Protection comparison -FF, Sonic, Cold and Thermal
By
dahk99,
Posted on: 2008-06-10 06:52 in Player Guides
you forgot to add the protection from holds, stuns, and immobilizes to force field's totals.
Wow. That actually makes FF look pretty sweet, don't it? a lot better than ice's defenses.
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you forgot to add the protection from holds, stuns, and immobilizes to force field's totals.
Wow. That actually makes FF look pretty sweet, don't it? a lot better than ice's defenses.
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Until you factor in Benumb, Snow Storm, Infrigidate, Heat Loss, Sleet, Arctic Fog, and Frostworks. Cold as an entire set completely beats out Forcefields by a large margin.
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Why does everything say "except psionic"? Force fields offer defense to all positional types, and most psionic attacks except some in Mind Control are positional. Same for cold. Sonic is the only one with a huge psionic hole.
Force Fields offer the best protection out of the various options. This really shouldn't be a surprise since that's largely all FF does... heavy duty defense and knockback. In many hands it's a one-trick pony. But a REALLY good trick.
Given all of cold's and sonic's buffs and debuffs FF really HAS to offer better protection.
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Why does everything say "except psionic"? Force fields offer defense to all positional types, and most psionic attacks except some in Mind Control are positional. Same for cold. Sonic is the only one with a huge psionic hole.
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Because an attack that has multiple tags is compared to the highest one applicable. So an incoming attack that is tagged as a (positional; Psionic) attack would be compared to the higher postional bonus. Some attacks, like you said, in Mind Control (actually all of them), are only tagged as (Psionic), so the positional bonus wouldn't apply.
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Force Fields offer the best protection out of the various options. This really shouldn't be a surprise since that's largely all FF does... heavy duty defense and knockback. In many hands it's a one-trick pony. But a REALLY good trick.
Given all of cold's and sonic's buffs and debuffs FF really HAS to offer better protection.
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This may be true, but look at what else Sonic has to offer against a Psychic opponent. It's true, Sonic does have a huge psychic hole, but we also know that FF only has a +15.6% DEF against Psionic only attacks (which is every attack from Mind Control). Against a Controller-type baddie, those mezzes may have a slightly harder time landing, but once they do, there's not much a FF can do about it (although their bubble provides RES against holds immobs and disorient).
Sonic has that. It also has Clarity which gives additional hold, immob, and disorient res, plus res vs sleep, fear, and confuse, and +perception.
Putting Psionics aside, comparing FF and Sonic is like comparing apples and oranges. They both offer protection, but in different ways. FF's +DEF helps prevent an attack from landing, but if it does, the victim takes the full brunt of it. Sonic does nothing to help prevent a hit from landing, but makes the attack inflict 54.6% less damage (Sonic Barrier/Haven and Sonic Dispersion).
Getting into numbers with Cold just isn't necessary. It grants +DEF which makes hits harder to land. Adds extra HP (Frostwork), which makes it necessary to either inflict more hits or do more damage. Reduces the amount of damage (Benumb) which forces the opponent to inflict more hits. Finally, Cold has so many -Slow effects that all those hits that have to land are happening less often. When they do happen, 31.3% of the time, they miss.
~Infinity~ Aeva Tarr
~Pinnacle~ Velvet Misery
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Any positional defenses should be included in the chart.
Any debuffs of ice should be excluded in a straight Def/Res comparison, otherwise, if you include debuffs, then add Dark Miasma to the chart because with all of Dark's debuffs, you just might have a defense winner there. 
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Any debuffs of ice should be excluded in a straight Def/Res comparison, otherwise, if you include debuffs, then add Dark Miasma to the chart because with all of Dark's debuffs, you just might have a defense winner there.
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You made me curious!
I only tossed in Cold's debuffs since FF doesn't have any and Sonic's are -Dam Res, but my namesake's a Dark Def so I checked out Dark's protection with debuffs, specifically +Def and -Tohit, vs FF. All info via Mid's.
Twilight Grasp:
Tohit -9.75%
Darkest Night:
Tohit -29.3%
Shadowfall:
+Def 7.8%
(It has Dam Res also, but I'm leaving it out for the comparison)
Fearsome Stare:
Tohit -29.3%
Totals
+Def 7.8%
Tohit -68.35%
That's an effective Defense of 76.15%, not including the pet.
The one thing that hurts this is all those numbers are based on 3 SO's for +Def or -Tohit. Twilight Grasp and Fearsome Stare might be more effective with different slotting, but regardless, the numbers are still impressive.
