I have a hard time seeing most concepts of faith as little more than an ongoing appeal to something greater, which kinda makes sense from my point of view.
People within society like the reliance upon others. FIrst they find they rely upon their parents for everything. Slowly they move and grow to rely on others to teach them and to learn from their peers. Once you're an adult however you are told to think for yourself and stuck in an odd situation of "What am I gonna do?".
That seems reaffirmed in the way many things are worded as guiding, individuals being lost or found, discovering purpose, how to lead a good life. It's all an appeal to a new "parent" figure that we feel we may have somehow lost.
It also can easily be extended that this parent figure is used then as justification to understandings of things that we have no logical explanation for. We used to have no clue what was beyond the sea, and it used to be written that is was a sea of fire and monsters up until people got the balls to venture of and say "Where's the bloody sea monsters?!". Each time we have discovered something new we have gone back and revised the scriptures as it has been accepted. I just find it odd that they could concede that the world isn't flat nor the center of the universe and that the ocean didn't end in a sea of fire and monsters, but they still can't accept the idea of evolution. Maybe too much revising would be in order if they did?
Not to nitpick a single religion so much, just happens to be the only one I know alot about...but all this is still easily applicable to many other religions and as far as I know all major forms of beleif.
The things that stand out for me tends to be that even if there is something that says what one should or shouldn't do, or even if it's directly controlling what we do, that really doesn't change the fact that any range of things still happens.
Someone murders and is brought to court, they say they aren't accountable for their actions as it was a divine order....Well the judge just counters with his own divine order, being a prison or death sentence. If it's this way, then we really couldn't say we are fulfilling anything as we are simply there and doing things as we are told to do. The ultimate goal will be no reward that would benefit us, as we are simple puppets.
If we are free agents then even one should note, it doesn't matter wether or not there's morally right and wrong things to do or not. People will make the decisions they think is best given their particular train of thoughts and feelings, and no amount of divine command saying they shouldn't do that can really sway it. Guess that's why there's an idea of an afterlife that people hope they can get in somethings good grace for. But it's a contradictory situation when people do good to have a god after life as all their good actions belie personal desires.
I'm somewhat inclined towards the biological approach that morals is kinda like chaos, a human term to something that doesn't actually exist, but at face vaue stands consistent with the idea. We will tend to do things that is prone to our survival and our communities survival. We will also tend to try and understand our surroundings as much as possible so that we can be aware of threats or changes. This is easily noticable with people who are self contained or gossip alot. Things that fall outside or contratictory to our understandings we tend to react kinda harshly to at least at first.
On a somewhat related note it actually is a fact that the most easily recognizable face is an angry one. We seem to be genetically hardcoded to pick up and focus on things that most clearly benefit our chances of survival. Kinda an off topic of mine, but I kinda think society is still pretty stuck on the things most prone to our survival and not our communal evolution/ascenion...won't really babble about this unless someone wants to bring it up more...might just start a different thread for it...
I still think it would be fun to assemble a story and rp for this philosophy and theoretical science stuff. Would be kinda hard to do some things as most people would likely have theoretical entities similar to the null entity putting them in soewhat of a god-mod situation...but if we were all gods and intelligent I'm pretty sure we could do something, nnot alrp as to have conlict anyways. ^_^
I never understood why religions have a problem with evolution.
How hard is it to say that Evolution is God's process, and the concept of Creation is simply a symbolic method of explaining it? They apply symbolism to many other concepts, why not this? When I first heard of Creation, I thought "Hm, that's nifty," and when I heard of the Big Bang (<-Dumbest Scientific Name EVER!) and leading up to Evolution (<-See? Dignified!), my first thought was "Oh, so that's how it works." Then the fact that it's treated as a divisive conflict just made me go "Hrm."
Evolution doesn't say God doesn't exist. It doesn't even say that He/She/It didn't do anything. In fact, if the universe did come from that "Big Bang," then what caused the reaction? If everything was in equilibrium up to that point, what could have caused such a catastrophic event?
See, this is why I don't worry myself with "Where did we come from?" questions.
Ascension...
I've dwelled on this myself, but there's one major problem...
