info that I am looking for. Is this info being published somewhere?
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Just to clarify a couple points made by Lucky666...
Defense was not nerfed in i14, elusivity was from 30% to 10% based on player based research (that number has not been confirmed by the devs as far as I know.) Elusivity is what made defense so good in i13. In its current state its not as terrible as people are saying but defense based toons are noticeably easier to hit (they still give a good run for the money in my experience.)
The perception IO does NOT give a +tohit bonus. The only thing it does is increase your perception.
My bad about the perception IO I thought since it was part of the to hit buff set rectified recticle it gave a to hit buff.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't just elusivity that was nerfed but defense as well. I'm not sure on all the numbers but since i14 went live I hit defense based toons noticibly more often.
My accuracy on each attack is about 70% and I have about 75% global accuracy but I also have targeting drone plus the perception IO for the to hit buff. Same exact build as i13 but I hit much more often.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I hd no idea that the perception IO gave a tohit buff. Thanks for that tidbit. That was exactly the kind of thing that I was looking for. I'll be sure to have it on my stalker. Got any idea how much the tohit buff on it is?
Is there someplace that I could figure out the PvP tohit formula and the defense numbers? I used to go by an old site by arcanaville. I have no idea if he's still playing CoH or if his forum posts are still up to date. I'm just returning to the game after being gone a year. I see that Red Tomax's site is still intact, but it doesn't have a lot of the info that I am looking for. Is this info being published somewhere?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure what site you're referring to, but my guide to defense is more or less up to date except for Elusivity: paragonwiki has fairly up to date articles that incorporate my information for the layperson to calculate with. I posted the DR formulas a while ago in my Guide to Diminishing Returns and the latest version of my Damage Spreadsheet has a quick and dirty sheet for calculating DR for different attributes.
And yes, I'm still here and still playing.
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In PvP, what are one's options when fighting a softcapped toon? I'm asking this in a general context, as I would like answers applying to multiple situations. I have already figured out that I can pop yellows. I have also figured out that I can bring a radiation corruptor or some other friend to provide some debuffs. I know diminishing returns keeps the debuffing from getting sick, but a single application of radiation infection can still bring things down to a manageable level, right? Of course this would only work for ice and SD. SR is basically immune to -def anyway.
Beyond these things I have the option to take tactics. (I am a stalker, so I will not have a focused accuracy type power option as far as I know.) In any event, I really do not have room for tactics on my current build. It might be an option for build 2, which will be the PvP build.
So other than assault, inspis, and debuffing buddies, what is there for me to do? I'm a MA/WP stalker. Yeah, I know MA is not a good PvP set. But I am wondering how I can go about fighting the defense sets, most notably SR.