EAT at Posi's - The status of Epic ATs (12/2008)

This guide is superseded - please go to this one for updated (and cleaned up) status - EAT at War Witch's.
-MB, 9/26/2010



This guide is a derivative of one started by Oceanborn in 4/06 here. Or perhaps just "inspired by."

A good bit has changed since he first wrote that guide. And with 11 pages, at *my* settings (50 posts per page,) there's a lot that's been discussed. (Edit 2/18/2010 - Info change with upcoming Issue 17 level changes.)

This is not a build guide to Kheldians or Soldiers of Arachnos. This is an overview of where we've been and where we're going, EAT wise.

Terminology

Yeah, boring stuff, some of this is basic, there's not a lot to worry about though.
APP - Anciliary power pool. Also called Epic power pool, with a different meaning of "Epic" than Epic ATs use.
AT - Archetype. What you are. Blaster, Defender, Corrupter, Brute, that sort of thing.
EAT - Epic Archetype. An archetype that has, from examples so far, a story and origin tied to it by default.
HEAT - Rarely used. Hero Epic Archetype.
Kheld - Short for Kheldian, the overall "race" for Peacebringers, Warshades, and (non player obtainable) Nictus.
PPP - Patron power pool. Villainside version of an APP, requires running an arc for a patron.
SOA - Soldiers of Arachnos. Bane spiders, Crab spiders, Night Widows and Fortunatas.
VEAT - If you got the above, you can guess this. Villain Epic Archetype.

First, what is an Epic AT?

This is open to a lot of interpretation, I'll be honest. Let's start with what they are not - they are NOT "God mode." In all the time I've run Kheldians, I'd seen that idea more than a few times, with people getting disappointed that they weren't clearing maps in one shot at level 1. (OK, wee bit of exaggeration there.)

"Epic," we're told, generally refers to being tied to a story. This has some pros and cons, going by the examples we have so far:

Pro - You're going to get story arcs not available to the basic Archetypes. Right off the bat, you get a special contact, and every five levels a special arc from that contact in addition to the ones you get from regular contacts.

Pro - There's usually some sort of twist to gameplay and/or building the character, some special variation that regular ATs don't experience. Kheldians have the option of "forms" to shapeshift into, and get built in travel powers. SoAs "branch" into their specialty at level 24 with a required respec.

Con - There's always some limitation. Origin, typically, with Khelds and SOAs. Khelds are locked out of the Flight and Teleportation travel pools, and don't get seperate APPs. SoAs are always Natural origin, and the first slot is taken up by their Arachnos-themed costume. (The parts are not available to the other costume slots.)

It's probably safest to look at it this way. With the regular story arcs, you get a wide overview of a lot of things. An Epic goes into detail on one specific part of the City Of world's story.

How do you start an Epic AT?

This is subject to change for future EATs, should they be released.

When Kheldians were released, you had to have a hero character (there were no villains) on the live server up to level 50, when they would unlock. Test and live are different. A level 50 villain would not unlock Kheldians.

For the sake of parity, when SoAs were finally released in Issue 12, it was decided you'd have to have a villain at level 50 to unlock them. A hero at 50, again, would not do so.

The developers have stated in the past that they felt the level 50 requirement was not the best idea. This gets debated by players, due to the potential complexity of the two "live" EAT families (SOA and Kheldian, four ATs in total.) Future EATs may be unlocked other ways - say, doing a strike force/task force, getting certain badges, or hitting specific levels.

Positron's quote

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth would they be unlocked without a 50?
Only if you could unlock Khelds without one!

[/ QUOTE ]I remember reading something that Emmert said about lvl 50 epic unlocks was a mistake, and I assume that most of the devs feel the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]We had to do it this way for the first Villain EAT... parity in unlocking the EATs across both games and all that.

Future EATs (if we dare go in that direction) will have different methods of unlocking (obviously, since the "get to 50" is already done).

[/ QUOTE ]Edit: It was recently (before this edit on 2/18/2010) announced that in Issue 17, the unlock requirements for Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos will be lowered to level 20 as opposed to level 50. Speculation is that this is due to the Praetorian content in the Going Rogue expansion. Regardless - and this level may change - you'll only need a much-easier-to-reach level 20 of the appropriate side to unlock EATs.

All right, enough of that. Now on to the specific types.


Where have we been, where are we going?

Kheldians

Back in Issue 3, Striga Isle was introduced. The Fifth Column and Council had a war. And some funky shapeshifting aliens known as Kheldians were introduced.

These aliens were tied in to some of the Council backstory, having come to continue their war against the Nictus. Instead of going into the whole backstory, I'm just going to refer you to my Kheldian backstory guide.

