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when was the last time someone told your scrapper, "hey you can't use X power,"
[/ QUOTE ] lol...I tell that to MA players all the time. I hate DT too. I have to tell them to wait until I hit Soul Drain before they go knocking fools around. No fan of Crane Kick either. In fact, MA is the one scrapper set i enjoy teaming with the least.
Don't feel bad. I get on Defenders who use ET in appropriately as well.
And I'm sure if I pick up ET at 49, I'll get yelled at too 
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I'll agree to this, but only if I get an accept button on your status protection.
[/ QUOTE ] Sure, you know you'll just put it on Auto Accept.
whatever. a few missed mobs to a scrapper don't spell death.
nuff said.
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lol...I tell that to MA players all the time. I hate DT too. I have to tell them to wait until I hit Soul Drain before they go knocking fools around. No fan of Crane Kick either. In fact, MA is the one scrapper set i enjoy teaming with the least.
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Dragon's tail is a knock up, it won't knock things out of soul drain, and Crane kick is single target, which won't screw up a soul drain either.
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whatever. a few missed mobs to a scrapper don't spell death.
nuff said.
[/ QUOTE ] No. Without endurance your toggles drop. A DC that misses all enemies, means my toggles drop. A Shadow Maul can save my life...when the lead mob gets knocked out of range, Shadow maul won't fire...the two guys behind him unload on me.
No one is making stuff up heph. You aren't concerend with facts or reality. You don't know how all the power sets work or the skill required to play them. Your minds made up that reality is what you want it to be.
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Dragon's tail is a knock up, it won't knock things out of soul drain, and Crane kick is single target, which won't screw up a soul drain either.
[/ QUOTE ] Depends on how its slotted. I beleive if you put knockback in it, it knocks them back. It doesn't do great damage, so IME, a lot of MA's use it for CC. Crane kicking my lead target will screw up my Shadow Maul. When there are only two mobs left, A DC can miss the one guy that is left, or hit no one if that was the only guy.
As a blaster or defender, knockback is great. As a DM scrapper and Kinetics defender, knockback can cripple my effectiveness.
if you don't know enough to manage your endurance you deserve a face plant.
Me I slotted for endurance reduction, and I have conserve power, and unstoppable. my toggles don't drop. For that matter by the time I got dragon's tail I had a pretty good handle on endurance use. one of the cool things about being a scrapper is being able to stand there in harms way while your endurance regenerates.
a blaster who misses is in danger no matter how much endurance he has. In fact the blaster is just plain in danger. if what he hit dosen't die likkitey split he just might be in trouble.
Do you think I'M MAKING THIS STUFF UP? Do you seriously think blasters just stand around tossing out massive AoE's?
Yeah. At least scrappers have defenses worth taking TO DROP if they run out of endurance. Your comment about fighting +4's in your thirties. I couldn't fight +4's in my 30's as a blaster. hell I can barely do it now at 50... and that's only with lucks and a maxed out inferno. If it's a +4 boss.... yeah right.
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if you don't know enough to manage your endurance you deserve a face plant.
[/ QUOTE ] I do know how to manage my endurance...it's called Dark Consumption, and it requires that I have mobs around me. Get it?
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a blaster who misses is in danger no matter how much endurance he has.***Do you think I'M MAKING THIS STUFF UP?
[/ QUOTE ] No need to go frothing at the mouth, I'm talking about the mobs that I am fighting. You can ET/DT your own mobs all you want. If the only mobs that are left are the ones on me...then play like a team member.
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I couldn't fight +4's in my 30's as a blaster. hell I can barely do it now at 50
[/ QUOTE ] You are not supposed to able to do what scrappers are doing solo. I can't take on what Inv/* tankers can take on. So what? I'm not a tanker. Helloooooo?!!?
heph, as long as your sense of balance is all about doing what scrappers can do: "The solo AT". We've nothing more to discuss. You just want to be indignant.
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I didn't say I ONLY used him for solo purposes. read the post. and I never said I NEVER team with him. There's been PLENTY of times when I've herded for blasters.... and stood there killing while blasters help mow mobs down...
And I STILL don't agree with your assertion that scrappers have to move more. sorry.
