I believe the original intent was to discuss aethereal concepts (as opposed to ethereal, which is just inspirations toward thought; aetheral encompasses many different realms of possibility, mostly through magic) and it became this current debate.
If we were to still call this an experiment, I would call this science run amok... A little...
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Yeah the infallible truths stuff kinda got us off kilter...
Herm, I guess the thing I was thinking of is kinda like some of the monotheistic and other religions, but Worshiping something like null space is just kinda stupid, It's not like it actually likes you or anything and it really doesn't have any cares...it would kinda be like worshiping a rock hoping it will suddenly dance for you...
Yeah, sorry about that. Incidentally, Averick was right. I just found an absolute. 
And I gotta read more of this now that the question of worshipping stuff has emerged. 
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Well, I'm certain you had another concept running parallel to the null space, but as you mentioned, you were tired, and it was difficult to flesh it out properly. You had all the other stuff in mind, but as you put words to screen, time wore on and your memory of the concept drifted as mental fatigue took its toll. Considering you posted it at what is 4:52 AM to me, I can only imagine how exhausted you must have been at that point.
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Still no contradiction. You just quoted me, you didn't explain how those are contradictions. I must assume that you're misunderstanding the meaning of the words. Let me help you.
1+1=2 includes the conditions, as it was spoken of in the absolute way that we look at math, as in theoretical. Absolute does NOT mean that if you change the definitions of the terms, the words still are true. Absolute DOES mean that the phenomenon you're describing doesn't change, even though you may move from one point in time to another or from one point in known space to another.
This is all three of those quotes put together. You can clearly see that there is no contradiction there, I hope. This isn't an opinion, it's fact. If you need more help with this, I'll gladly break it down further.
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That was uncalled for. I may not get a paycheck, but you know I have a job. And I enjoy it very much. Also, I'd appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth. At no point did I say I knew everything.
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Gonna be a fun day once humans wise up a bit. Or at least it will be for me.
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You're literally saying that once humans wise up a bit, to your level, it will be a fun day for you. This implies you're wiser than humans. Maybe you meant to say something else, but this is what you said. That's what those words mean in that order. I wasn't the only one to pick up on it.
Usually communities let little things like, "most people don't bother to learn
" or "a lot of people don't even know
" but "it'll sure be a good day for me when humanity gets smarter", is a little over the top.
Yeah, I think it was called for. You write like this always. You're always having problems with context, you're always accusing others, you're always condescending. Emoticons don't help. You and I have had offline talks, and you're really not all that bad, you're kind of smart too. You have great potential. But yeah, you could maybe benefit from getting a grip on how your ego does most of your writing for you. I know it would help me in dealing with you.
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To simplify, you see the world in blue, we see it in red.
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Please define "we".
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Everything is relative and depends on the point of view you're looking at it from - relation of observer to observed. It is this same logic that does not allow me to acknowledge anything as absolute. Because from what I've seen, the world is not as predictable as you claim.
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In the world of opinions, I believe that the universe is ordered. I believe that given enough knowledge of the variables at play, and the rules, you can predict the outcome.
Math already shows us that you're wrong. In the world of mathmatics, 1+1=2, always. It's an absolute. Now if you change the value of 1 to 35, and the value of the other 1 to 73, and the value of the plus sign to "throw a banana at Steve" then you're changing what we're saying. You're not affecting whether the absolute truth of 1+1=2 still exists. Gravity pulls, friction slows, light speeds, etc. Absolute truths. 
Actually, I did explain it a ways back. But I can see you don't want to allow that, so fine, I'm dropping the subject.
And do I think I'm wiser than humans? You bet I do. I'm sorry if you're offended by this, but humans are in general bloody crazy. I mean, you will literally kill each other over the stupidest little things. Land. Money. Religious beliefs. That's just...wow, I can't even think of a word for it. But it's not smart, that's pretty obvious, right? And I don't even want to get started on the myriad of other junk.
