Interesting.
Let me just say that I'm shocked that Earth/ came in second in dps with hasten post 32.
Also, did I miss it, or did you not use hotfeet on your fire/ controller for the test? It would seem that if you didn't, that would boost dps considerably.
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting.
Let me just say that I'm shocked that Earth/ came in second in dps with hasten post 32.
Also, did I miss it, or did you not use hotfeet on your fire/ controller for the test? It would seem that if you didn't, that would boost dps considerably.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hot Feet is being used in all the Fire tests. The toggle is located on the 2nd row in my power tray, 5th from the left.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Addendum 1. Calculating Illusion's Average DPS
Having PA and no PA tests allows you to use the DPS numbers from each test to give you your overall DPS based on the percentage of time PA is available in your build.
Here are a few examples of how these numbers can be used:
Time PA is Available_______________Average Net DPS, Pre-32, No Hasten
50%____________________________16.59 DPS
66%____________________________19.30 DPS
75%____________________________20.66 DPS
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Addendum 2. Adding Secondary Effects
The DPS numbers can be modified for secondary effects. For example, Disruption Arrow from the Trick Arrow set provides a 15% debuff to a baddies damage resistance. Using Illusion again as an example, for the various PA/No PA combos, this gives us a debuff of:
Time PA is Available_______________Net DPS Adjustment, Pre-32, No Hasten
50%____________________________2.48 DPS
66%____________________________2.89 DPS
75%____________________________3.09 DPS
So with Disruption Arrow debuffing the baddie, I can expect the following damage from Illusion:
Time PA is Available_______________Average Net DPS, Pre-32, No Hasten
50%____________________________19.07 DPS
66%____________________________22.19 DPS
75%____________________________23.75 DPS
Now let's say Disruption Arrow is available only 75% of the time in my build. That means we have to adjust these values as follows:
Time PA is Available_______________Net DPS Adjustment, Pre-32, No Hasten
50%____________________________1.86 DPS
66%____________________________2.16 DPS
75%____________________________2.32 DPS
So I can expect the following average damage from Illusion if I have Disruption Arrow:
Time PA is Available_______________Average Net DPS, Pre-32, No Hasten
50%____________________________18.45 DPS
66%____________________________21.56 DPS
75%____________________________22.66 DPS
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Addendum 3. Calculating Phantom Army DPS
Phantom Army cannot be buffed. This means there are times you'll want to know what their DPS contribution to your overall total is. To calculate PA DPS, subtract the No PA damage from the PA damage. That gives you the DPS done by PA alone. Example for Pre-32, No Hasten:
24.73 (Illusion w/PA DPS)
- 8.45 (Illusion w/out PA DPS)
----------------------------------
16.28 (PA only DPS)
You can then modify this number based on the time PA is available in your build to find the average contribution of PA to your DPS:
Time PA is Available_______________PA Average DPS, Pre-32, No Hasten
50%____________________________8.14 DPS
66%____________________________10.74 DPS
75%____________________________12.21 DPS
This technique provides the only way I know of to obtain PA's DPS numbers.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Addendum 4. Adding Additional Attacks
Just as you can calculate the effect of secondaries, so too can you calculate the effects of adding attacks like Air Superiority.
With Illusion and other sets that have gaps in their attack chain this is particularly easy, just add the DPS of the new attack to the DPS that's already there.
With something that has a full attack chain, like Mind with Hasten, it'll be a bit more difficult. You'd need to A) ensure that the new attack has a DPS higher than the DPS of one of Mind's attacks, B) subtract the DPS of one of Mind's attacks that you will not be using when you use the new attack, and C) Add in the new attack's DPS.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Additional consideration for Illusion
One important aspect of Spectral Wounds, Phantom Army and Phantasm is that all three have Spectral Damage (also called "Illusory Damage"), which is Psi damage that is initially applied, but then heals back after a few seconds. See the City of Data entry of Spectral Wounds for details. In the case of Spectral Wounds, this Spectral Damage is almost 40% of the base damage, or about 20% if Spectral Wounds is fully slotted for Damage to the ED cap. At level 50, this amounts to about 20 points of damage. After 10 seconds, this extra 20 points of damage heals back.
