Death and Rebirth (RP discussion)


catsi563

 

Posted


So... if I were considering killing one of my characters, or rather, letting someone else do it.. then bring her 'back from the dead' in a form similar to what she had when alive... is this too deus ex machina, or can it plausibly be RP'd?

I'm thinking of having one of my heroines do a 'heroic sacrifice' to allow her companions to prevail... and then get 'tossed back' by (insert Diety here) because ... well, that's what I'm trying to decide.

Guardian angel for those she loves/loved? Atoning for some sin she committed? Too tied to the world emotionally to sit in Paradise? or is the 'death and rebirth' merely some fever dream/delusion as a result of ALMOST dying, and then being brought back out of a coma by medical science?

I'm aiming towards the 'emotional ties' angle... Ghost of Loving Grace, or some such... maybe not only by virtue of how much she loves her companions and friends, but by how much they love and miss HER as well. And being with them, fighting beside them, teaching them... that truly IS her reward, her Paradise.

Would someone be so intensely focused on their earthly existence, no matter how noble, that their diety would grant them that continued existence as such a reward?

Not wanting this to be a religious discussion at all. I'm just looking for a dramatic, tear-jerking, midday-soap-opera schmaltzy RP 'hook'.



"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."

 

Posted

There are several points of mythology that plausibly states a person can come back to the dead under certain circumstances.

Draugr and kyonshi are my personal favorite, but among to two, draugr can be the most plausible for what you want, since the soul/personality sometimes continues to reside in the body after death.
According to the mythology of a draugr, if a warrior had treasure and/or wealth that was unfathomably important to them, death would not stop them--their soul's desire to be with it and keep it safe and protected would force the body to respond, despite the fact that it would normally be unable to do so. They would then rise from the grave with the sole purpose of protecting what was near and dear to them, guarding it for all eternity.
This wouldn't happen normally, though, so the treasure had to be of THE utmost importance to them, something they would be willing to lay down their lives for time and time and time again. That can be dramaticized pretty easily, seeing as how souls normally don't overcome death to return back.


 

Posted


Well aside from the 'rise from the grave' bit... that's plausible. She IS protecting what is near and dear.. not treasure or loot, or anything material... but rather her heroic partners and companions. She promised them that she would always be there for them. ALWAYS. She's not willing to wait for them to find her in the next life, she's come back for their sake, as well as her own. Just not into the undead thing...

I dunno.. maybe it's all too much schmaltz. I just see movies like Ghost and Always and such... and I'm thinking, this is perfect!



"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."

 

Posted

The death and re-birth thing can be really dicey. The examples you give of Ghost and Always really focus on someone who either can't or won't pass on until something they left in life is resolved. In my book that makes them... well ghosts. Somehow I don't think that may be what you are after.

The Dragur is a good idea... If it was a character of a more violent bent or done in by a particularly nasty means I'd reccomend the revenant bit like "The Crow." There the motivation is more vengance than anything else. Too mad to stay dead if you will.

Then of course there is always cutting a deal with your deity of choice. This can either be very dark or very humorous depending on how you want it to be played. Be careful there however, too many folks recognize a "Spawn" like character.

It all depends really on the character's background, their beliefs about life and death (and what's beyond), and how you see the story being told.

Hurm... rather round about way of saying "It's up to you."


 

Posted

Huh.

Revenant... interesting...

all of a sudden I'm seeing Charlie Sheen and fast cars in the Arizona desert for some reason... (gaah!)

Ah well... kind of tossing the idea around... just came up in a discussion in-game, and all of a sudden my brain went 'why not? stranger things have happened...'

The funny thing is, this character hasn't professed ANY beliefs whatsoever. It hasn't come up until now (mainly because I really try hard to keep my personal religious beliefs out of the game, knowing that if I didn't, someone would be offended!).