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My peacebringer is almost entirely melee - my one ranged attack isn't somethign I usually position for. I am constantly moving around to use my pbaoe (Solar Flare), as well as selecting new targets as my old ones run out of hit points. Now, her style is not exactly scrapperlike, but it's not really blaster-like either. There are rarely situations where I can just sit in one spot and casually shift from target to target unless I've decided I don't really want to attack anything.
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whatever. a few missed mobs to a scrapper don't spell death.
nuff said.
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It can. I've had defenders and blasters scatter stuff I was fighting right before I hit dark regeneration, which had the consequence of me not getting healed with several angry Freaks/Rikti/whathaveyou still in the vicinity. This happened to me so many times in the 6-8 levels after I got the power that it was probably one of the top three reasons I hated energy, fire, and ice blasters, as well as storm/ and /energy defenders so much. It's definitely one of the big reasons I hated knockback well into the 30s.
Having randomly thrown energy torrents and explosive blasts break up a group of villains before I could use shadow maul, ripper, etc was just gravy on top of all that.
Now, I realize that the powers themselves aren't sucky and have uses, and I'm actually big on using knockback to tactical effect because of how much it did bother me, and since my current character is a Peacebringer and my next one is likely to be an energy/energy blaster.
I do realize that energy torrent and explosive blast can actually be a form of mitigation for blasters - they can use either to rapidly clear villains near them and keep them on their [censored] for a few moments and ease the pressure. It also has uses for "herding" them around.
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it's not me who's lost his sense of balance it's you. and you're the one who inserted the bit about +4's at 30. I know blasters aren't supposed do that. they don't have the DEFENSE for it. you know that defense that says I don't have to be all that mobile in combat?
who has to move more. the guy who can't survive melee or the guy that can? It really is that simple. we can have this argument forever... but I've played a scrapper to 45 and a blaster to 50. you need to try this on someone else.
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You are not supposed to able to do what scrappers are doing solo.
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Scrappers are not *supposed* to be doing what they currently can solo either. If you want to go by they way things are supposed to be, the gap between what scrappers and blasters is not supposed to be anywhere near as large as it is. There are two ways to fix it, give blasters a very large buff of give scrappers a very large nerf, which do you prefer?
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lol...I tell that to MA players all the time. I hate DT too. I have to tell them to wait until I hit Soul Drain before they go knocking fools around. No fan of Crane Kick either. In fact, MA is the one scrapper set i enjoy teaming with the least.
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Dragon's tail is a knock up, it won't knock things out of soul drain, and Crane kick is single target, which won't screw up a soul drain either.
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Actually, DT is knockdown for even con and higher, knockback for under even con. In other words, in normal play, its knockdown.
Mieux:
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Depends on how its slotted. I beleive if you put knockback in it, it knocks them back.
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Slotting it will cause it to knockback higher foes, but it still will function the same way: knockback for a certain level and lower, knockdown for everything else. You let me know when you find a scrapper that does that, though. I only know this because I tested it when they fiddled with it and tanker knockback, but I cannot imagine a single good reason for slotting DT with knockback.
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it's not me who's lost his sense of balance it's you. and you're the one who inserted the bit about +4's at 30. I know blasters aren't supposed do that. they don't have the DEFENSE for it. you know that defense that says I don't have to be all that mobile in combat?
who has to move more. the guy who can't survive melee or the guy that can? It really is that simple. we can have this argument forever... but I've played a scrapper to 45 and a blaster to 50. you need to try this on someone else.
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To be honest, although I originally expressed the opinion that scrappers need to move more than blasters, I was thinking about only one aspect of maneuvering.
Having thought about it very carefully, and then paying careful attention to my blaster and scrapper recently (especially with all the recent changes on test), I believe my position is this:
Both have to move about the same amount. However, blasters typically have to move *more immediately* than scrappers. The "penalty" for a scrapper jogging over to where they want to be is low; if a blaster has to move at all, the faster the better, and sometimes slow might as well be not at all.
In particular, I noticed that even when I'm not using total focus at all, taking superspeed "jousting" away is actually having a significant negative effect on my blaster. Its hard to describe, but the penalty for not being able to essentially be where ever you want to be, moment by moment, is high.
