Hey Im just giving you grief Devious.. good to see your thoughts (as well as everyone elses)
I just assumed that people will just keep going until their system breaks down and their nation/world withers to nothin'....Sorry would babble more but not thinking all that well...
The question lacks context. What will happen when? Are we presupposing some sort of hidden purpose for humanity which will eventually be reached? Is that why the question is phrased like it is? Are we assuming that there will be one "thing" that will happen?
Is the question "what part will humanity play in the future of the universe as we know it?" Is the question "what will be the next big thing to happen?" Is the question tied to the end of humanity? Is it "what's going to take humans out?"
I mean, the ravings of a self important madman seem as poignant and purposeful as a top tier lecture on astrophysics if you don't have context.
What exactly, gentlemen, are we discussing?
This:
[ QUOTE ]
Long story short, referring only to a local context, and holding all outside variables to be constant for the duration, what do you think should be done with humanity?
Basically, do you think humans can achieve equilibrium with their environment again? Or would everything just be better off without them? Better yet, is there another option? Could this behavior be a part of some greater plan? What do you think?
[/ QUOTE ]
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
Well, Devious, I wasn't specifically referring to your question, rather the discussion. Your question also lacks context.
What does humans living in "equilibrium" with their environment have to do with their worth in the universe? And obviously "everything" wouldn't be better off without them, humans and human made systems would fail. Since we're the pinnacle of evolution (god help us all), I think that if there is anything involving a higher plan, we're its only chance. Is there another option to what, living in a state of equilibrium? Not having humans? The behavior is obviously motivated by greater forces than men, though from an origin far smaller than most would look to for a "god" influence.
There can be no "greater plan", because nothing in this universe matters. Nothing in this universe connects to something outside this universe, therefore the entire effect of any cause will be contained in this universe. Thus, there cannot be any meaning beyond the effects we suffer here in this universe. So, while building a skylight might invite aliens onto your breakfast nook, the highest "plan" you're going to run into is essentially going to be "man made".
Aside from the deranged few of us who claim not to be human, we haven't encountered any intelligence in the universe outside of humanity that's anywhere comparable in capacity. What should be done with humans? Educate them.
This is the greatest probe ever built, and given time it will get eyes on the entire universe.
Oh, I get ya now. Negative, I didn't connect that far, so actually I'm not sure either. But unless I've got the meaning of context mixed up, I've specifically outlined it twice by now: purely local, with all external variables held constant for the duration.
As for what living in equilibrium with one's environment and relative worth in the universe have to do with one another...I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. 
And fine, I made a generalization. Let me rephrase it into "the broad spectrum of living beings currently interacting with humanity within a local context as defined by the ability to be encompassed within human sensory perception, the sum of which not necessarily being 100%."
But I suppose you did answer my question in the end there: education. Now, that's all well and good, but what sort? How does one go about educating away greed, hatred, dispassion, et cetera, within the aforementioned local context? No, really, that's a question - I seriously have no idea.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
Context of a question needs to be outlined thusly. "Does humanity do more good or harm to life in the universe, in general?" See, there you have context. When you just say "a local context", you're not picking a context or outlying one. How can I tell you if something is generally good or bad if you dont tell me what "good" or "bad" are? That's what I meant by context for the question. Not region.
You asked what should be done with humanity. You then followed that with "basically, do you think humans can achieve equilibrium with their environment again?" First off, this is wholly incorrect thinking. We, as humans, applied a standard of "giving no more than you take" as equilibrium and therefore some sort of "natural state" humanity fails to achieve. We're by far not the only species on the planet (multi-celled and everything) that takes more than it gives back. Truth be told, because resources are so scarce for other animals, there are few that wouldn't over eat given the opportunity. If goats had evolved to human like status, we may very well be dealing with a world without anything green left. I digress. You followed one question with the other hard upon it, suggesting that they're related. The worth of humanity seems to be contextually tied to their ability to reach an equilibrium with their environment, a goal I don't see us having as humans.