I don't know, I guess I'm trying to rationalize why Love would be a powerful enough force or emotion to drag someone back into the world. Up until now it's been hate or greed or the other base emotions. Trying to offset that....



"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."

 

Posted

loves the most powerful force in the universe. its an almsot universally accepted device in mythology for characters to risk all for love.


So you mean you'll put down your rock, and I'll put down my sword; and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people?

Dubbed first knight of pep-istan by her majesty Queen Pepcat. first catmonaut to walk onna moon.

PENGUIN!!!...(^)>
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Posted

I have one "dead, coming back" character, where a scientist ressurected him via advanced techniques a la Robocop style.


 

Posted

Since this is a game based on comic book superheroes, someone coming back from the dead is entirely acceptable and believable. Pretty much any reason can be given.

That being said, I like the whole "love brings her back" idea. Makes a nice change from the usual vengence stuff you usually get. Though you COULD always go the mysterious route.

Maybe she doesn't know how she came back. She could consolt someone from M.A.G.I. maybe, and the Draugr could be given as a possible cause. But was it that, or was it something else? Dun Dun Duuunnnnnnnn

This could also lead to another storyline later on, where she finds out just how and why she's not dead.

Jus' my two cents.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Since this is a game based on comic book superheroes, someone coming back from the dead is entirely acceptable and believable. Pretty much any reason can be given.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFE.

For me, I try to avoid killing off chars for this very reason. If you read comics, as must folks in CoH do, you've seen this happen.
If you're a Marvel comics reader you've seen this happen two dozen+ times.

It's just a very old and used concept, so it doesn't have quite the same effect it would if it were fresh.

That said; ANYTHING is acceptable as a return to life in the comic world.

Heroes have done everything from fighting Isis and Horus in the Underworld to reclaim their soul and return to earth; to simply being told it's not their time and getting chucked back to earth against their will.

Pretty much any reason is plausible in the comic book world.
After all how many times hass Manticore shot a team mate now? OH that's right.. I went there.


 

Posted

Pretty much echo what everyone else has said so far. The 2 electrons with that I'll throw in can be summed up with one title: Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

I forget how many times the main character died and was brought back. Season 1 was a very plausible cause and effect. The next time she died and was brought back was very well done and very emotionally and intelectually satisfying. The 3rd time, well it was a great sacrafice that she performed, and when she was again brought back it not only became a ho-hum experience, but it also cheapened the emotional impact of the original deed.

I'd not invested any emotion into the original sacrafice because in the back of my brain I knew they'd bring her back. It'd become stock and boring. Afterword any and all "mortal danger" that the core characters in the story faced, I no longer cared about. We'd established that death is not permant, therefore if they lived or died was completly pointless.

Same thing began to happen in Xena. "Oh look, Xena's died again! I guess Gabby will have to do something cute before the end of the episode to bring her back." The only thing that saved Xena from the ho-hum who cares mentatily is that in an overall sense, they didn't take it seriously -- it was all camp. Even so, after a while, the plot device ran thin.

In general I have zero problem in a properly contructed fantasy world where death can be turned back and the those who have fallen rise again, and not in some creepy zombie/litch kinda way, but that's also an angle.

No, my problem stems from its overuse. If death is not permanant, or does not have the chance of being permenant, then any sacrafice that the death is accountable for is cheapened and the emotional promise is broken.

My advise/suggestion is to leave the dead dead. If they must be brought back, write it very very carefully so as to not cheapen it, nor insult your readers. And don't over do it. It should be a universe bending event to turn back death's hand.


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Posted

All very good points.

And yeah... the death and rebirth portion is the easy part. I can plausibly come up with any number of devices to explain how and why.

The tricky part will be dealing with ALL of her companions, who believe (quite firmly!) that she's dead and gone, and have probably suffered some emotional upset because of it.

Especially if she comes back... different (until I get her to 30 I can't get her an aura, and I don't really want to respec her unless a freebie shows up with I7, so this'll just be costume changes and the way she's RP'd.)