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[ QUOTE ]
There are two ways to fix it, give blasters a very large buff of give scrappers a very large nerf, which do you prefer?
[/ QUOTE ] The nerf. If they had nerfed /Inv and IH from day one, we would not be in this mess. Because /Inv was so frickin ridiculously overpowered, they had to boost /SR. Invincibility as a power is ridiculous in its current and former forms. /Regen should have had FH substiantially improved as you lvl, healing in Int was a lousy choice, IMO. But, IMO, /SR didn't need the def boost (though it is an uninformed opinion as I never played with I1 /SR).
See, by not nerfing the two scrapper sets that could blow up at high lvl, they had to boost tanker damage. Now it's out of control. They'll never take Tankers alive.
Personally, I have no problem if they nerf our damage by 20%. I think they should leave our defenses (but not Perma-X) and nerf scrapper/tanker damage instead (even nerf Def dmg too). This way we can continue to hold aggro, and be happy we have trigger-happy blasters on the team.
I'd take the nerf in a heart beat. The slider only goes to Invinc..I can't turn it any higher. Defense is not what allows me to solo at that lvl.
EDIT: Since I play Kinetics, I'd like to see them lower Blaster damage so blasters can't hit the cap on their own. But that''s purely selfish....I suppose I coudl live with them rasing the cap, but I'm concerned the blasters would trivialize all other damag dealers if we raised thet cap.
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You let me know when you find a scrapper that does that, though.
[/ QUOTE ] Already have, why do you think we are haivng this discussion? Yes, I noticed that sometimes it did not knockback.
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but I've played a scrapper to 45 and a blaster to 50. you need to try this on someone else.
[/ QUOTE ] You played the ONE scrapper primary that has no Cone AoE's to benefit from movement. The only movement MA has to do is to chase the guy who they just Crane kicked. Two scrappers have ...no..make that three scrappers are telling you that movement is critical for scrappers and you refuse to accept it.
heph, the movement required by each AT is different, but both have to move for optimal efficiency. The exception is when a blaster teams with a good def. Then, less movement is better, ime.
Why are we even arguing about movement anyway?
You've been told by two scrappers that knock backs can equal death, and I'll bet your intransigent @$$ refuses to accept that too. Jesus you're insufferable. You must have hated your scrapper every day you played him.
Mobs dont' kill scrappers...knock backs do.
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You are not supposed to able to do what scrappers are doing solo.
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Scrappers are not *supposed* to be doing what they currently can solo either. If you want to go by they way things are supposed to be, the gap between what scrappers and blasters is not supposed to be anywhere near as large as it is. There are two ways to fix it, give blasters a very large buff of give scrappers a very large nerf, which do you prefer?
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I'm not sure preference will help much, so I suspect we're likely to see a moderate nerf for scrappers, and a moderate buff for blasters.
I may be overly optimistic.
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Both have to move about the same amount. However, blasters typically have to move *more immediately* than scrappers. The "penalty" for a scrapper jogging over to where they want to be is low; if a blaster has to move at all, the faster the better, and sometimes slow might as well be not at all.
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I agree with this.
If my Peacebringer is in human form, she's moving to get a better shot. She's really not at a lot of risk most of the time. In dwarf form, she really doesn't need to move at all, although she gets defeated in that form more than any other. In nova form, she needs to move to line up her cone, her aoe, and find cover. Admittedly, now that I have quantum flight, that's less of an issue (build up, shift, scatter, detonation, human form, quantum flight).
I'm not saying playing a Peacebringer is like playing a scrapper or a blaster, but it does touch upon both playstyles fairly easily.
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I am not sure why we are still talking about this scrapper VS. blaster movement question. It is very clear to anyone that has played both a scrapper and a blaster that blasters move more in combat. They just move more. Why?
This should be flat out obvious. If a blaster is going to line up a great AoE then he actually has to cover more distance than the scrapper to try and get his nice cone over as many mobs as he can. Why does he have to move more? If anyone stopped to think about it the scrapper has a smaller cone and is already in melee thus he does not have to move far for his next cone. On the other hand, the blaster will have to skirt around the edges of a mob looking for the best angle to try and get all the mobs that he can, just covering that extra distance on the edge instead of being on the inside means that blasters are moving more. Just wait though because it does not stop there.