How do we do this? Apparently space travel isn't inspiring enough (oddly, I don't think there has been any religious debate about this one...), and all attempts at global government have been met with apathy and ignorance. The one thing that is global, religion, has been hamstrung in recent generations and the point (basic morality) is often ignored in favor of minor-turned-major disputes.
What would it take to inspire the masses into wanting more and seeing outside the Idiot Box?
No, I don't mean the box Devious was talking about. I mean the Incandescent God, Television. It seems to me that more people are obsessed with celebrities and their foibles than actually doing something important.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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But if you want Averick, I could toss a coin, shout "Heads," set you to Ignore, regardless of the outcome, and never have to read another word you type out.
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Oooh, that's my favorite option! I choose that one! Rather than actually doing any work, why don't you just consign yourself to that fate?
This is the problem right here. Are we conversing? Are we actually learning anything from each other, or are we all just typing an pretending that others are caring what we type?
Can you be wrong, Grey? Can I be wrong? Do either of us care to be right or are we just pushing the arguments around?
If we're RPing in a game, I don't care, cause we're all just having fun. When someone gets personal, I'm the FIRST to go "hey, hold on, calm down". But this is supposed to be debate/argument/idea sharing session where we actually seriously discuss topics.
How do we do that with this kind of derailing influence? You just give up? Should I set you to ignore because of your lacksidasical attitude? Because you're more interested in quiet than... gee, is it justice or honor or... what would it be?
All of these topics are related.
Absolutes in the reality of the universe, and the moral absolute of ego or god. "This is wrong." "This is right."
How can anyone who's studied anthropology and history see religion as anything more than a cultural manifestation of human psyche developing against the backdrop of the accumulation of knowledge by man about his universe? Especially if you note the patterns in the major religions worldwide and the continual regurgitation of themes from one culture to the next.
I don't know, seems pretty obvious to me. We have instincts. One of which is to gather as much as possible. The other is to be part of a herd. So when these to instincts work together, you have a community looking out for the community and working hard doing so. When they break down into "bad" behavior, you have individuals putting themself in front of the group and trying to get more than everyone else.
Is that cogent?
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People within society like the reliance upon others. FIrst they find they rely upon their parents for everything. Slowly they move and grow to rely on others to teach them and to learn from their peers. Once you're an adult however you are told to think for yourself and stuck in an odd situation of "What am I gonna do?".
That seems reaffirmed in the way many things are worded as guiding, individuals being lost or found, discovering purpose, how to lead a good life. It's all an appeal to a new "parent" figure that we feel we may have somehow lost.
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You know, now that you mention it, I've never noticed that. I mean, seen it all around sure, but never actually taken note of it in any other context than "it's there." This explains so much!
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I'm somewhat inclined towards the biological approach that morals is kinda like chaos, a human term to something that doesn't actually exist, but at face vaue stands consistent with the idea. We will tend to do things that is prone to our survival and our communities survival. We will also tend to try and understand our surroundings as much as possible so that we can be aware of threats or changes. This is easily noticable with people who are self contained or gossip alot. Things that fall outside or contratictory to our understandings we tend to react kinda harshly to at least at first.
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Heh, only too true. Happens every time someone figures out that something works completely different to what was formerly believed - especially if the church is involved. 
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On a somewhat related note it actually is a fact that the most easily recognizable face is an angry one. We seem to be genetically hardcoded to pick up and focus on things that most clearly benefit our chances of survival. Kinda an off topic of mine, but I kinda think society is still pretty stuck on the things most prone to our survival and not our communal evolution/ascenion...won't really babble about this unless someone wants to bring it up more...might just start a different thread for it...
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Well, maybe not a whole new thread, but I don't see why we can't open up a quick subsection here. I have to say I disagree quite a bit with this - in my opinion, if the benefit to survival was this engrained into human society, there wouldn't be all this self-destructive behavior around.
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How hard is it to say that Evolution is God's process, and the concept of Creation is simply a symbolic method of explaining it? [...] Evolution doesn't say God doesn't exist. It doesn't even say that He/She/It didn't do anything.