THAT's the story I'm looking to craft.



"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."

 

Posted

Say Doc,

What will happen to her from the experience? Although Buffy stays the same, Marvel characters tend to go off in awhole new direction when they come back. Are you planning on a total toon change via the respect and all [and RP attitude change]? Just curious what plans you might have, that also might help us get the suggestion juice flowing.


 

Posted

When it comes to character dieing and then being reborn one my favorite ways comes from a romance series abour Darkhunters. WHen a Darkhunter is made his/her death was so painful that the screams of anguish he/she made awoke the god Artemis and was returned to earth with greater powers and just pretty much a bad monkey.

I just like the fact that they awoke the gods with thier pain.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Say Doc,

What will happen to her from the experience? Although Buffy stays the same, Marvel characters tend to go off in awhole new direction when they come back. Are you planning on a total toon change via the respect and all [and RP attitude change]? Just curious what plans you might have, that also might help us get the suggestion juice flowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

<laughs> Or do a Dr. Who regeneration thing. Of course that would entail actually deleting the toon and starting over. not sure if you want to go that drastic though


==
Nec Hostium Timete -- Nec Amicum Recusate
==
Mains (All Virtue)
Cold Kitty, Ice/Ice Blaster
Pistol Packin' Polly, Thugs/Traps MM
Alts (Many servers)
Too many to list

 

Posted

That's the thing. Her awareness will be... as if she was dreaming, or suddenly 'woke up' from a dream. The time she spent 'dead' will have passed her by completely.

She will discover over time how death has changed her... maybe slowly coming to realize that she did indeed pass away and then be resurrected or 'returned'.

Original idea was to make her 'angelic' in some fashion, where she KNEW she passed away, and the reason why she returned.

But I think it'd be more fun to discover that stuff over time. Perhaps powers surface that 'don't make sense'. She's a tech blaster... without her gear she's normal. What if... she herself develops paranormal abilities? Without the gear? Etc etc etc. That stacked on top of the fact that what to her was an eyeblink of time, between falling in battle and waking up at the foot of Atlas (changed costume, perhaps an aura if I get her to 30 before this all happens), it'll have been months for everyone she knew.

I don't know, I suppose I'm delving into the realm of the metaphysical just to see what's there. And it all came about because the current RP 'story arc' has her up against a foe she has little chance of beating, she's been whupped by him twice, captured, subjected to torture, etc. He's trying to break her spirit, but perhaps that the only thing she'll have left when we finish up that story.



"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."

 

Posted

OK... so... all of this went down last night in an awesome RP (going to have to edit and post the chat log someplace)...

But practical upshot... took on a foe way too powerful for her, battlesuit overheated due to all the juice being pushed through it, 2nd and 3rd degree burns from her pushing it past failsafe in order to 'get the job done'... she foiled the villain's plans, but went into cardiac arrest from shock on the battlefield.

Three minutes clinically 'dead'. No big deal, right? The docs got her heart beating on its own, treated the injuries... but she stayed in a coma for approximately a month.

Which to her passed in about a day's time, in some 'limbo' space that strangely resembled Estes Park Colorado (hey to an electricity blaster, being up where there's a lot of lightning strikes is kinda reassuring.)

I won't say she 'met her Maker' but she did encounter some sort of entity, one that gave her a choice - return and finish her destiny, or leave it unfinished. She chose to finish it.

And came out of the coma. yay, another month of bed rest!

However... in that time one of her dearest friends suffered a psychotic breakdown and went rogue. Seems that if you promise to love and cherish someone 'forever' and then up and 'die' on them... they take it personally. So now she has a rogue heroine to corral (yes my RP friends tend to go for some severe angsty stuff - go figure).

So.. although the death and rebirth was rather minor in the scheme of things, the results are rather convoluted.. which is kind of what we were aiming to do.


Thanks for all your input on this question.



"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."