The important thing to note is that if the foe is defeated before the heal-back, then the damage counts. Spectral Wounds is a fast attack (about 1 second) that recharges in 6 seconds. If Spectral Wounds has some recharge, either by slotting or externally from Hasten or IO set bonuses, then using two attacks, Spectral Wounds can easily stack an extra 40 points of damage as long as the foe can be defeated in 10 seconds! If the foe takes longer than 10 seconds to defeat, then the extra 40 points of Spectral Damage from Spectral Wounds will only apply from attacks in the last 10 seconds.
MagicJ's testing was against a Boss, which cannot be defeated in the 10 second time period. However, against lower level foes, where the foe can be defeated more quickly, Spectral Wounds will contribute that extra 20 or 40 points of damage to each defeated foe, resulting in a much higher DPS than shown on these charts. The faster foes can be defeated, the more Spectral Damage will add to the DPS of Illusion Controllers.
While these charts show Illusion to have a very low DPS without Phantom Army, Illusion's DPS is actually much higher against lower level foes. Illusion's low performance in the above tests only apply to the limited scenario where an Illusionist is fighting a higher level foe who cannot be defeated quickly. Against a higher level foe, the Spectral Damage will only add 40 points of additional damage from the last two attacks just before the foe dies. But against a large number of lower level foes, Spectral Damage adds 20 or 40 points of damage to EACH foe. Phantom Army and Phantasm's Decoy also do Spectral Damage, all of which can add to Illusion's DPS if the foes can be defeated quickly enough before the heal-back. The Spectral Damage gives Illusion the exact opposite of Damage-over-Time seen in many other controller sets -- higher burst damage that then heals back over time.
But to really show this in a "test," the test will need to be constructed in such a way that a number of foes can be defeated in 10 seconds. While such tests are useful to some degree, these tests do not reflect the actual gameplay experience of using a character in the wide range of events that happen in the course of missions, Task Forces, or even street hunting.
I felt that the above testing, while contributing to some understanding of the effectiveness of controllers, failed to show an important strategic benefit of Illusion. I thought that the poor DPS showing on the charts above might discourage someone from making an Illusion Controller, because it appears that the damage is very low. Since the game involves a lot of street hunting and defeating minions, Illusion actually performs much better than these tests would suggest, and is generally viewed as an excellent choice for a solo controller. There are additional factors, too, since Illusion has a gap in its attack chain that can easily be filled by another attack outside of the primary powerset. This, also, will contribute to the DPS that an Illusion controller can do. (But, MagicJ has addressed this aspect to some degree.)
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Unsubstantiated claims, like the post above, aren't supported by testing and have no place in a testing document.
As was mentioned (several times) on the Controller board, tests involving multiple enemies, including minions and LTs, will be conducted in the future. Like this test, the future tests will use the Invincible difficulty setting.
Tests involving killing white to grey con minions for street hunting "Kill X of type Y baddies" missions will never be done, as it's a trivial activity.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Why is it an unsubstantiated claim? I have an ill troller..I can confirm that killing single 'easier' targets is very fast, like Local Man states. Not that I have done any DPS calculations or anything, but he makes a fair point. And the fact you dont acknowlege it, just because you feel it does not fit in with your testing, while fair enough, doesnt make his post any less true.
Quote:
This isn't the "testing forum" it's the "Player Help > Player Guides" forum. If your guide doesn't address an issue, then I think it's fair to point it out. The poster's stated intent was to let people know that they don't need to skip over Illusion b/c your test doesn't reflect real world performance. |
Originally Posted by magicj
Unsubstantiated claims, like the post above, aren't supported by testing and have no place in a testing document.
|
I know that you mentioned that you were only testing for this specific case, but I don't think it hurts for someone to reiterate that, given that a lot of people don't read too closely, and many will just skip down to your results tables, which could lead to an uninformed decision.