Now it's true, the above is a generalization, and there are a good few exceptions. Sometimes they're even crazier, but often that's a good thing. But yeah, if this isn't obvious to you, then I don't know what to say to hammer that point in.
As for we; was a typo. Meant me alone.
As for your beliefs; great. You've created rules and regulations that govern the behavior of things from your point of view, and that's great. I mean, if you didn't, you'd just muddle around in chaos all the time. But now you need to expand your horizons. Broaden your understanding. Open your minds (careful though, you don't know what might walk in 
).
1+1=2=0 all at the same time, depending on the point of view. Neither answer is wrong, nor are either static and unchanging. Now yes, I concede there are absolutes - one literally ran over me not...bah, shoddy memory...a while ago. But if you lock yourselves down with these things and keep saying, "this is" instead of "this could be", well then of course it's going to look wrong to you. Because it is. And it is. And it is. And it never isn't. So from your point of view, you're quite correct, and that's wonderful. From mine, you've got a lot to see. But that's okay.
Hm, I seem to have lost my chain of thought. I wonder if something ate it. Would be amusing. But yes, points of view are good. Just don't limit yourself to one.
Hah, look at me saying that. You know, you've got a gift there. Or a curse, not sure. In any case, it's something I can't do. Go figure. Either way, don't waste it.
This is fun.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Devious, are you alright? That last post kind of petered out at the end there...
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
I agree on Devious about the killing stuff...
I mean, what ever happened to the good old days when people killed each other just because it was fun?!
...*cough* any who...Yeah, my initial post did get kinda muddled up, think the second entity from what I recall was more or less the basic pieces...or remnants...or something like that...as long it has some kind of will or personality. Guess the will or personality would be to give the entity drive to commit certain acts...those entities prolly are what we would consider traditional gods as they would actually feel and act out of their own desires as opposed to any natural force.
Maybe Devious is stressin' his head too much, he has posted allot. >.> ...I would suggest...uh...iunno...sleep and videogames? Pills and meds are bad...in my opinion...
Then again he may have just been sidetracked. :P
Either way hope he's oki.
AND IT IS OKI, NOT OK!...oki sounds cuter so I like it more. ^_^
Yeah, I'm fine. From my point of view, anyways. From the view of your medical science with its voodoo-possessed pills, I seem to be a certified headcase, though. Ah well, if I was sane, chances are I wouldn't like my job so much.
And no, I can't rant like Vernon. Would be fun, but even when I really get going, I'm only about halfway there. As for my post petering out, like I said, my chain of thought ran away. I had a bigger point to it all (or at least I like to think I did - I've been told I have delusions of grandeur ever now and then 
), but it said, "To the escape pod!" at some point while I was typing.
Heh...I really need to upload that voice-type-thingy software to this computer here.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Once more we are dealing with math and numbers and all that, but philosophy is much more than trying to understand what is real..even though that question is the number one great question when it comes to philosophical questions, but remember, at least in Western philosophies, there are two more so called great questions that go along with "What is real?" and they are, "How do you know that it is real?" and "if it is real, does it matter?"
Trying to make the argument of what is an "absolute truth" may be fun and quite engaging, but what does it matter to the human condition? Does it help to answer the great questions about what is the meaning of life?, what is our purpose here?, what comes after this life ends?.. and so forth.
Is it the dual nature of humankind that drives us absolutely crazy when talking about what is the meaning of it all? Is it our conceptions, preceptions and biases that so color our ideas that we fail to see a greater possibility? Are the differences that make us so great a species be so diverse that they actually make barriers and challenges to our human race that we aren't able to overcome?
These are the questions that we should be focusing on. The human race is an incredible (but fragile) species- arrogant, xenophobic, petulant, irrational, overemotional, ethnocentric, and sometimes indecipherable... yet, we have at times brought out the very best in us to overcome great challenges.. isn't this the reason that Socrates, Aristotle, Kant, Kiekergaard, Emerson, Confucius, Tao and so many others tried to help us make sense of it all? I think so. This is why I am a Freemason, A gnostic freethinker, who understands that wisdom is what really seperates us from the other species of this planet, and why we gaze into the universe and try to make sense of it all...