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The reasoning of general logic. And yet it seems to upset a great deal of the human populace - and I can say from experience that this perfectly logical deduction is not the only one.
To me, it seems that in humans logic, instinct, emotion, and intelligence have been stirred together into some manner of greatly confusing mixture. Any way I look at it, I can't make heads or tails of things. Sometimes, they'll follow logic, other times kick and scream from instinct, and so on and so forth. Frankly, it confounds me a great deal. 
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Well it looks like are finally getting somewhere in the deeper, esoteric discussions that make philosophy so great.
Here is what I see so far, and I beg your forgiveness but being an amateur philosopher and former teacher, it seems to me that Devious, Mr. Grey and Monody all seem to thinking on similar lines here with the questions you are asking and the points of view you are sharing.
I sense that you three share a bit of pragmatism and nilhilism with a touch of cynicism or perhaps even agnosticism.. which is great! This is why Socrates went around asking questions. He wanted to try and understand.. as you know already, I am an existential idealist.. so my perspective is from entirely another view..
but this thread proves, I believe, the fact that any serious minded individuals who can have civil discourse can in fact have that discourse and perhaps even learn a bit from each other no matter how divergent their ideas...
Um, o-kay...you're forgiven? 
Don't worry about me bud, I'm not one to claw people for knowing stuff better than me.
I can't say I'd agree with being classified as a nihilist, though. Yeah, I had to look up all of those terms, and you may not have meant them by their textbook definitions, but I certainly do think there's purpose and value to humanity - and just life in general.
My logic: nature does not waste, at least from what I've seen. Stuff's just too linked not to have a purpose. Everything comes from somewhere, everything goes somewhere. Best picture of that is probably the Interconnected Flow Theorem...then again, I'd probably just bore you with that. But yes, I do think everything is connected with both itself and to some purpose. What exactly? Got me. 
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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But if you want Averick, I could toss a coin, shout "Heads," set you to Ignore, regardless of the outcome, and never have to read another word you type out.
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Oooh, that's my favorite option! I choose that one! Rather than actually doing any work, why don't you just consign yourself to that fate?
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See, that's precisely why I don't set you to ignore. The phrase itself was supposed to be ludicrous, not insulting. If I did, I apologize. That wasn't the intent.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
I kinda believe that existence has a form and function, though purpose is something I can not perceive nor can I trust there to be one. This doesn't mean I don't want to seek a purpose for myself or my society however. To me no divine goals and such simply means we have to do a bit more thinking is all.
And yeah, I can be pretty damn cynical at times, sadistic too, but that's a different issue...
Aside, I can understand the idea of a self destructive streak within our race even though we are at a base a creature of survival only because our ability to reason easily gets muddled up in our beliefs and emotions, leading us to rather odd reactions and ideas at times. Not to mention these beliefs also would be referring to such things as separate cultures and the idea that even though we are one species that we are somehow different from nation to nation....hell even town to town at times.
War is a mixed emotion topic for me...I'm the kinda person that says things like "what ever happened to the good old days when people went to war for fun?". It's really more a reference to the honor and intent behind many of the older types of battle field conditions. You actually had to physically be next to your opponent most of the time and see their face or reactions as you fought them, actually get to know the person in ways that you would never get to in any other condition. Kinda off from the topic, but yeah...
War from any political, religious, or other similar point of view is rather commonly based on personal opinions that rather than using logic to find a conclusion, it is used to find a justification. That's kinda to me where our ability to reason breaks down and interferes with our tendency to favor survival.
There's also the thing about hostility towards differing or new things, which when you get the mob mentality going, the opting for exclusion and/or survival kinda leans rapidly towards large scale violence.
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But if you want Averick, I could toss a coin, shout "Heads," set you to Ignore, regardless of the outcome, and never have to read another word you type out.
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Oooh, that's my favorite option! I choose that one! Rather than actually doing any work, why don't you just consign yourself to that fate?
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See, that's precisely why I don't set you to ignore. The phrase itself was supposed to be ludicrous, not insulting. If I did, I apologize. That wasn't the intent.