Status:
Peacebringers: Active on live servers.
Warshades: Active on live servers.
Nictus: Not live. Presumed cancelled in favor of SoAs.

There are three "branches" of Kheldians - Peacebringers, Warshades, and Nictus.
Peacebringers and Warshades are the heroside Kheldians, and have been around since issue 3.
Nictus have been NPCs. Initially, Nictus were supposed to be introduced (as well as "evil Peacebringers") as the initial Villainside epic. An interview of Positron even had them mention "We'll release Nictus, then we want to do Incarnates (another EAT) next."

Those plans got scrapped. Nictus were pushed aside. For all intents and purposes, they are off the table. The reason given, when I'd asked some time ago, was that the development team wanted to introduce something "more tied in with the story of the Rogue Isles." While I, and several others, would like to see the "other side" of the Kheldian war arcs, this looks like it won't come to pass.

Specifics

• Two unique contacts - one for Warshades, one for Peacebringers, though the arcs merge after a few are run.
• Tied into origin - Natural for Peacebringers, Science for Warshades.
• Optional "forms" (Nova - with flight and ranged attacks, but no defense - and Dwarf - with teleport and melee attacks, a tank form.)
• Locked out of Teleport and Flight power pools.
• No Anciliary power pools, but the primary and secondary lists are much larger than regular ATs (13 as opposed to 9 powers, plus extra powers in each form.)

Soldiers of Arachnos

For several issues after the release of City of Villains, villain players wanted (among other things) an Epic Archetype of their own, a reward for getting to 50. There was much debate back and forth about the desire (or lack thereof) of seeing Kheldians. Initially, the Nictus (see above) were due to be the first VEAT released.

That changed suddenly and the Soldiers of Arachnos burst onto the scene in Issue 12.

These are based on the same NPCs you see throughout your villainous rise - Blood Widows and Spiders, Fortunatas, Night Widows, Banes and Crab spiders. In fact, it's somewhat hard to describe this as two ATs, when you have multiple means of building them. With a (required, and free) respec at 24, you can keep your base powers, or branch into Fortunata, Widow, Bane or Crab spider - or keep going as a basic "SoA."

The two...er, four... the SoAs all share the same starting contact, and are introduced to a chain of contacts unique to SoAs as they progress, working through their 1-50 story arc. (Personal opinion, the arcs aren't as good as the Kheldian ones, but feel free to disagree. You may like them.)

Status:
All live. We know of no extra types that were cancelled.

Specifics

• Special "Branching" mechanic with required respec on training at level 24. Pick a path - Fortunata, Night Widow, Bane spider or Crab (with special backpack.)
• Costume slot 1 dedicated to an Arachnos themed costume. Cannot be copied to other slots, nor can parts be used elsewhere.
• Unique chain of contacts lead you through the story throughout the zones.
• Built in Leadership powers available
• Patron power pools available (must, like a standard AT, unlock them.)

That's the grand total of the live Epics. Now for the "Where are they?" These are other EATs that have been mentioned, and what we know of them.

Confirmed cancelled:

Avilans.

This was a winged archetype, mentioned by Statesman, back when they felt wings as an add on piece would be "too difficult." It's assumed that the "human, but hollow and lighter" skull you find in one heroside arc would have been tied into the Avilans. We have no idea what their story arc would have touched on.

Confirmed dead in IRC chat with Positron during an event.

Nictus.

The "Bad guys" of the Kheldian war story. See the Kheldian section. Cancelled in favor of Soldiers of Arachnos. (OK, I don't have a direct "They're dead, jim" from anyone, but the comments made with the SoA release strongly indicate the concept is off the shelf.

Positron interview at Boomtown
[ QUOTE ]

Boomtown: The epic villain archetypes are closely knitted to the Arachnos forces. Why did you decide to go this way instead of porting the Kheldians to a villain version?

MM: Well, doing Nictus (evil Kheldians) was the original plan, but it just felt as too easy a cop out. Villain players have sometimes felt ignored, and in my opinion giving them a rehash of a Hero AT wasn't going to do that perception any favors. Besides, we had all this great lore tied up with Arachnos, so why not let you have a crack at playing them?


[/ QUOTE ]In progress

Now, by "In progress," don't take that as meaning "Coming out in this issue +1." This is just a section for whatever's been hinted at and talked about recently. We have no progress reports, but the name isn't gathering dust.

Incarnates

This is what Statesman and Lord Recluse are defined as now - imbued with the power of the gods. They seem to be hinted at in Cimerora, as well, with the "lost sixth origin." Also, in the same (pre-SoA release) interview with Positron, he commented that after they released Nictus, "We want to work on Incarnates, we're just not sure how to work them into the story."

The Cimerora backstory, I think, seems to indicate they're working them in.