~Infinity~ Aeva Tarr
~Pinnacle~ Velvet Misery
~Exalted (VIP)~ Maiden America/Maiden Praetoria
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Of course, the problem with Dark's uber -ACC is that it's resisted...
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You'll only find ToHit Debuff resistance when fighting AVs or when fighting people with FA in PVP. So in general play, you're pretty set with Dark. Now, if you DO happen to be fighting an AV or someone with FA, your numbers drop to around 28.31% as a Dark.
Now, factor in the damage debuff...-37.5% DamBuff. Now, if you can find something with DamBuff Resistance, let me know, but for my quick search, nothing has it. That's, in essence, pseudo resists on your character which can be used in conjunction with Shadowfall. Granted, anything that has +DamBuff, a la, Veng'd Nems or a group with LB Officers will feel this impact less, it's still an impact nonetheless. Now when you actually USE Fearsome Stare (as well as Dark Pit), you're also getting added mitigation through control. Now the enemies roll tohit checks less often, when they do, tohit debuffs and defense will reduce their chance to hit, and IF they do hit, Shadow Fall and Darkest Night will reduce the damage received. Honestly? Oh yeah....Don't forget that Auto-Hit AoE Stun and your Pet. They help, too.
Now I LOVE me a good Cold...but I'd still take a Dark if I had a choice.
hmm, great numbers to check, great way to argue in Dark also..... one problem. Debuffing is pro-active, while the buffs discussed here are really passive. Debuffing requires a player to engage ahead to acquire those effects, till then they're useless, good many of the powers have an accuracy check, so they wont always hit. Also, you cant expect all the mobs to always be within your debuffing area/attack. This is why passive buffs stand out. Im not saying the dark's -acc debuffing is useless, in theory it looks really great, but in application its a different story....
Number-wise, Cold doesnt seem to be too far off from Forcefields. FF's got a moderate mez protection bubble which gives it a noticeable edge, protection-wise. The de-toggling change has made it less of a factor. Considering that whether a player is caught in a mez or not, at least they're not detoggled and even more vulnerable. And they're STILL being protected by teh FF/Cold shields, so they are safe to recover anyhow.
As Turbo Ski said, Cold smokes FF with the debuffs and other "Damage mitigating" powers it has. FF has damage mitigation powers too, but are largely situational, and dependent on the player's style. IMHO, to be more balanced w/ Cold, FF needs to have a Defense increase at least...
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I only tossed in Cold's debuffs since FF doesn't have any
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I consider knockback to be a debuff. Let me rephrase that, I consider knockback to be a 4-6 second HOLD, as the enemies can't attack.
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FF has damage mitigation powers too, but are largely situational
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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... sure. 
In before FF vs. Cold
OH SHI TOO LATE
[censored].
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I only tossed in Cold's debuffs since FF doesn't have any
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I consider knockback to be a debuff. Let me rephrase that, I consider knockback to be a 4-6 second HOLD, as the enemies can't attack.
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I don't want to start a debate again that happened 9 months ago (I hate necroposting). However, Knockback is more like Fear since it doesn't shutdown toggles like holds, sleeps, and stuns do for npcs. However it's worse than fear since it requires you to chase down foes after its use making it consisting outrange your short to mid range attacks.
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However it's worse than fear since it requires you to chase down foes after its use making it consisting outrange your short to mid range attacks.
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Wow, you never really HAVE used knockback on anything but a melee toon, have you? I've NEVER been unable to finish a mob because they were knocked "too far back", my powers could ALWAYS reach, all of them. If your experiences have been somehow to the contrary, then UR DOIN IT RONG!
The comment about it being more like Fear is accurate, however.
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However it's worse than fear since it requires you to chase down foes after its use making it consisting outrange your short to mid range attacks.
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Wow, you never really HAVE used knockback on anything but a melee toon, have you? I've NEVER been unable to finish a mob because they were knocked "too far back", my powers could ALWAYS reach, all of them. If your experiences have been somehow to the contrary, then UR DOIN IT RONG!
The comment about it being more like Fear is accurate, however.
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Okay, I'll concede that but raise you that you're doing it to your melee teammates.
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Okay, I'll concede that but raise you that you're doing it to your melee teammates.
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I don't do that to my melee partners. I don't knock back anything I can't kill unless I think they're going to die. If you knock back your melee ally's target, UR DOING IT RONG!
I even say as much in my guide. I'm sorry that you've teamed with so many that are apparently horrible at using knockback Turbo. It must have left a bad taste in your mouth.