I think we want more than our fair share. I think that, since no other species on the planet has attended ANY of the meetings as to what is to be done with these resources, they can go pound sand. We posted the signs clearly and no one from any other species has shown up to say "hold on a minute", or perhaps if they don't speak English "einna minuten bitta".
As to your excessively wordy definition, if we don't have any reason to believe that there's anyone participating in this conversation who is not human, or who is privy to a perception not originating from humanity, we may as well not include the other X%.
How do we educate people on a mass scale? Time. We let them do all the things that are wrong, until they're all "wronged out", essentially. We let them drink too much, fornicate too much, do too many drugs, sell themselves, harvest their organs and essentially make every mistake until it's made to death. Until it's no longer fashionable. Until there's no more "well maybe it will be different for me if I smoke crack", no, if you smoke crack you'll lose your house and your teeth too.
Anything else would require an incredible amount of force and the knowledge that those setting the criteria had the ONE TRUE way of doing things. Few are arrogant enough to believe that they possess this formula.
Oh, okay. My bad, I thought the nature of equilibrium with one's environment was common knowledge. Yeah, I can see how that didn't have context then.
And I'm sorry, but I still don't see how you got a measure of worth from those questions. Yes, they are related, but not in that manner. The second was only an elaboration of the first, in that if humanity was left completely to its own devices, would it reestablish equilibrium? Like the other starters, it served only to expand on the original question.
In other words, at least in my opinion, the worth of humanity is not contextually tied to their ability to reach equilibrium with their environment. Frankly, I don't think there is any scale of worth to begin with.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
So you're saying that, given humanity has no worth, what should be done with it? The answer to that seems to be easy, get rid of it.
Unfortunately that's not an answer humanity is very good at following. There have been several attempts. Some partial successes too!
No, I am saying that I do not have a scale of relative worth, and therefore I cannot measure the worth of humanity as compared to other living beings.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
It was more of a question on what is your point of view on the topic given your experience and the things you perceive more than a "here's a cookie, now eat it!" situation.
And a few of the points that have been made so far seem to take some assumptions...
Like the comment " We, as humans, applied a standard of "giving no more than you take" as equilibrium and therefore some sort of "natural state" humanity fails to achieve. We're by far not the only species on the planet (multi-celled and everything) that takes more than it gives back. Truth be told, because resources are so scarce for other animals, there are few that wouldn't over eat given the opportunity."
As that comment kinda glazes over the reason for those resources being scarce, namely being humans and their wacky antics with species displacement, environmental destruction, movement of species to non-indigenous territories, so on and so forth...
Not meaning to point anything out in particular, it's just a thing to note that one should check what they are typing for anything that may be making assumptions or skipping over things that the writer might just assume as common knowledge.
The issue being, most things are highly dependent on the individuals point of view, and no one experiences the exact same thing to learn what they know. I'm not advocating spelling out all the inane details like you're trying to teach physics to a toddler, but rather just think over what ya got and try to consider it from another person's point of view, as if you don't already know everything that makes up your thought.
Some among humanity feel we have a destiny. Most can't see past their next paycheck. Many still can't see their next meal.
We can't even come to equilibrium with ourselves. We never have. Even with the knowledge at our fingertips, many still refuse to even look at or utilize it.
For instance, Evolution is considered the antithesis to Creationism rather than the process of it, by both practitioners of Science and Judeo-Christian faiths. This is a non-issue (in that, whether right or wrong, it doesn't really change ANYTHING in any practical way) that was long-before resolved by Nature and God (if such a thing, in any concept or use of the word, exists), and yet this is a major point of contention long after it was even conceived. Nobody looks outside their respective texts for inspiration or even to humor the possibility that they may be wrong.
In any case, I think mankind is waiting for a major catalytic (or perhaps cataclysmic) event to spur them on a better (or worse) path. Otherwise, we seem content to stay locked in the same cycle we've always locked ourselves in.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
[ QUOTE ]
Some among humanity feel we have a destiny. Most can't see past their next paycheck. Many still can't see their next meal.