Seeing as we are currently sidetracked anyways...
"People live, people die
In the end who cares why
I'm agnostic and I don't really like spending my time on any questions that center around a particular train of thought or faith. Somewhat related it's really the situation that, as prior stated, we really have no complete way of understanding just what we and existence is, or even if it's really anything at all...
The things we can look at here, or that I'm interested in looking at , have a bit more to do with things that can operate on innate logics. In no way do such things tend to discount what people can believe in, which is lucky, at the same time it's a perfectly logical and open subject for people to debate and talk about.
^_^ Let's all have a mental happy place.
My apologies Devious, I forgot to take into account that you were crazy.
The point of language is not to obfuscate, obscure or confuse, but rather to get a point from one head to another. This is just my opinion, (and approximately 6 billion other people's) but you've opened my eyes to the fact that not everyone believes this. Thanks.
I'm opting out of the mental happy place and just settling for a mellow drunk. I'll check in later and see if there's anything actually resembling a logical discussion going on.
Oh, don't you dare go there! I had a dream about that once, and let me tell you, Happyland still gives me chills.
And I don't know about you, but I certainly care. Otherwise I wouldn't be doing what I am. I'll admit, I can be a bit cold in that respect, though I'm not quite sure why. I mean, when that stupid wave wiped out all those people a year back, my first concern was that there went most of my local manual labor force - and the rest now thought I was some sort of bad omen. As Marvin woud say, "Delays, delays."
I don't know, I guess I still haven't fully adapted to this whole shmeer. Stuff from earlier's probably leaking through somewhere. I suspect the do-not-open door, but have yet to find any incriminating evidence. Point is, there are those who care. I know for a fact I'm not the only one.
As for Averick, I can see you've never met a politician. Or a diplomat. Sorry man, it looks like your box is just too small for me.
Changing lanes for a moment, that made me wonder - how connected do yalls feel you need to be? As in, are you someone who can charge on ahead alone, or do you need others to make you comfortable? When you're walking around and see another person, what do you see?
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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I'm not sure what I see. Sometimes, I see people at face-value. They look normal to me, they seem as they should.
Other times, I see monsters. It winds up not just being through sight, but I also seem to feel that something isn't right with them, like they're the sorts of people that major religions warn us are out there.
Now, I've never had to feel particularly connected to others. This personal attitude was generated largely by my environment. I feel myself as an observer most of the time, and when I do have a role in my social environment, it's normally something out of the way that simply alleviates the stress for the "faces."
In a very short while, I'm probably going to have to confront myself over this. Do I wish to keep pushing on the normal way I've always been, or do I want to do something different?
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Hum...guess I shoulda expected a mod to remove that last line, hehe...
I get uncomfortable around others, sometimes to the point of either yelling out loud and running away or hitting someone. :P
I just don't deal well with people, it's not that I don't like talking to them or whether or not I like/hate them, I just get very very uncomfortable in any large group situations.
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As for Averick, I can see you've never met a politician. Or a diplomat. Sorry man, it looks like your box is just too small for me.
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I'm guessing when you hit 25 you may have a shot at recognizing and avoiding this pattern you've developed. I hope so.
...
Okay, that does it. I'm sick of that.
Devious. Averick. I'm going to suggest you two stop talking to each other in this thread for a couple pages.
It's not helping further the discussion. If you'd like to see how bad it can get, might I suggest looking at the 70+ page (and likely growing exponentially) monstrosity about the Golden Compass movie in Comic and Hero/Villain Culture. Rhetoric, vitriol, and other forms of outright ignorance abound in there.
It bothers me to see the same here.