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Yes, well, I was being silly. You literally cannot offend me. Well, not on a message board. My question still stands. Before we all agree to have any sort of deep, philosophical conversation and actually apply brainpower and time, shouldn't we all commit to trying to get something out of the process instead of just flexing our "I R SMRT" muscles?
Grey, if you put out the most beautiful post about philosophy, and I spend all my time nitpicking semantic arguments about it to try to maintain some sort of imagined superiority, who is that good for? How does that help?
So do we just ignore those folks or do we try to help them? And if they struggle, how hard to we fight back before we let them drown?
There's a real question for you.
For some people nitpicking the details is the important part, though. Look at how many people quote scripture to satisfy their closed-minded lifestyles.
Besides, outright ignoring someone's "Nerd" instincts isn't going to accomplish anything. Plus there's the fact that they may point out something we've missed.
Think of it like this... Do you play chess to win, or do you play it to learn? Not once has a Blitzkrieg worked on me. What I've learned is that most moderately experienced players try that immediately (I have yet to go up against a grandmaster or whatever they call people who "roxxor" chess, and I hope I never do; I would get so "pwned" my currently nonexistant children would feel it; I would be forced to have children so they could feel it). So, I've learned to build a strategy to counteract it. Sometimes I win, sometimes I stalemate, and only once did I run across someone who was able to move outside his normal box of thinking and defeat me (but I fought to the last piece, dammit!).
Debate can go the same way. The point of a debate is not to determine who wins or loses the argument, because both sides feel they're equally right. However, many debate seeking to win. These individuals rarely apply anything to the actual debate and spend their time attacking their opponent.
No, I'm not saying anything about you guys. I'm actually remembering a few personal experiences when i talk about this one...
In any case, the one trying to win will attempt to "gain ground" by emotionally hamstringing the competition. I once saw a girl reduced to tears in an abortion debate because the other debater delivered a low-blow about her crippled-from-birth little brother.
"If your parents had known he would turn out like that, would they have aborted him?"
I think the real question there is "How obsessed with perfection are you?" but I digress.
The point to my mentioning this is that i didn't actually learn anything about the issue. I learned that one of my classmates loved her little brother very much, and to hear his very being threatened in such a way could reduce her to tears (oddly enough, he's the one trying to get her out of her rut, now), but I didn't learn anything about why it was such a difficult issue. I had to learn such things outside of the debate.
All too often, I have to learn about the issue outside of the debate. The problem with this is that most people make their decisions based upon the supposed outcome of a debate. If all you do is lay low your opponent, then you haven't informed anyone of anything, you've only fogged up their minds with "Right of Ascension" trite.
((*PLEASE NOTE: I do note wish to discuss abortion in this thread. I mention it in this instance as part of an extreme example of an attack in a debate I bore witness to, and it helped facilitate my point. Notice I do not post my feelings on the issue. I do not wish to discuss this. This, above everything, causes far more strife on the boards, and for this thread at the very least, I would rather not see it.*))
Essentially, what I'm saying is that none of us are going to be one hundred percent right. That's what discussions like this are for. We posit our theories, our concepts, our considerations, and we leave them up to public scrutiny. We hope somebody sees what we were driving at, though we may have missed what we were initially trying to convey.
And if someone starts to nitpick, we should look into why they're nitpicking and what they're nitpicking. It shouldn't just be an impasse because we're having a failure to communicate (this is now twice I've had that problem with Devious, once between characters, and now here). It shouldn't be a conflict, either.
I know it conflicts with some things I've said previously, but I like to think we're all here in this thread because we genuinely wish to understand what's going on and the people we're conversing with.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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I know it conflicts with some things I've said previously, but I like to think we're all here in this thread because we genuinely wish to understand what's going on and the people we're conversing with.
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All the rest of your post aside, this was what caught my eye. Yes, I'd like to think so too. If this is the case, shouldn't you and I work toward understanding what each other is saying before debating it?
And of course you can be 100% right. Your position could be that the Earth is made of cheese and mine that it's not. I'd be 100% right, and you 100% wrong.
Of course that's not likely to happen.
But we both know that's not my stance, so why dabble in such absurdities anymore?
