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On the plus side, I'm wondering what the deal is with the raised DEF cap. 2.5% instead of 5%? That'd be pretty sweet, although we'll need like 3 Defenders to reach it consistently.
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Even if it is 4% that is 1 in 25 instead of 1 in 20, which is not bad at all. If 3%, then 1 in 33. If 2.5% then 1 in 40 - I don't think they would go that far... but who knows 
Hm, actually, there's a strong possibility he's talking about the ranged component of Invincibility, while we're all talking about melee ...
In Issue 4, the ranged component of Invincie was just over half as effective as the melee component (120 melee/68 ranged).
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Even if it is 4% that is 1 in 25 instead of 1 in 20, which is not bad at all. If 3%, then 1 in 33. If 2.5% then 1 in 40 - I don't think they would go that far... but who knows
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Yeah really, though Invuln right now are the only ones who can cap anything without outside help. So its not much help to anyone else really - even Ice who's supposed to be pure DEF.
In fairness, I need to adjust the spreadsheets a bit so CE only works vs 10 mobs. Of course, that will make the story for Ice Armor worse, not better by comparison. But then again it'll be tough to judge completely without knowing the new -Recharge amount and the new damage debuff amount.
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Hm, actually, there's a strong possibility he's talking about the ranged component of Invincibility, while we're all talking about melee ...
In Issue 4, the ranged component of Invincie was just over half as effective as the melee component (120 melee/68 ranged).
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Hmm ... this is the best explanation i have heard so far.
Wasn't it shown that it's the combination of DEF and RES that are necessary for properly balanced (survivable) tanking? If so, why are we even discussing all-or-nothing DEF or RES?
Seems to me all tanks should have a mix of BOTH...and the nature of the primary is the balance decided between the aspects. For just a wild off-the-cuff example,
Invuln= 80% res, 10% def, 10% regen
Fire= 70% res, 10% def, 20% regen
Stone= 50% res, 30% def, 20% regen
Ice= 10% res, 80% def, 10% regen
If I remember (probably somewhat inaccurately), Havok pointed this out as far as the aspects of defensive abilities. It's more than just DEF and RES, but it's definitely the mix of all that is important. Making a set that's all one and none of the other is doomed to fail. You MUST have at least some amount of each aspect. This is why Ice fails...it has no 'basic' RES component and thus is prone to AV one-shotting. (Note 'basic' RES as in RES-all, with a hole for a weakness like cold or fire or...)
Invuln should not be quite so quick to give up all DEF, just most of it. All of the sets should have a bare minimum in the other aspects, along with a smattering of healing. What is the bare minimum? I don't know, I just put 10% as the example; but certainly for Ice it should be just enough RES to prevent insta-death.
Wherever the balance lies in the percentages, I think the principle behind this point should be clearly refined and espoused, and all adhere to it as a basic principle. Assuming that is you don't all think I'm full of it 
-Sandolphan
EDIT: I just realized some possible confusion. By giving sample percentages, I do not mean that resistance should be 80%...I mean that the powerset is skewed 80% IN FAVOR OF resists, with the remaining percent divided among defense and healing.
"When heroes fail, the Angels will save you."
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I'm concerned by States saying "...fires off invincibility...", it being a toggle and all. He's confusing it with Energy Absorbtion from the sounds of it... I'd have to check his numbers again but I think he's mixed up EA and invinc.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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Even if it is 4% that is 1 in 25 instead of 1 in 20, which is not bad at all. If 3%, then 1 in 33. If 2.5% then 1 in 40 - I don't think they would go that far... but who knows
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Yeah really, though Invuln right now are the only ones who can cap anything without outside help. So its not much help to anyone else really - even Ice who's supposed to be pure DEF.
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Stone is capping nicely, all things except Psi with Granite. And Fire can cap S/L too and cheaper at that. Tough works wonders.
Also note that Inv must have a group around him. Eventually he will want to kill that group and then as he does his defense melts away.
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Unless an Invulnerability Tanker fires off Invincibility when 12 or more mobs are within range, according to Circeus' chart, Ice Armor will be superior to Invulnerability against Cold, Psionic, Toxic, Energy and Negative.
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To me, this implies that Ice usually does very well against some of the more exotic damage types.
Invulnerability, on the other hand, does very well against the most common damage types AND it autoscales upward as the threat increases to the point of exceeding the performance of Ice in all respects.
Have I interpreted that correctly?
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And when may all of this very welcome attention to the DEF Tankers bleed over into the DEF Scrapper world? Reflexes is hurting too (except against AoEs after L35, in which case they're friggin' nuts now) for the same reasons Ice is gimpified.
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Yeah, I'm not convinced he's right either, but we'll see if he responds more.
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He did. He said 1.5% this time. He is not very good with numbers