Please, don't explain yourselves publicly (i.e. here). If you'd like to argue with each other, please do it through PMs. I have no beef with either of you, and I'd rather not gain one. You're both intelligent, and it would be a disservice to lose either of you.
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
What? Stating my observations with little to no regard to how they might be interpreted by the observed? Um, no duh. I've been trying to get you out of your box for a while now. I know I said earlier that I know nothing, and while in a cosmic sense that might be true, I do know I've seen more of this world than you. It's just a fact. Since you won't believe me, of course, I'll leave you where you are: in your box. No offense intended, but you really do live inside your own little world. But if you're happy with that, that's cool. I'm not trying to force you out of it - just to understand why you're in it.
And no, I haven't had any luck. With any of ya. Crazy's what yalls are, that's what.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Dammit. No. That's not what I suggested. Not at all.
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Sorry, was writing that as you posted.
Now then, let me consider your proposal...
Okay.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Yeah I think there was a post on the first page about how this kinda thread becoming derailed easily...I personally have somewhat forgotten, kinda need to re read what I have written and see where I was going with it, aside, people might have a nice time thinkinn over what there is and making some of their own speculations on the concept. >.>
I don't know, Grey, I'm torn. On one hand maybe Devious is crying out for help. I mean, come on. At what point did the conversation stop being about the logical discussion of whether or not there are absolute truths and start being all about how I'm in some little tiny box and how he's not human, but above humans and wild assertions with no backings about how he's seen more of the world than me.
I mean, come on, man. On one hand I just don't want to deal with him. I've already put him on ignore once, as have a few others who've PMd me after the last time he went crazy in a thread I was in. So yeah, I can just walk away from it, but then he never learns anything and he just keeps doing it. So what do you think? You think I should put him on ignore again? I mean, do you think I should just totally give up on him as a lost cause?
I can't PM him. That doesn't work. I try and I get nothing but steady crazy with heavy overtones of arrogant. What would YOU do? I'm serious?
I'm tired of the "let's all get along" crowd constantly throwing their daisy bombs in the center of arguments. Why don't you do this, Grey. Why don't you read back through the posts and say "You know what, Averick, you're being an antagonistic jerk, you started all this when you said 'Blah'" and I'll go "hmmm, ok, I guess maybe I shouldn't have said 'blah', and I'm sorry".
Maybe you should just come right out and say "Averick, you need to not start crap with Devious". If it's my fault, and people feel that way, sure, PM me.
Personally, I'm not quite ready to give up on Devious yet. He's young. There's still hope for him.
I love you Devious, you crazy little rascal you.
Whoa man, that's nice and all, but I'm not that kind of guy.
And thankfully, the flow is also restored quite easily, just like falling lava. You can stop it for a while, but it'll weasel its way around sooner or later.
So I think I'll toss out my take on the subject. We know belief is a powerful, powerful force, right? Especially in humans. I mean, we've seen this time and again - when belief takes over, you can get anything from paradise to an absolute nightmare becoming manifest.
But of course, people would rather not face this. Hence comes along the reasoning that some entity controls it all, and that if you worship said entity, it'll keep you safe. Things can be interpreted any which way, depending on your point of view, so it's quite easy to find a logical trail of evidence for said entity - as seen earlier in this thread. And it's certainly not the only trail I've seen. Some make more sense than others, of course.
From my stance, it looks like something deeply engrained in the human psyche, but it could always be an external influence. Not sure. What do you guys think?
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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See, this was precisely what I was talking about. You guys have your issues. I've seen you argue before. However, for the purposes of this thread, it's derailing.
I'm not saying I want you to stop. The largest problem in this world is that nobody ever seems to converse, even if they keep talking. The longer you two keep posting here on the boards, instead of working out your issues personally, the longer this is going to go on because it's less likely you're actually talking to each other but just posturing for the rest of us to see.
This is the same thing I see when politicians and world leaders have disagreements. The only thing this kind of behavior leads to is continued animosity.
Now...
As to why I don't point fingers and say "YOU! OUT!" despite being strongly tempted to do so is
(1) This isn't my thread.
and
(2) I don't know you, Averick.
I've seen some of your prior threads, ones where you accused Devious of Diov-level God-moding. Having engaged in RP threads with Devious more (my first instance being him coming in and pulling Diov off the rest of the RPers in the thread), I was more inclined to believe him. I can't remember if I posted in there saying so, but I didn't want to repeat the same thing here.
But if you want Averick, I could toss a coin, shout "Heads," set you to Ignore, regardless of the outcome, and never have to read another word you type out.
Which would be a shame, because you're not one of the moronic lunatics on this forum who constantly dive-bomb other posters and pollute the boards with 13-year-old trite.
You guys have your issues. I want you to get them settled. I don't believe in ignoring conflict, I believe in conflict resolution. The more we keep avoiding problematic situations for the sake of maintaining the status quo, the deeper we dig this freaking hole.
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From that stance, Devious, you make it seem like God is someone else to blame for some of the world's historical failings. It makes a sick kind of sense, normally people have problems doing violence to other people, except when someone of higher authority says it's okay.
And there is no higher authority than God.
Perhaps this is the major reason why people in relatively recent years have been so openly questioning of the church, any church. It's lost some power, mostly to major governments (once the best friends of religion, now it's greatest rivals for support) which have become self-driving machines that change only slightly when someone else is at the controls.
Having said that, I've lost my train of thought... I think I went in divergent paths and now must decide which one I wish to truly follow...
I'll follow belief. It most closely follows the original point of the thread.
Belief has caused major problems throughout history. Whole civilizations, races, and species have been wiped out by belief. Whether it's been belief in God or in the nation, these horrible atrocities have been committed because someone higher up the chain said it was alright to go ahead.
Nobody remembers the soldier's name in the history books anyway. They remember the generals, the kings or queens, but never the ones wielding the swords or guns. In some instances, they remember that they believed they were commanded by God to do the horrible things they did.
So, with this in mind, why do we have it the way it is? The governments, the faiths, the blissfully ignorant masses?
Perhaps it's because there is something guiding us. Not necessarily evil, but not necessarily good, either. Perhaps it does know what's coming, and what is going to be required of humanity in the coming epochs and eons.
Or maybe it's just how we can cope with the horrible things we've done over the ages.
In the small scale, however, belief and faith are used to bring communities together. In these instances, it's not so much belief in a "sky wizard" (I use quotes because I always disliked this derogatory term, it's as if they're trying to turn God into the stuff of UFOs), but mutual support. These people help each other, comfort each other, and socialize with one another peacefully.
Often, they compete against other local religious efforts, but it's rarely violent. Usually just softball or baking sales.
Before you mention anything related to it, most violent efforts in this case are accomplished by those that are outcast from their society and often have something deeply wrong with them. They are much like the people I mentioned earlier, the ones you can just feel malevolence radiating from them.
Now, I'm out of time, and this has turned into a tangent and a half. My brain is in a weird fuzzy state, and it's hard to think much anymore.
Hopefully I've said something that will stick or click in someone's head.
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Is it me or was this whole mini-discussion his experiment? It seems to me that he's trying to see if we'll (as human beings, well maybe not Ace) argue about 'infailable truths'. While I do think that there are and always will be a set of infailable truths, we have not found them yet due to humanity's need to DISPUTE over the simpliest things.
Someone always needs to be right, someone needs to be wrong, someone needs to know more than someone else, the list goes on and on. Humanity will not advance if we continue to bicker amongst one another over the simpliest things. Maybe it was his experiment to see how we would take the 'infailable truths'.
As to my thoughts on the world: I'm just a single face in the growing mob of three plus billion all gathered around the seclect group of men and women that run the world. If tensions tighten even more than they already are then I can forsee something happening that very well may end human existance. Think Crusades but with guns that can kill at a mile, bio weapons, bombs, and to top it all off, on a global scale.