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Eh, ya got me. I already stated both conclusions were right, so I'm not sure where to go from there anymore. But then, such is life.
As for chess, there I of course play to win. 
And trust me, many of those 'masters' aren't what they're made out to be. I can beat them, others can beat me, so by extension others can beat them. Just takes some practice.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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You're all wrong.
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Wait, I didn't see this one. I'd like to change my answer!
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Um, o-kay...you're forgiven? Don't worry about me bud, I'm not one to claw people for knowing stuff better than me.
I can't say I'd agree with being classified as a nihilist, though. Yeah, I had to look up all of those terms, and you may not have meant them by their textbook definitions, but I certainly do think there's purpose and value to humanity - and just life in general.
My logic: nature does not waste, at least from what I've seen. Stuff's just too linked not to have a purpose. Everything comes from somewhere, everything goes somewhere. Best picture of that is probably the Interconnected Flow Theorem...then again, I'd probably just bore you with that. But yes, I do think everything is connected with both itself and to some purpose. What exactly? Got me.
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I didnt want to offend anyone here, that is why I asked for forgiveness up front, I like many here, just want to see different perspectives.
Interconnected Flow Theorem? Hey, I wouldn't mind hearing that idea... so Nihilistic is not where you are.. and yes I didnt mean it by webster's dictionary, I meant it more buy Nitzche's definition which refers more to seeing life as disconnected with any such "higher power" or "higher truths"... so it would seem that perhaps you would buy into the Chaos Theory.
You have some very interesting thoughts.. good to hear!
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For some people nitpicking the details is the important part, though. Look at how many people quote scripture to satisfy their closed-minded lifestyles.
Think of it like this... Do you play chess to win, or do you play it to learn? Not once has a Blitzkrieg worked on me. What I've learned is that most moderately experienced players try that immediately (I have yet to go up against a grandmaster or whatever they call people who "roxxor" chess, and I hope I never do; I would get so "pwned" my currently nonexistant children would feel it; I would be forced to have children so they could feel it). So, I've learned to build a strategy to counteract it. Sometimes I win, sometimes I stalemate, and only once did I run across someone who was able to move outside his normal box of thinking and defeat me (but I fought to the last piece, dammit!).
Debate can go the same way. The point of a debate is not to determine who wins or loses the argument, because both sides feel they're equally right. However, many debate seeking to win. These individuals rarely apply anything to the actual debate and spend their time attacking their opponent.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that none of us are going to be one hundred percent right. That's what discussions like this are for. We posit our theories, our concepts, our considerations, and we leave them up to public scrutiny. We hope somebody sees what we were driving at, though we may have missed what we were initially trying to convey.
And if someone starts to nitpick, we should look into why they're nitpicking and what they're nitpicking. It shouldn't just be an impasse because we're having a failure to communicate (this is now twice I've had that problem with Devious, once between characters, and now here). It shouldn't be a conflict, either.
I know it conflicts with some things I've said previously, but I like to think we're all here in this thread because we genuinely wish to understand what's going on and the people we're conversing with.
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Superior post here Mr. Grey, and I concur on so much of what you just said. Here we have some very deep thoughts being expressed about the Universe, Ethics, Morals, etc.. and it is MOST REFRESHING.
I really like the Chess reference. Chess is one of those games that parallels the duality of life: Seeming easy to learn about but difficult to master. Chess emulates the point that you have to LOSE and sometime LOSE ALOT before you learn how to win. And even in that winning, you must be ready to learn, grow and change your tactics as necessary. It also reminds you to be humble, because today you might beat twenty people in a row, but tomorrow you might not win a single game.. just like life eh?
Confucius said that life is all about contradictions, and I absolutely agree...
nothing further on this topic? just curious...
Well, Christmas and the Holiday Season were on our minds this month...
Right now I've got a whanging caffeine withdrawal headache, so I can't wrap my head around much.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Hm, seems the existentialism discussion isn't coming back. So I think I'll hijack this thread and fly it somewhere else for a while.
So, there have been a few recent arguments about the place of humans on these boards, and thanks to a certain movie coincidentally being found and watched a little while ago, the discussion of course started up again between my crew and those of a different division.