We can't even come to equilibrium with ourselves. We never have. Even with the knowledge at our fingertips, many still refuse to even look at or utilize it.
For instance, Evolution is considered the antithesis to Creationism rather than the process of it, by both practitioners of Science and Judeo-Christian faiths. This is a non-issue (in that, whether right or wrong, it doesn't really change ANYTHING in any practical way) that was long-before resolved by Nature and God (if such a thing, in any concept or use of the word, exists), and yet this is a major point of contention long after it was even conceived. Nobody looks outside their respective texts for inspiration or even to humor the possibility that they may be wrong.
In any case, I think mankind is waiting for a major catalytic (or perhaps cataclysmic) event to spur them on a better (or worse) path. Otherwise, we seem content to stay locked in the same cycle we've always locked ourselves in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its the ebb and flow of our Being Mr. Grey, and although it sometimes seems like we get caught making the same mistakes over and over (which we do at times) Truth be told that we have had (and continue to have) those "moments of pure glory" where our essense shows itself off in the best of ways. I'll give you an example: Decades and decades had passed in this country (USA) where the abolisment of slavery didnt make the Black man and woman any more accepted. Racism was rampant. Then a woman in Montgomery, Alabama was too tired and decided she was not going to go sit at the back of that bus.. and it fueled a fire and movement that remains full flegded to this day.
In California, a fed up field worker told his fellow workers to sit and strike until they got treated fairly, and now, Hispanics and Latinos in the USA are becoming the most powerful minority movement since the days of Rosa Parks and Dr. King.
These things have consequences and affects. We sometimes cant see them in those short moments of day to day life.. sometimes they arent even seen for felt for generations.. but they have an effect.
As an Old History teacher and activist in the political realm, I can tell you from what I have observed and witnessed up to this point in my life, that indeed, those parts that are played by us as humans (yes Im waxing Shakespearian here) can be something of incredibly powerful and profound moments.
It is up to us, I believe, to learn and grow from those moments and keep pushing that envelope on where we go from here as a species and people.
I agree with you, Masonic, on the profound changes which have been occurring in our world at a relatively breakneck pace (with all of history considered; indeed, sometimes so fast that it takes humanity as a whole a chaotic moment to process it), and that they have had a tremendous impact on our world, but that doesn't change my point. Each and every one of those moments has required some form of moment, some kind of inspiration, someone telling the masses that it was okay to stand up and fight for their equality... or for anything.
I'm not going to argue that racism and bigotry are still rampant. There's enough evidence and debate on that elsewhere, and it's an issue outside the scope of this thread at the moment. Here, it doesn't really have a place. We can't see one another's faces, and the most we can judge each other on are the few ideas we present to this forum.
However, I still stand firm that we need something to inspire us to make a new future for ourselves, and not just grind this planet into dust. Once, there was a time we could have turned to faith, but that has become so mired in politics that it only really works in local situations (and sometimes not even then). Perhaps in another generation or so we'll have an answer.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you, Masonic, on the profound changes which have been occurring in our world at a relatively breakneck pace (with all of history considered; indeed, sometimes so fast that it takes humanity as a whole a chaotic moment to process it), and that they have had a tremendous impact on our world, but that doesn't change my point. Each and every one of those moments has required some form of moment, some kind of inspiration, someone telling the masses that it was okay to stand up and fight for their equality... or for anything.
I'm not going to argue that racism and bigotry are still rampant. There's enough evidence and debate on that elsewhere, and it's an issue outside the scope of this thread at the moment. Here, it doesn't really have a place. We can't see one another's faces, and the most we can judge each other on are the few ideas we present to this forum.
However, I still stand firm that we need something to inspire us to make a new future for ourselves, and not just grind this planet into dust. Once, there was a time we could have turned to faith, but that has become so mired in politics that it only really works in local situations (and sometimes not even then). Perhaps in another generation or so we'll have an answer.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you about how at times we human beings need prodding.. I think that is just part of our nature. And yes, I also agree with you about the faith issue.. it is more that humans are a complex species, far more complex than sometimes we realize we are. We want that paradox: Security and Pushing the Envelope at the same time.. in essense, we want our cake and eat it too.. nothing pariticularly wrong with that but it is something we have to take into account.