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Totals
+Def 7.8%
Tohit -68.35%
That's an effective Defense of 76.15%, not including the pet.
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It's an effective defense on everything that's debuffed. It's zero against everything else.
Whereas sets like FF and Sonic offer effective Defense/Resistance against everything. Even when new spawn come along. No anchors to get killed or move away from the main group. Even when the FFer/Sonic dies the team still gets some protection (of course, FFers never die, but we're speaking hypothetically here ).
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
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Okay, I'll concede that but raise you that you're doing it to your melee teammates.
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Like PK said, you don't do it to melee toons. Melee types can usually handle themselves just fine.
In rare cases where they get in trouble, it's usually not hard to Knockback an NPC into a nearby wall rather than down the hallway. You lose some benefit of Knockback that way, the NPC using ranged attacks, the NPC spending time running back to you instead of attacking. But you still get the pause in the NPC attack while he's getting back up. And that's all a melee teammate usually needs.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
To the OP:
Nice guide. But could be made better by the inclusion of Controllers, Masterminds, and Corruptors.
Also, if you're comparing Defense/Resistance buffing abilities, there's no reason not to include Emps (Fort), Storms (Steamy Mists), Darks (Shadow Fall), and Kins (Increase Density).
Providing Mag numbers for the mez protectin would also be a nice touch.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
The following is a comparison of the the protection offered from these 3 defender primaries (plus a hypothetical Thermal Defender, since that may be coming soon). The information is from Mids, and I used only SO's for simplicity.
This is also a repost of a thread I made in the Defender forum to gets some initial feedback on this:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post10936037
I also threw all this info into a google spreadsheet:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...uLCQ&hl=en
[u]Force field Defender[u]
[u]Personal Force Field[u]
Defense (Self)
75% to all
117% with 3 Defense buff SO's
Resistance
40% to everything except toxic
[u]Deflection Shield[u]
15% defense to smashing, lethal and melee
23.4% with 3 defense SO's
40% resistance to toxic
[u]Insulation Shield[u]
15% defense to energy, negative, fire, cold, ranged, and AoE
23.4% with 3 defense SO's
86.5% resistance to endurance drain effects
[u]Dispersion Bubble[u]
10% defense against everything
15.6% with 3 defense SO's
Protection from hold, immob, and stun
[u]Totals[u]
Protection with Deflection and Insulation Shields and Dispersion Bubble (slotting with SO's):
Defense
25% (39%) against all except psionic
10% (15.6%) against toxic
Resistance
40% to toxic
86.5% to endurance drain
Protection from holds, stuns, and immob
[u]Sonic Resonance Defender[u]
[u]Sonic Barrier[u]
20% (31.2%) resistance to smashing, lethal, and toxic
[u]Sonic Haven[u]
20% (31.2%) resistance to energy, negative, fire and cold
[u]Sonic Dispersion[u]
15% (23.4%) resistance to all except psionic
Protection from hold, immob, and stun
[u]Totals[u]
Protection with Sonic Barrier, Sonic Haven and Sonic Dispersion
35% (54.6%) resistance to all except psionic
Protection from hold, immob, and stun
[u]Cold Defender[u]
[u]Ice Shield[u]
15% (23.5%) defense to smashing, lethal and melee
10% (15.6%) resistance to fire
12.5% (19.5%) resistance to cold
[u]Glacial Shield[u]
15% (23.5%) defense to energy, negative, ranged, and AoE
12.5% (19.5%) resistance to cold
[u]Arctic Fog[u]
5% (7.8%) defense to melee, ranged and AoE
20% (31.2%) resistance to fire, cold and energy
[u]Totals[u]
Protection with Ice Shield, Glacial Shield and Arctic Fog
20% (31.3%) defense to all except psionic, fire and cold
30% (46.8%) resistance to fire
45% (70.2%) resistance to cold
20% (31.2%) resistance to energy
[u]Hypothetical Thermal Defender[u]
[u]Fire Shield[u]
20% (31.2%) resistance to smashing, lethal, fire
10% (15.6%) resistance to cold
[u]Plasma Shield[u]
20% (31.2%) resistance to Energy, Negative, and fire
[u]Thaw[u]
Resistance to stun, immob, conf, sleep, hold and fear
10% (15.6%) resistance to cold
[u]Totals[u]
Protection with Fire and Plasman Shield
40% (61.4%) resistance to fire
20% (31.2%) resistance to smashing, lethal, energy and negative
10% (15.6%) resistance to cold