So what are they? We don't know. This might be an archetype, it might be a special origin. Speculation abounds. With any AT, but especially an "epic," they're going to have to do a delicate balancing act when it comes to powers - after all, the two we know of are supposedly two of the most powerful beings in the CO* world.

Mentioned by Statesman here. (11/13/04)
[ QUOTE ]

I'll drop a hint: the name of an upcoming Epic Archetype.

Incarnate.

Heck - I'll do another....

Coralax.

Happy Saturday!


[/ QUOTE ]They've been on the table for a long, long time. And we still don't know exactly what they'll end up being. They may not be an archetype at all, or be some sort of hybrid. But, they were initially listed as an "Epic Archetype," and so they're listed here.

Edit 4/2/2010 - Yes, with Going Rogue (tie-in issue being Issue 18) we know they'll be "end game content," giving level 50s something to do and some way to extend themselves "past 50" without the mess that would come from raising the level cap. So, what do we consider Incarnates to be now? A system as opposed to an EAT, it sounds like. We'll just have to see how this plays out.

Edit 9/26/2010 - OK. Not with Going Rogue, but the start (and lore behind) the Incarnate system starts in Issue 19, with the system expanded in following issues. Result: No longer an EAT, but a system with lore attached - an extension to current ATs.


And since it was mentioned in the quote above, we'll start the next section with the Coralax.

Status unknown
These are neither confirmed dead nor mentioned lately.

Coralax

The Coralax are probably the best developed group of any unplayable character type. They're dealt with quite heavily on the COV side, and in Issue 12, started making their appearance in the Hollows. Aside from Statesman's mention, they (and a race enslaved by them, the Virtea) have been touched on with some heroside clues for years, though not named as such.

What we know

The very first thing to do is go look at the villain group information on the main site.

[ QUOTE ]

For millennia, a godlike being as old as the cosmos itself floated free across the universe. As the fetid swamps of the Earth’s Cretaceous Period began to recede, this god Merulina crashed into the turbid waters of the expanding Atlantic.

Settling into the ocean depths, the deity conjured followers, calling forth the Coralax from the incandescent coral thriving in the warm shallows. Made from coral imbued with Merulina’s divine essence, the first Coralax were Shapers, high priests meant to lead the burgeoning Coralax civilization.


[/ QUOTE ]Read more here.

We have some idea of what their powers *might* be from looking at the City of Villains side. We don't know what type of role the player would have, if this Epic finally sees the light of day. The majority of Coralax seen villainside are Hybrids, humans mutated by the Coralax. (Captain Mako's lieutenant, Barracuda, is one of these, so they're not neccessarily pushovers.) In several of the arcs, though, we run across a Shaper (and a Cult of the Shaper,) as mentioned above - the leaders of the Coralax civilization.

Last but not least, City of Villains does have "leviathan mastery" - water (typically shark) and cold based powers - as one of its Patron pools.

We also know they do not like humans, period.

Some of the comments in the arcs (specifically by the Freakshow in the Cult arcs) are interesting, as well, mentioning how those not of the cult "do not flow." Whether this is some hint at shapeshifting or not, or just a reference to it being an underwater civilization, we don't know.

Piece of trivia - think Cimerora was the first area to have "swimmable" water? Think again. There's a small pool of clear water (it stands out among the other brackish ponds) just outside the walls of Grandville. You can dive in, swim around - and look at the Coralax taking notes.


Blood of the Black Stream

Long ago, there was a City of Heroes collectible card game. At one point, there was a contest, which had a player created character made into a card. An egyptian themed character won - and Sean Fish (aka Manticore) found it tied into an idea for an epic AT, modifying the blurb slightly, making them one of the Blood of the Black Stream.

Edit: Here's the card.

The description:
[ QUOTE ]

Ahnek Rah-Zul
Server: Protector
Archetype: Tanker
Level: 28
Origin:
5000 years ago, the Pharaoh of Egypt was besieged with attempts on his life from the Blood of the Black Stream. Even his most trusted followers were plied with offers of great wealth and lusty women for information and secrets that could be used to devise his assassination. So the Pharaoh prayed to Mighty Ra for a protector who could not be tempted or swayed by mortal vices.

Ra sent the enchanted, basalt statue Ahnek Rah-Zul to be that protector. Being enchanted and made of purest stone, the statue is practically invulnerable to physical harm and has no need of mortal trappings, therefore his loyalty to the Pharaoh is unquestionable. The Pharaoh lived out his remaining days in peace and prosperity. Upon his death the statue was entombed with him to be his guardian for all eternity.
Recently a team of famous archaeologists unearthed this ancient tomb. When the Light of Ra (sunlight) touched upon the statue, it was awakened. Ahnek Rah-Zul began to search the world for the new incarnation of the Pharaoh. Learning of the great heroes of Paragon City, the statue was naturally drawn here.