Quote:
| As was mentioned (several times) on the Controller board, tests involving multiple enemies, including minions and LTs, will be conducted in the future. Like this test, the future tests will use the Invincible difficulty setting. |
Quote:
It's an unsubstaniated claim because it hasn't been tested. I have no doubts that Illusion can kill low level minions quickly. _Everything_ can kill low level minions quickly. But to determine if Illusion is substantially better at it than other sets, you need to test.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Why is it an unsubstantiated claim? I have an ill troller..I can confirm that killing single 'easier' targets is very fast, like Local Man states. Not that I have done any DPS calculations or anything, but he makes a fair point. And the fact you dont acknowlege it, just because you feel it does not fit in with your testing, while fair enough, doesnt make his post any less true.
|
It's a test that I'm not going to do because I consider it a trivial activity. But others are free to run those tests if they wish.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Quote:
Well, first of all, you shouldn't skip over or select _any_ troller based solely on damage. Trollers are about control. Even a Fire/Kin farmer depends heavily on control. Damage can play a part in selecting a troller, but it really shouldn't be the whole story.|
Originally Posted by Sureshot_Liberty
This isn't the "testing forum" it's the "Player Help > Player Guides" forum. If your guide doesn't address an issue, then I think it's fair to point it out. The poster's stated intent was to let people know that they don't need to skip over Illusion b/c your test doesn't reflect real world performance.
|
And the tests absolutely reflect real-world performance. Great care was taken to ensure that.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sureshot_Liberty
I know that you mentioned that you were only testing for this specific case, but I don't think it hurts for someone to reiterate that, given that a lot of people don't read too closely, and many will just skip down to your results tables, which could lead to an uninformed decision.
|
The explanitory information isn't caveats explaining why the tests are invalid to other situations, they explain how the tests can be expanded for accurate use in other situations.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
What part of the claim needs "testing"? That illusion gets front-loaded damage which fades over longer fights? That this would have more impact on weak opponents than on strong ones?
Quote:
The problem with your testing criteria is that killing minions and lieutenants is NOT a trivial activity in the game. Minions and lieutenants make up the vast majority of the foes you deal with. Your testing was designed to ignore one of Illusion's main strengths, Illusory Damage. I consider this to be similar to testing on foes who have Fire Resistance . . . obviously, Fire Control would suffer in that case. By choosing only bosses with high hit points, your test is excluding Illusory damage and thus removing a substantial amount of Illusion's damage.|
Originally Posted by magicj
It's an unsubstaniated claim because it hasn't been tested. I have no doubts that Illusion can kill low level minions quickly. _Everything_ can kill low level minions quickly. But to determine if Illusion is substantially better at it than other sets, you need to test.
It's a test that I'm not going to do because I consider it a trivial activity. But others are free to run those tests if they wish. |
There were other problems with your testing. Your slotting for PA was 3 Recharge, 2 Damage and NO ACCURACY. Standard SO slotting would be to 6 slot it with 3 Recharge, 2 Damage, 1 Accuracy . . . but that is aimed for a very small improvement on Recharge over damage. I seem to recall someone a long time ago tested PA with different slotting, and his finding were that 2 Recharge, 3 Damage, 1 Acc was optimal for maximizing damage. On the other hand, PA are often distracted away from the boss by other foes (those trivial minions and lieutenants), so by excluding the low level foes, you are actually increasing the damage done by PA to some degree. (This is one of several reasons I recommend killing the minions and lieutenants first for Illusion controllers -- so PA will focus on the tougher foes. It is also another reason why Illusion's ability to kill them quickly is not "trivial.")
I haven't tried to do my own testing for several reasons . . . I wouldn't be able to reproduce your specific tests since I don't have access to every detail you used to create your tests. Also, frankly, I find testing to be tedious. I do enough tedious stuff at work. But just because I haven't spent hours and hours creating my own test that would allow for Illusory damage to have an effect does not mean that my criticism is invalid. I pointed out a flaw in your tests which very likely skewed the results. You refuse to acknowledge my point by calling it "trivial" even though the huge majority of the game involves killing minions and lieutenants.