As expected, it of course went nowhere. But that's not really relevant. What is was of course a part of me trailing down a different route yet again, specifically to the topic of what local significance the consequences of this little quote have:
YOU
ARE
VIRUS
And while this conclusion has surfaced many a time over the years, it seems that most people don't grasp that a species with viral behavior will of course have a destructive effect on its surroundings.
Now, I don't think that a discussion of 'humanity = virus?' has any merit, as the answer's fairly obvious. What is of importance, at least in my opinion, are the consequences arising from this behavior, as well as the choices not yet made. Long story short, referring only to a local context, and holding all outside variables to be constant for the duration, what do you think should be done with humanity?
Basically, do you think humans can achieve equilibrium with their environment again? Or would everything just be better off without them? Better yet, is there another option? Could this behavior be a part of some greater plan? What do you think?
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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No [censored] Sherlock. Do not pass go and do not collect $200. Insert another quarter and try again.
To answer your last few question, td;lr. Now please take some time out of the few short remaining years of your pointless life as an unevolved, parasitic, ignorant and arrogant mammal with an overdeveloped superiority complex that destroys its surroundings and spends the majority of its time thinking of new and ever more creative ways to kill others of its species to CONVERT TO BWERP.
Erm...interesting point there Bwerp...
Personally I can't imagine human behavior being part of a greater plan...Much too destructive without the constructive...
From what I've seen humans are much too elastic in how they respond to things. Elastic in that they will keep going till either they have to snap back, or something breaks and it all goes to hell.
Hey deviousme, interesting blurb but no hijacking of threads now.. Monody nmay have to hurt you for that hehe...
Hey, it's a thread about philosophy. Where more appropriate to ponder the fate of humanity?
And sorry Dogma, but since I spend 0 time being "an unevolved, parasitic, ignorant and arrogant mammal with an overdeveloped superiority complex that destroys its surroundings and spends the majority of its time thinking of new and ever more creative ways to kill others of its species", I'm afraid I cannot partition any time to convert to BWERP.
Though it does make me wonder, what is BWERP anyway? Beware Warflies Eating Random People?
Now then, back to the point:
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From what I've seen humans are much too elastic in how they respond to things. Elastic in that they will keep going till either they have to snap back, or something breaks and it all goes to hell.
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That's all well and good, but it doesn't really answer my question. Where do you think humanity will head off to, assuming only local context? That something will happen is quite clear, but I asked more what you think said something is. Sorry if my wording didn't get that across the first time. I know for a fact that my English isn't as good as that of a native speaker.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
Hm.
My older brother is of the mindset that the only way for mankind to return to equilibrium with the world is for a very large portion of humanity to be wiped out.
It gets even more disturbing when he says he has aspirations of becoming a political figure.
Fortunately... He doesn't seem to be too ambitious in his professional life anyway... We're talking about a guy who's going on 30 and is still delivering pizza.
Still, he could get a big boost if he joins the Peace Corps...
Hm... I have a future scenario to think about. It doesn't end well.
In any case, I do believe that humanity can return to to equilibrium with the world, but we need to get over one hangup.
Profit.
Not money, we still need that as a token for services rendered. There are a lot of issues made simple by having a currency system in place. However, the greed associated with accumulating vast amounts of wealth for no reason other than to expand a company and acquire more wealth (as opposed to hoarding it for unforeseeable future generations) is certainly holding the human race back.
As it stands, we seem locked in in a self-perpetuating cycle, with the little people feeding themselves to the bloated giant running the controls of a rusting, rotting, self-destructing machine, if only to keep it running for a little while longer...
Honestly, I'm not a fan of capitalism. Too many major businesses are making the government's decisions. We truly do seem to have traded one God for another, golder one. Sadly, knowing my fellow humans, if/when somebody finally notices, we'll just shift back to the other, comfortable familiar choice. I'm not saying that's so bad, but we've been down that road before, and it's still remembered as a dark and dangerous time.
There has to be another path for the human race to walk, for this one is far too treacherous, and all I see at the end of it is a gaping maw, full of fire.
...
I feel weird...
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
You're all wrong.