The blaster now has to deal with the agro of this attack. Unlike a scrapper who is built to take melee and can just stand his ground the blaster is always going to move away from the enemy to maintain range if possible. There are circumstances when a scrap might run but lets face facts. Those circumstances are much fewer and far between a blaster fleeing.
So you have a blaster that moves more along the edge of combat and moves after he shoots. Was there ever a question of which AT moved more in combat? I thought this was obvious at first look. This does not even take into consideration blasters that move to maximize knockback.
It would be nice if we can get back to blaster damage in this thread.
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I am not sure why we are still talking about this scrapper VS. blaster movement question. It is very clear to anyone that has played both a scrapper and a blaster that blasters move more in combat. They just move more. Why?
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Experience doesn't seem to bear this out, though. This is where the disagreement is. Or rather, experience varies, as it does not bear out for me, but does for hepheastus. Now, you can take his experiences with less salt than mine because I haven't played a blaster as far as a travel power - but I have used Energy Torrent (very easy to line up, but not so great on the damage), Frost Breath (great damage, great opener), and Fire Breath (similar). But... I have none of 14th level or higher, and hepheastus has played to 50. I can only extrapolate from playing my Kheldian in nova form.
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I can only extrapolate from playing my Kheldian in nova form.
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Nova Form is much better and easier to line up then a blaster AoE, speaking as a Fire Blaster that had a Nova for Kheld, my Fire Blaster had to be much closer, and had (especially in the early levels) less manuverability then the Kheld. The Kheld AoEs are generally wider and farther reaching then Blaster ones, which means, even though they have more manuverability, they don't need to use it.
Just wanted to add my own experience to this little discussion.
My main is a level 50 Energy/Energy Blaster. And if you were to able to put an odometer on him during combat you would never make the statement that any scrapper moves as much as my blaster.
I may not have as many miles on him in combat as opposed to zone traveling, but the difference would amaze most people.
Without defense, mobility is required for a blaster. Not saying scrappers don't NEED to move in combat, but to compare the neccessity of movement between scrappers and blasters is ridiculous.
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Not saying scrappers don't NEED to move in combat, but to compare the neccessity of movement between scrappers and blasters is ridiculous.
[/ QUOTE ] Well...it sure is. But I think the point for many of us non-MA scrappers is that when someone makes a blanket statement about blasters needing to move more....I can compare that to my own experience from playing various different AT's, an Ice/El blaster to 20 being one of them...and the statement is not universally true...not even close.
From playing both a D3 and Kin def to 28...when I covince the blasters on my team to sit their shizoid butts down in one place...their mortality goes down to zero and they do more blasting. So from my def's perspective, blasters do a lot of running around out of habit from soloing or teaming with bad def/tanks and it is unnecessary when teamed with competent teammates. So the biggest criticism I have is that the majority of the time they team with my defenders, the frentics is detrimental and wholly unnecessary. The best blasters I've teamed with have sat still. The worst..."Don't tell me how to play my toon!!!!"
From playing my Ice/El...I've hard far far far fewer deaths with that toon than I have had wth either my dm/sr at lvl 37 or my claws/regen at lvl 19. And I don't need to move 1/2 as much as my dm/sr. I move...but it's gross movements..full on retreats or constant back-pedaling.. My scrappers require a lot of precision...my blaster does not. Distance traveled goes to my blaster...number of keyboard inputs for movement, my DM/SR buy an order of magnitude. Until you play a DM/SR without Stamina...you literally have no clue how critical precision in combat is. Blasters dont' even come remotely close to it.
But the topic is silly. Blasters have convinced themselves that their life is by far the hardest. Maybe it is...
it's harder than any scrapper's bud.
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ET should trigger an "Accept" button for everyone on the team. It doesn't fire unless everyone agrees it should fire. God I hate that power.
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Just singling this out, spite much?
This is another thing Blasters have to deal with scrappers don't, when was the last time someone told your scrapper, "hey you can't use X power," I can assure you, even if you say, alot, it's no more then that same person just told a blaster the same thing.
I'll agree to this, but only if I get an accept button on your status protection.