And Illusion kills those low level foes much faster than most controllers. Mind and Gravity have substantial single-target damage, but their attack chains are slower. Fire and Plant are great at killing larger spawns, but take just about the same amount of time to kill small groups of 2 minion, 1 Lieutenant as a large group and have problems with ambushes. I bet that if a valid form of testing could be found for killing off minions and lieutenants, Illusion would be shown to kill those kinds of small groups much faster than the low damage controllers (Ice, Earth and Electric), and probably faster than most or maybe all of the others.
You shouldn't make a general conclusion based upon a limited test that skews the results against one of your test subjects.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
WhisperWitch's Guide to Controller Primaries Damage Vs A Single Target
Introduction
This guide provides hard numbers for the damage capabilities of all Controller primaries vs a single target. No secondaries or epics powers are used. Hasten is used in half the tests and identical tests are run without Hasten. These tests establish baseline performance from the primary that can then be modified based upon secondary and tertiary effects.
The original thread that produced what became this guide has been saved by the Devs here.
Thanks
I'd like to thank everyone who reviewed this guide and offered suggestions and encouragement. Special thanks goes to Ishtar, Zappalina, Grimlek, UnicyclePeon, Geldon, Austerity, Weatherby_Goode, Frosticus, Riverdusk, ByteBait, Negate, Chaos_String, LordnMaster, Ehina, EvilRyu, Local_Man, Obitus, BlackSly, and General_Masters, all of whom made suggestions or comments that helped make this guide much better than it would have otherwise been.
Contents
Testing Methodology
What's Not Covered By These Tests
Results
Comments On Results
Supporting Media
Testing Methodology
The tests were standardize so that the results of each Controller could be meaningfully compared and were transparent so that others may repeat the tests if they wish. Each test was recorded to video and posted to YouTube so that every step taken is known.
Testing was done for two level grades, "Pre-32" and "Level 32" using Ouroboros flashback missions. The missions were set to the Invincible difficulty level.
The "Pre-32" tests were done using the level 29 story arc "A Madman's Council" fighting the boss Archon Salvatore. The "Level 32" tests were done using the level 34 story arc "The Rise of the Vampyri" fighting the boss Archon Zane. Both bosses are Penumbra Cor Leonis villains, which were chosen because they do not have Resistance to any damage type.
All Controllers were at least level 35 so that the level 32 powers could be fully slotted.
Each of the Controller's powers used was 2 slotted for Accuracy and 3 slotted for Damage. The sole exception being Illusion's Phantom Army, where the customary 3 slots for Recharge where given, allowing only 2 slots for Damage. Single Origin Enhancements were used in all cases.
If pets were used in the test, they were summoned before the fight started. The exception to this was Illusion's Phantom Army, where it is customary to summon them as the fight begins, and Plant where two tests were made, one with the pet already out and one with the pet recast into melee range during the fight.
Illusion was tested twice within each test, once with Phantom Army, once without. This is because Phantom Army is not a permanent pet in most Illusion builds. Gravity was also tested twice within each test, once using Propel in the attack chain, and once without. This is because the use of Propel in the attack chain was somewhat controversial before these tests were done.
With all this in place, the tests consisted simply of timing how long it took each Controller to defeat the boss.