As for the racism issue, I am not trying to bring out that aspect whatsoever, I just used it as an example that highlighted my argument.
Religion? Hmm, I hadn't even considered that yet. Now there's an idea.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
[ QUOTE ]
For example, you can go 2+2=4, there is no way to have 2+2=5. No one would agree that it's a possibility as you are magically pulling something out of nowhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, but you are assuming that holds true for every conceivable dimension.
How do you know that in the alternate past my main character hails from 2+2 doesn't equal 5? (Actually, it equals 7, but I haven't written that chapter yet, so it's a moot point.)
For that matter, where does Eschatological Panthiestic Multiple-Ego Solipsism fit into a "fundamental universe"?
We've been over and over that point Charlie. I'm not entirely sure what we eventually settled on, but we've moved past the issue. Welcome to the debate, though.
Now, for those of us who don't wish to spend a few hours clicking with fascination in Wikipedia, would you please provide a quick synopsis of what Eschatological Patheistic Multiple-Ego Solopsism is?
Please tell me you're not just stringing 10-dollar words together. With a name like that, it has to be interesting!
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
You know you've been playing too much Bioshock when you start using the phrase, '10-dollar words.' 
I take the inspiration where I get it. The source isn't necessarily that important, the phrase and its use is.
Ugh, now if only I could find the inspiration to write the real Kingdale story that's rattling around in my head.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
It's actually quite simple.
Say an author writes a story or book. Somewhere in the vast multitude of dimensions, the world(s) the author writes about, the characters, situations, etc, become reality. Also, it can be explained as, when someone writes a story or book, they're not using their imagination, but "listening in" on an alternative dimension where the story IS reality.
So basically, under Eschatological Panthiestic Multiple-Ego Solipsism, Paragon City DOES exist, somewhere.
Well, that is interesting.
If such a thing were true, however, what does that say about us as gods, or of the metaphysical caretakers of those dimensions? Heroes go through some terrible strife, whether they're in dramas or action roles. Most fictional literature puts people through some very intense problems that they have to overcome.
If our writing makes us gods, then we are terrible caretakers of our worlds. If we're merely glimpsing into their lives, should we pity the subjects of our observations?
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Eh, it went on in PMs for a bit, but I was ultimately unable to convince Averick of relatively dependant relations. We basically settled for agreeing that we disagree.
As for that term, that's quite specific...I just always filed that under the Twin Reflection Theorem - basically the same as a causality loop in time, but applied to the standard principles of observer and observed.
Now, as to Grey's question, let's not forget that the theoretical glimpse we would be taking is just that: a glimpse. While a terrible drama may certainly take place in said glimpse, there'd certainly be more going on while we're not writing. In other words, just because the guy you're writing about has some intense problems in need of surmounting doesn't mean he has to do that all his life.
I mean, I've got some pretty heavy junk to deal with at times, but you know for a fact I don't do so with all of my time (else I wouldn't have time to post here), nor do I let said problems keep me from leading a rather enjoyable life. Hell, I don't want my life to be any other way. I like being me, being where I am, doing what I do, and I wouldn't trade it for anything I can presently imagine.
Are there times where I don't feel this way? Of course there are. Life is life, and it's filled with pain and misery and loss and all sorts of other nasty stuff, but there's also a positive side to it - and since I am a firm believer in a cosmic balance, I believe this exists everywhere - so while the rough spots may be warrant of empathy, I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to pity me just because I've hit a snag.
Life's not about never falling, it's about getting back up again after you've hit the ground. Falling happens, and all over the place, and I wouldn't pity anyone for it.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
By George, I do believe Devious has it!
You are the first person that I have discussed this with that saw outside of the "But bad things always happen to the hero!" paradox.
Good. Glad I'm provoking some actual reactions.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters