Frequently Asked Questions about I7 DEF Scaler v2

Arcanaville · 06-16-2006 05:52 PM

Frequently Asked Questions about the I7 Defense Scaling Change Version 2.0

Short Attention Span Theater

Q1: Is there a really short way to describe the change?

A1: Yes, I'll give you two short blurbs about the change. First, this is how I would have written the patch notes, if I was writing them:

[ QUOTE ]
Critters in I7 will all have base 50% chance to hit. Previously, higher Ranked Critters such as Bosses and AVs had higher base chance tohit, but this was unfair to Defense sets that were balanced against base 50% chance tohit. Higher Ranked critters will now get accuracy increases instead of tohit increases.

Similarly, Critters of higher level than the player received tohit bonuses in I6 and earlier. In I7, they will now receive accuracy bonuses from +1 to +5, and only begin to receive tohit bonuses from +6 and higher. This is designed to ensure that higher level attackers within a certain range are also not scaled unfairly to Defense sets.

Because its critter accuracy that is being changed, not players, and not Defense itself, this change has no effect on players' ability to hit anything, and of course has no effect on PvP

[/ QUOTE ]

Second, this is the quickie summary of the change:

[ QUOTE ]
1. If you only fight even minions, you aren't going to notice much of anything.

2. If you don't have a lot of defense, you aren't going to notice much of anything.

3. If you do have a lot of defense, and you fight anything other than even level minions, critters will have a harder time hitting you. The higher you fight, the harder it will get for them to hit you, relative to I6.

4. But if you have REALLY high defense, enough to floor everything in sight, in I7 you might get hit a bit *more* often than in I6.

5. If you are PvPing, you shouldn't care about the change at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Basics

Q1: What change does I7 make to Defense?

A1: None.

Q2: I don't understand, doesn't I7 have a Defense Scaling change?

A2: Yes. But its not a change to Defense. Its a change to Critter Accuracy.

Q3: Okay, what exactly was changed in I7?

A3: In I7, tohit bonuses normally given to critters of different (higher) Rank, and given to critters that are higher level than you, are going to be changed to accuracy bonuses.

Q4: I don't understand. What's the difference? Why was this change made?

A4: This takes some explanation. Don't want a long explanation? Skip to the end of the box.

[ QUOTE ]
We need to start with how tohit works today in I6. Basically, whenever anything attacks anything, their chance to hit the target is based on a couple of numbers. First, the attacker has a Base Tohit probability. Its the probability that they will hit you assuming no other factors are in play. For minions, its 50%. For players, its 75%.

Defense reduces this chance tohit. If the target has defense, then the chance for the attacker to hit the target is
(Base ToHit - Defense).

Attackers can be buffed in a number of ways. For example, they can run tactics. Lets say the attacker has tactics running: tactics is a tohit buff. ToHit buffs and debuffs are factored into tohit by being added to or subtracted from Base tohit. So the net chance to hit the target becomes
(Base ToHit + Tactics - Defense).

Attackers can also have Accuracy. Accuracy, in the CoX technical sense of the word, functions differently than tohit. Certain bonuses are Accuracy, and not tohit. Accuracy Enhancements are Accuracy bonuses. The Weapon Draw bonus is also an Accuracy bonus, not tohit. Accuracy is applied after all tohit and defense factors are taken into account, and is multiplied. So in this case, the net overall chance tohit is really:

Accuracy x (BaseToHit + Tactics - Defense)

The chance to hit anything obeys certain boundaries. In CoX, you can never have less than 5% chance to hit anything, and never more than 95% chance to hit anything. So bounds-checking takes place:

Bounds ( Accuracy x (BaseToHit + Tactics - Defense) )

Where Bounds( X ) means "if X is less than 5%, then the chance is 5%; if X is greater than 95%, then the chance is 95%, otherwise the chance is just X."

This is actually precisely how tohit worked at release. However, around I4 when the arenas came out, a problem arose. It was possible for very high Defense players (Elude, MoG) to have so high defense, it was greater than the attacker's Base Tohit, and any tohit buffs they might have been running. What happens when that is true? When that is true, the (BaseToHit + ToHitbuffs - Defense) term becomes negative. And then when you multiply by Accuracy, you get a bigger negative number. And since that's lower than 5%, the tohit chance became 5%, always. In other words, with enough Defense, a player could make Accuracy completely worthless. (Why did 6-slot dmg/acc HOs not do anything to Perma-MoG scrappers? *That's* why.)

To prevent this from happening, some time after I4, the devs altered the way tohit worked. To the best of my knowledge, its the *only* time they made any significant change to how tohit works (as we would put it - its not how the devs would put it, but thats a really long discussion). To prevent high defense from "Deep Flooring" tohit, they added another Bounds Check:

Bounds ( Accuracy x Bounds(BaseToHit + Tactics - Defense) )

Basically, the intermediate term is checked against the 5%/95% floor/ceiling *before* Accuracy is applied, and then *after* its applied again. This means Defense cannot drive tohit any lower than 5% before Accuracy is taken into account. This change definitely happened long ago, back in I4.

Thats how tohit works. Now why was a change made? Because tohit severely penalizes Defense, and the critters were getting too much of it..

In I6, minions have base 50% tohit. Lts have 57.5%. Bosses have 65%. AVs have 75%. In addition, +1s have +5% tohit. +2s have +10%, and so on. So a +3 Boss (in I6) has effectively a BaseToHit of 80%.

Lets imagine two scrappers, one with 25% defense, and one with 50% resistance, both fighting even minions. The 25% defense scrapper gets hit 50% - 25% = 25% of the time, for full damage. The 50% resistance scrapper gets hit 50% - 0% = 50% of the time, for half damage. Both, on average, take the same amount of damage over time. This is roughly balanced.

Now put them in front of that +3 Boss. The defense set gets hit 80% - 25% = 55% of the time, for full damage. The 50% resistance set gets hit 80% - 0% = 80% of the time, for half damage. In effect, the 50% resistance set takes 40% of the total damage thrown at it, while the 25% defense set takes 55% of the total damage thrown at it. What the heck happened here?

What happened is that adding tohit is not proportional to Defense. It has a large effect on high defense, and a small effect on low defense. Tohit, in essence, is a Defense Counter.

That's fine: everything should have a counter. But the problem was every single LT, and every single Boss, and every single AV, and every single EVERYTHING above even level had it. Maybe tactics should be a Defense counter, but not all LTs.

The problem is that the devs designed and balanced Defense and Resistance assuming 50% tohit, the magnitude of even level minions. Everywhere else, Defense would quickly fall apart. The devs wanted higher Rank and higher Level things to be more "accurate" (hit more often), the problem is that they had two ways to do that, and they picked the wrong one: the one that was unfair to Defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

...The I7 Defense Scaler fixes that. In I7, critters will no longer get higher ToHit if they are higher Rank or Level, they will now get higher Accuracy.

Its for this reason specifically that I'm advocating changing the name from the I7 Defense Scaler to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler.

Q5: I don't have any defense. What does this mean to me?

A5: Basically, nothing. If you have little or no defense, critters will hit you about as often in I7 as they used to in I6. If you have zero defense exactly, even level critters of all ranks will hit you *exactly* as often as they used to in I6. Higher level critters (+1 and up) that are also higher than minion rank will hit you just slightly more often in I7 than in I6, but you'll hardly notice. How much of a difference is there? A +1 AV used to hit you 80% of the time in I6. They'll hit you 82.5% of the time in I7. Just having a single power pool defense basically nullifies this little difference in the math from I6 to I7, so don't worry about it.

Q6: Will this help me hit [fill in the blank]?

A7: Nope. This change only affects critter accuracy, so the only thing that changes in I7 are the ability for NPC critters to hit you, not the other way around. Ever.

Q7: Has any of this been tested, or is this just speculation?

A8: The details of the scaler have been basically disclosed for some time. I've confirmed all aspects of it with the devs numerous times, in exacting detail. I've also testing various aspects of it: to the degree that I've currently tested it, the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler is functioning as described.

PvP

Q1: How does this affect PvP?

A1: It doesn't. The I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler obviously can't affect PvP.

Q2: If it doesn't, shouldn't it?

A2: No need. In a patch around I5, for precisely the same reason the devs are putting in the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler (because I told them to ), they altered Player accuracy in PvP combat: Players attacking Players all have base 50% tohit, instead of 75%, which is exactly what the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler does to critters in I7.

Q3: I thought I heard that in PvP, players get +25% more defense, not lower tohit. In fact, the patch notes say that.

A3: Yeah. Originally, it was called a tohit reduction. A lot of people complained about "PvP driving nerfs." I suggested five separate times in various threads that mathematically, a -25% tohit for the attacker was identical to a +25% defense buff for the defender, so its just as easy to see the change as a buff rather than a nerf. When the patch notes came out, thats how it was ultimately described. Completely coincidentally, I'm sure.

(Actually, I'm not kidding. This is one of the threads in question. Note how Castle describes it in the first post, my observation in the last post of the thread, and note the date: before the patch notes were amended to add the note about the Defense buff in PvP. I should at least get a badge or something ).

Side Effects

Q1: What's this I hear about Elude and MoG being nerfed?

A1: They aren't. They are unchanged.

Q2: But I hear that with I7, the floor is no longer always 5%; that's a nerf to Elude and MoG which used to be able to floor things to 5%, right?

A2: Well, sort of.

First of all, since I4 Elude and MoG have never been able to floor everything to 5%. The intermediate floor guarantees that so long as the attacker has any accuracy. And critters have accuracy: its been confirmed, for example, that all Malta minions have +20% accuracy (1.2), and Gunslingers themselves have +100% accuracy (2.0). MoG and Elude was *never* flooring them to 5% since I4.

It *is* true that in I7, accuracy is going to be a lot more common, and stronger, because all Rank and Level Bonuses are going to be converted into more and more Accuracy. So overall, Elude and MoG's performance is going to go down when fighting those things.

Q3: That's broken. They need to fix that.

A3: Its not broken. Its exactly, precisely what's supposed to happen.

In I6, Elude can floor an even minion to 5%. That's 90% damage mitigation. That is Elude's maximum performance against even level minions. Elude can floor a +2 Boss to 5% also; that's 93% damage mitigation. Elude is stronger against a Boss than an even minion. That means Elude scales upward to stronger values against higher Rank and Level foes (until its finally overwhelmed) in I6, relative to Resistance that has constant strength regardless of attacker.

In I7, "normal" defense will now scale correctly - meaning, it will have the same strength against foes of any Rank or Level, making it comparable to Resistance. It would be unfair if "ultrahigh" defense also scaled *better* than Resistance. In I7, Defense of any strength, and any value, will scale correctly - it will have constant mitigation strength. It won't break down, and it won't go up either. That's the correct behavior.

Q4: But MoG is now even more worthless in I7 than in I6.

A4: If you think MoG was worthless in I6, its worse in I7. That's a problem with MoG, not a problem with the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler. Nor is there really a way to change the Critter Accuracy Scaler to "fix" this problem, without creating worse problems.

Q5: So because Defense now "Scales" upward, +3s will be no more difficult than evens; Defense is now UBER!

A5: No. +3s will still hit you more often than evens (and harder). Just like they currently hit Invulns, and Regens, more often. It will just be the same amount of "more often" not "ridiculously more often."

Q6: I heard this affects tohit debuffs also. Does it?

A6: Yes. If you apply a net tohit buff of X% on a target, that has the same effect, essentially, as having X% defense against his attacks. However, tohit debuffs are a bit more complex than defense buffs, because tohit buffs are affected by the purple patch, and they are resisted by higher ranked villains. But a net X% tohit debuff has the same overall affect as X% defense.

Which means, basically, tohit debuffs have a stronger effect in I7 than I6, in much the same way as Defense has a stronger effect in I7 than I6, against higher Ranked and higher Level critters. Remember: Defense wasn't changed. Tohit wasn't changed. Critters were changed. Tohit debuffs (and defense buffs) are more effective not because they are stronger, but because in effect critters are weaker against them.

Q7: But I heard tohit debuffs were nerfed also?

A7: Unrelated to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler, tohit debuff enhancements were put on Schedule B. Where they belong, with tohit buff enhancements, and Defense enhancements. This does weaken slotted tohit debuffs, but its not directly related to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler.

Q8: But doesn't that [the tohit debuff enhancement change] lower ToHitDebuffs in PvP?

A8 It lowers their maximum slotted value everywhere, not just in PvP. But since most critters will now have less tohit (and more accuracy), tohit debuffs are becoming more effective in PvE as well (the net behavior is sometimes weaker, sometimes stronger, but generally not by large amounts either way). They are becoming weaker in PvP only because players' base tohit was changed *first* in PvP, prior to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler. If player tohit was being changed to 50% now, simultaneously with the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler change, then tohit, defense, and tohit debuffs would have all changed in behavior simultaneously, and no one would be now suggesting that the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler had one effect in PvE, and a different effect in PvP. In essence, tohit debuffs got their PvP buff back in the post I5 Player PvP Accuracy patch, and is getting their PvE buff now. Simultaneously, they are getting their enhancements reduced now, to balance them against tohit buff and defense enhancements, which were lowered earlier, or were always on Schedule B, respectively.

Q9: I've heard Luck inspirations are even more uber now.

A9 You heard right. Because there is, in a sense, an effective limit on how much Defense will do anything at all (45%), two (small) lucks will automatically do as much as any amount of Defense you can stack on top of yourself by any other means. Two Lucks = Max Possible Defense, barring tohit buffs and Defense Debuffs.

But was there ever a time when Luck inspirations *weren't* uber?

Q10: I heard lucks were nerfed. Is that true?

A10: No. Lucks were not nerfed. Completely unrelated to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler changes, it was discovered that lucks are not as strong as their labels say they are. For that matter, Insights are also not as strong as they say they are (all other inspirations seem to be labeled correctly). See this thread for more information.

Technical Details

Q1: What *precisely* does the I7 Defe- uh, Critter Accuracy Scaler do?

A1: In I6, different critters used to have different base tohit:

Minion: 50%
LT: 57.5%
Boss, Elite Boss: 65%
AV, Turrets: 75%

And in I6, for each level higher than you, the critter used to get +5% tohit. Actually, the game used this table:
0 1
1 1.05
2 1.1
3 1.15
4 1.2
5 1.25
6 1.3
7 1.35
8 1.41
9 1.48
10 1.68
11 1.8
12 1.95
13 2.1
14 2.2
Subtract one from the numbers, and add to the critter's tohit. Its +5% per level out to +7, and past that point you're probably dead anyway (This is one of Iakona's tables. Unfortunately, the I7 tables are not where Iakona looks for them anymore).

In I7, the Rank tohit increases are going to be replaced by an Accuracy increase that is comparable. And that number is the critter's base tohit divided by 50%:

Minion: 1.0
LT: 1.15
Boss: 1.3
AV: 1.5

The level increases for even con to +10 are:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>lev acc tohit
+0 1.0 0
+1 1.1 0
+2 1.2 0
+3 1.3 0
+4 1.4 0
+5 1.5 0
+6 1.5 +5%
+7 1.5 +10%
+8 1.5 +15%
+9 1.5 +20%
+10 1.5 +40%</pre><hr />

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Circeus_NA · 06-17-2006 07:27 PM

A6 should say "debuff" in the first few words, not "buff".

Arcanaville · 06-18-2006 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A6 should say "debuff" in the first few words, not "buff".

[/ QUOTE ]

Good catch. Corrected in next version.

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Brawlnstein · 06-20-2006 12:10 PM

This is great info and some good effort.

I'd say the only place you lose me is in A8 as I get a case of MEGO. Maybe have a more friendly answer before all the explinations like "Yes their numeric value will decrease but their effectiveness will stay more or less baseline."

Of course if that too is incorrect I'd say it goes to illustrate my point even more.

(I also threw a question into the older thread on this before I realized you had recreated it fully here. Will lower level enemies be affected by any of this? IE: -1/-2 level minions?)

bekkar · 06-20-2006 01:11 PM

If it's still possible to edit this, you might want to fix the numbering at the end of the "basics" section.

Arcanaville · 06-20-2006 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Will lower level enemies be affected by any of this? IE: -1/-2 level minions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe lower level critters are unaffected by the change, and therefore they will continue to hit you at their previous I6 rates. Which is a good thing, by the way.

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Arcanaville · 06-20-2006 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If it's still possible to edit this, you might want to fix the numbering at the end of the "basics" section.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its always something goofy that I miss. Corrected in next version (its way past the editing window).

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BladeIV · 06-30-2006 01:44 PM

I have a question concerning the Purple Patch on ToHit Debuffs. Lets say you were fighting a +3, and +2 and a +1 minion, and you wanted to use a Darkest Night (AE anchor toggle) on them. Will who you put the anchor on have any bearing on what effect it will have on the others? For example

If I put it on the +1 will that give me a greater debuff for everyone than if I put it on the +3 (since the +1 will have the least amount of reduction based on the purple patch)

or

Will it not actually matter which one I put the Anchor on as each one will determine how effective that debuff based on their own level regardless of who the anchor is.

Thanks!

Arcanaville · 06-30-2006 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question concerning the Purple Patch on ToHit Debuffs. Lets say you were fighting a +3, and +2 and a +1 minion, and you wanted to use a Darkest Night (AE anchor toggle) on them. Will who you put the anchor on have any bearing on what effect it will have on the others? For example

If I put it on the +1 will that give me a greater debuff for everyone than if I put it on the +3 (since the +1 will have the least amount of reduction based on the purple patch)

or

Will it not actually matter which one I put the Anchor on as each one will determine how effective that debuff based on their own level regardless of who the anchor is.

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a weird grouping unless you are PvPing a mastermind, but I believe the answer to the question is that where the anchor goes doesn't matter. The debuff hits everyone in the area of effect "at full strength" and then each target "resists" the effect based on its level.

The debuff isn't really being "emitted" by the anchor, as far as I know. I believe its being emitted by an invisible eminator at the same identical location as the anchor. What makes me think this? There was an interesting PvP bug caught by some people where high speed superspeeders and superjumpers could actually outrace their own debuffs when they were the anchor of a toggle debuff. The debuff icon would flicker off and on in their debuff bar as they sped around.

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Punchy · 07-02-2006 08:49 PM

Do the modifiers for rank and level scale additively or multiplicatively?

Arcanaville · 07-03-2006 01:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do the modifiers for rank and level scale additively or multiplicatively?

[/ QUOTE ]

They combine multiplicatively, like all accuracy modifiers:

NetCritterToHit = RankScaler * LevelScaler * InherentAttackAccuracy * (50% - YourDefense)

So a +2 (1.2) boss (1.3) has a base tohit on you of 1.2 * 1.3 * 50% = 78%. If you have 30% defense, its 1.2 * 1.3 * (50% - 30%) = 31.2%.

The guide to defense, linked in my sig, has all of the exhaustive details.

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Frostweaver · 03-25-2008 02:54 AM

I know this is a little necro, but I didn't see this addressed.

supposed you have floored the to-hit at 5% with defense (as is easy to do with an ice tanker) but you have a total of say...60%
now, the lowest to-hit is 5%. this 'minimum' is applied Before or After the accuracy multiplier?
I mean, does this mean that a malta gunslinger, with a 2.0 accuracy modifier, have a minimum to-hit of 10%? (5%x2.0)

Arcanaville · 03-25-2008 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know this is a little necro, but I didn't see this addressed.

supposed you have floored the to-hit at 5% with defense (as is easy to do with an ice tanker) but you have a total of say...60%
now, the lowest to-hit is 5%. this 'minimum' is applied Before or After the accuracy multiplier?
I mean, does this mean that a malta gunslinger, with a 2.0 accuracy modifier, have a minimum to-hit of 10%? (5%x2.0)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, this was sort of addressed in the post in the section "Side Effects" questions 1-3, but the short answer is that there are two places where floors and ceilings are obeyed: first, when all tohit buffs and defense buffs are resolved, and second after everything else (basically, accuracy factors) are resolved.

So the answer to your question is that the lowest that defense can bring tohit to, *before accuracy* is 5%. Then accuracy gets to work on that minimum 5%: the gunslinger would have a 10% minimum chance to hit you.

Even if the gunslinger had fifty bazillion accuracy, they couldn't increase their net chance to hit you above 95%, because the final, final chance tohit also obeys the same 5%/95% floors and ceilings.

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