Ahnek Rah-Zul now protects all the citizens of Paragon City in the hopes that a new Pharaoh will arise here and that he may again take his rightful place as the Pharaoh’s guardian and protector.

Congratulations for winning the first Player Awarded collectible card game card due to release in March 2006. You’re getting 10 copies of Ahnek Rah-Zul Hero card, 10 copies of his signature power, and 1 City of Heroes CCG T-shirt!

Honorable mentions go to Stonewolf and Wintersblade whom will receive a City of Heroes CCG T-Shirt.

Thank you to all of you who participated in our first City of Heroes CCG contest. Check here in the future for other great events!


[/ QUOTE ]In any case, the Blood of the Black Stream has been kicked around a bit. We do know bits and pieces about them. They're supposed to be shapeshifters. They're based in Egypt. They're touched on, primarily in Mr. Bocor's arc, as being involved in Gadzul Oil. And they seem to have a techno/magic mix going on, as one of their projects (link needed) involved building a world-sized computer, tapping into ley lines and other places of energy... one of which is visible if you fly above the tanker in Port Oakes. (The Eye of Horus-shaped oil spill.)

Edit: 5/11/2010

Redname comment! No promises or "this is coming," but a look at why we haven't seen BotBS, certainly (plus a touch of opinion

Keep pestering, oh powers man.

So where does that leave us?

A little more informed, perhaps.

None of these, to my knowledge, are confirmed specific to one side or the other. Most seem like they'd work for both, or even a "third, unaligned" faction. (For instance, I tend to see the BotBS similar to the Midnighters - standing apart from the whole 'good vs evil' for their own ends. Coralax could be hostile to both. Incarnates work on both sides.)

Hopefully as I run across links and quotes I'll be able to add them to this.

Thanks to Oceanborn for the original guide.

EAT status as of 4/2/2010
With the introduction of War Witch as the new lead dev and Going Rogue due later this year, we're getting interviews and pieces of info. Including this:

Now, this makes sense, and ties up where we were back when Posi was doing some work on COV, initially planning on bringing Nictus over to redside (we did, of course, get VEATs instead.) He had, at the time, stated that they wanted to do Incarnates later - and now we know, far from being an EAT of their own, the Incarnate system is meant to extend Level 50s. (They may well have a storyline of their own, but at this point you'll still be, say, a Tanker - just with Incarnate levels.)

So, depending on if we can consider Incarnates to be EATs of their own (not being an *archetype* of their own any more, versus an end game system, I'd wager 'no' is a safe bet,) we can generally say that there aren't any others coming on the moment. Whether that means all of them have met the fate of the Avilians (dead and gone) or they're just shelved paper ideas, we don't know.

Edit: Updated 2/18/2010 with unlock level change announcement. No further changes for future or current EATs is known at this time.
Edit: Updated 4/2/2010 with comment from interview.

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Probably want to link to the wiki page.

In Cim they specifically call out Imperious an Incarnate, and the giant robots were specifically intended to be powered by Incarnates. Reichsman is almost certainly also one, as is Tyrant, as would be any other theoretical alternate universe Statesman/Recluse variants. But as far as I know, there is only in-game text referring to States, Recluse, and Imperious. Still, we "know of" three.

Trapdoor and Stheno are listed on the wiki's incarnate page but that's making the leap that all beings who drink from the Well and gain powers are incarnates. If you rank all of the maybes there's seven. Though I think the Miss/Lady Liberty thing is really stretching it. But that's just my opinion.

On the what is it, we know States and Recluse have deities imbuing them with power thus the name can be said to be a reference to a god incarnated inside the body of the NPC.

They'll be allowed to side switch, but not start in Praetoria.

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Not really. Just because a Kheldian is a criminal or villain does not make them a nictus. Not only are Warshades Nictus gone good, but more specifically they have rejected Arakhn/Requiem and the whole Drain the life out of whole galaxies Schtick. You can do that and serve Arachnos with no hesitation. Per the stories (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) A nictus dominates the host completely, whereas the Warshade is a new being with components of both the kheldian and the human, just like a peacebringer is.

Specifically in the intro missions as I recall Sunfire talks about peacebringers not being mere joinings or mergings of two beings but a new third thing created out of the two. A nictus is not that. So just joining up with arachnos doesn't make a warshade back into a nictus, though you could take that route with yours if you wanted to.

Meh, every organization has the potential for redemption. And if you had the pack and the training, why the hell give it up, that's very potent gear. A soldier redeeming themself and becoming a hero is perfectly fitting. Probably as rare as a drug dealer cleaning up and going into security, but nothing at all wrong with that story line to me.