What's Not Covered By These Tests
These tests do not cover the following:
<ul type="square">[*] The effects of secondaries, power pools (except Hasten), Epics, or Vet powers.[*] The speed at which a given Controller set can kill groups.[*] The effect of Confuse powers on kill times.[*] The effect of IOs and IO bonuses.[*] Personal playstyle.[/list]Results
Test results are presented in the video Controller Primary Kill Times and DPS Vs Single Target Summary and reproduced below.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Pre-32 Times, No Hasten
Illusion w/PA_______________56s
Mind________________________59s
Gravity w/Propel____________1:06s
Fire________________________1:13s
Plant_______________________1:13s
Earth_______________________1:39s
Gravity w/out Propel________1:40s
Ice_________________________1:49s
Illusion w/out PA___________2:44s
Pre 32 Times, With Hasten
Mind________________________46s
Illusion w/PA_______________47s
Gravity w/Propel____________58s
Gravity w/out Propel________1:04s
Fire________________________1:04s
Plant_______________________1:10s
Ice_________________________1:22s
Earth_______________________1:32s
Illusion w/out PA___________1:33s
32 Times, No Hasten
Fire________________________34s
Gravity w/Propel____________46s
Plant w/Pet Recast__________48s
Illusion w/PA_______________49s
Earth_______________________49s
Gravity w/out Propel________55s
Ice_________________________58s
Plant_______________________1:00s
Mind________________________1:13s
Illusion w/out PA___________1:42s
32 Times, With Hasten
Fire________________________30s
Earth_______________________38s
Gravity w/Propel____________44s
Illusion w/PA_______________45s
Mind________________________46s
Ice_________________________47s
Plant w/Pet Recast__________47s
Gravity w/out Propel________1:00
Illusion w/out PA___________1:06s
Plant_______________________1:13s
Pre-32 DPS, No Hasten
Illusion w/PA_______________24.73 DPS
Mind________________________23.47 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________20.98 DPS
Fire________________________18.97 DPS
Plant_______________________18.97 DPS
Earth_______________________13.99 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel________13.85 DPS
Ice_________________________12.71 DPS
Illusion w/out PA____________8.45 DPS
Pre-32 DPS, With Hasten
Mind________________________30.11 DPS
Illusion w/PA_______________29.47 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________23.88 DPS
Fire________________________21.64 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel________21.64 DPS
Plant_______________________19.79 DPS
Ice_________________________16.89 DPS
Earth_______________________15.05 DPS
Illusion w/out PA___________14.89 DPS
32 DPS, No Hasten
Fire________________________51.62 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________38.15 DPS
Plant w/Pet Recast__________36.56 DPS
Earth_______________________35.82 DPS
Illusion w/PA_______________35.82 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel________31.91 DPS
Ice_________________________30.26 DPS
Plant_______________________29.25 DPS
Mind________________________24.04 DPS
Illusion w/out PA___________17.21 DPS
32 DPS, With Hasten
Fire________________________58.50 DPS
Earth_______________________46.18 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________39.89 DPS
Illusion w/PA_______________39.00 DPS
Mind________________________38.15 DPS
Ice_________________________37.34 DPS
Plant w/Pet Recast__________37.34 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel________29.25 DPS
Illusion w/out PA___________26.59 DPS
Plant_______________________24.04 DPS
</pre><hr />
Comments On Results
* Plant performs worse in the 32 Test with Hasten than in the 32 Test without Hasten. I believe this is because the Fly Trap only used its Immobilize attack in the Hasten test. The test was not redone because it was felt this could easily happen in normal combat. Re-summoning the Fly Trap in melee range will greatly increase its DPS.
* Gravity w/out Propel performs worse in the 32 Test with Hasten than in the 32 Test without Hasten. I believe this is because I was too far away from the baddie at the start of the fight. The test was not redone because it was felt this could easily happen in normal combat.
Supporting Media
Videos documenting each test as it was taken as well as showing the builds used for testing can be found here:
Damage Pre-32 Grav, Earth, Ice
Damage Pre-32 Grav, Earth, Ice With Hasten
Damage Level 32 Grav, Earth, Ice
Damage Level 32 Grav, Earth, Ice, With Hasten
Damage Pre-32 Fire, Illusion, Mind, Plant
Damage Pre-32 Fire, Illusion, Mind, Plant, With Hasten
Damage Level 32 Fire, Illusion, Mind, Plant
Damage Level 32 Fire, Illusion, Mind, and Plant With Hasten
Damage Level 32 Plant w/Pet Recast
Testing Builds for Grav, Earth, and Ice
Testing Builds for Fire, Illusion, Mind, and Plant
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage