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I'm not evading jack.
I Just think you guys are nuts. know what my scrapper does in combat? wraps mobs around him like a security blanket and stands in one place going toe to toe with anything dumb enough to step up and get beat down.
My blaster is flitting about like he's on crack..... 2 attacks... fireball and fire breath... then it's time to make like someone put jumping beans in my pants to deal with the survivors. I'm I'm standing still it's on a bonfire patch that I layed before starting the attack. My scrapper isn't repositioning. he's standing there while I dole out pain. If he's jumping it's because something flew away. and what flew away had better be a sapper because otherwise it's not important enough to go after.
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Is this team or solo? Because my experience on teams is 180 degrees removed from this - the tanker is moving the villains around, the blasters are taking them out fast, and I'm trying to locate something that won't die in five seconds so I can punch it for an attack cycle or two.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
wrong. just shows that I don't buy into the scrappers have to move more bit. My scrap barely moves in combat at all...... Mostly when crane kick knocked something back a bit. and "positioning" means jack. combat jump into the middle of the pack and lay waste, wash rinse repeat. You're a fire blaster... You should know how tricky it is lining up for your opening salvo. If your personal experience leaves you to believe otherwise then so be it. but don't go trying to define my reality for me.
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I'm not evading jack.
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Oh I'm Jack now, am I? 
Seriously, I think you make great points on the area of defense in combat. That unforatuntely has little to do with the issue of range and positioning.
Does Fire Breath and Ball have a greater area of effect than Dragon's Tail, Spin, Eviscerate and Shadow Maul?
Yes.
Ahhhh there's the rub.
I barely play my scrapper teamed. I use him for solo purposes and helping sgmates deal with archvillans. He's the "I don't want to be bothered with a team toon" The other 3 characters that I actively play are geared towards teaming. but they're not scrappers. 2 defenders and a fire/ss tank.
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Oddly enough, I'd say our larger-area-effect blasts actually end up being MORE of a danger to us. If a Scrapper wings six mobs with his PBAoE, good and well. If I rake six mobs with Frost Breath (barring a nicely packed group around a tank, a good shot), in the average combat every single one of those mobs can faceplant me inside 3 hits. Six mobs. Three hits. No real defenses, other than outright killing them. Oops. If it's a well packed group, I can hit far more. Pray I don't get their attention doing so. Oddly enough, dropping a few and wounding the others tend to get the others to pay MUCH more attention to me... Ask any Blaster how many bad words he uses seeing a group only wounded by your best shot- and returning fire.
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Good points, all of it. 
never said It didn't.
Still dosen't mean you can just stand there using them without moving. wether you're moving to engage or moving to avoid retribution for all those great AoE's you're moving. or you're meat.
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wrong. just shows that I don't buy into the scrappers have to move more bit. My scrap barely moves in combat at all...... Mostly when crane kick knocked something back a bit. and "positioning" means jack. combat jump into the middle of the pack and lay waste, wash rinse repeat. You're a fire blaster... You should know how tricky it is lining up for your opening salvo. If your personal experience leaves you to believe otherwise then so be it. but don't go trying to define my reality for me.
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I totally see what you're saying, and yes Breath has a skinnier cone than attacks like Energy Torrent. Bottom line though is that it still covers a much larger area of effect than point blanks attacks have.
So yes a Fire Blaster would have to position himself more than an Energy Blaster. But you can still get alot more mobs in the area of Fire Breath than you can with other Scrapper cone attacks. Closest I can think of that compares is Eviscerate, and it's a pale shadow of Fire Breath at that.
Do Scrappers have much more defense than Blasters, and have an easier time? Definitely. But that has nothing to do with the facts surrounding range and area of effect.
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Ahhhh there's the rub. I barely play my scrapper teamed. I use him for solo purposes and helping sgmates deal with archvillans. He's the "I don't want to be bothered with a team toon" The other 3 characters that I actively play are geared towards teaming. but they're not scrappers. 2 defenders and a fire/ss tank.
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Much the same with my Scrapper but I've still grouped quite a bit with him. You and I, because we are MA, have some disadvantages even to other Scrappers because we are a single target set. But I've always been in positions where I'm finishing off mobs from Blasters because I'm trying to play catchup. I have no ranged attacks, or long-range cones, and my PBAoE isn't spectacular. And I dont' even plan on getting Laser Eyes and Energy Torrent because they don't fit my character's profile.
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never said It didn't. Still dosen't mean you can just stand there using them without moving. wether you're moving to engage or moving to avoid retribution for all those great AoE's you're moving. or you're meat.
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Well I never implied that, nor did the other poster who you blamed for saying "Blasters never had to reposition." My arguement is simply supporting his, that Blasters have to close distance and position less than Scrappers.
You immediately assume both of us are saying Blasters don't have to position themselves at all.
Find a quote from either one of us saying that, or drop that issue right now. That's a straw man. (not saying you're doing it intentionally, you may just be presuming out of good faith or some other implication that we believe that)
actually, even in teams, unless dogged by the members of the "I love energy torrent," club, my scrappers rarely have to possition much in teams, if the target I'm working on goes flying away, I'm generally standing next to the tank, so I just tab to the next guy near me.
With my blaster, on a team, I need to wait for the tank to possition, then I hase to possition for AoEs, then move toward the defender's blanket of healing/PBAoE buffing, then repossition for AoE, or to check for a target then needs some extra lovin' then move in to hit with blaze, then back to the defender, then repossition again for AoEs (assuming everything isn't dead)
Solo it's even worse, with the scrapper I just sit in the middle of a huddle of guys, with the blaster, it's breath/ball then move for blaze on an LT/survivor.
You're forgetting repositioning to send that boss stray back at the tanker, then heading back to the other side to renew the caltrop patch between the mobs and the controller, heading up over the whole thing just right to knockdown instead of knockback the entire group as you AoE, then running for cover before they kill you.
Devices and Energy are all about the positioning. That's why they take so bloody long, too. Get to proper spot, lay mine, get to next spot, smoke grenade, lay mine, get to next spot, drop caltrop patch... then set last mine, then smoke-grenade...
this is all before combat STARTS!
I still say "tab, Follow-key" is not nearly the "repositioning" that the average blaster has to do just to stay alive AND kill mobs. Its one more key in the attack sequence that you tap on the way to the attack's numberkey. Its not "critical repositioning".
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I still say "tab, Follow-key" is not nearly the "repositioning" that the average blaster has to do just to stay alive AND kill mobs. Its one more key in the attack sequence that you tap on the way to the attack's numberkey. Its not "critical repositioning".
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Scrappers who "tab, Follow" in teams are more of a liability than an asset, to be honest. It completely avoids actually picking strategically useful targets and can have fun effects like just randomly killing anchors and thus causing squishydeath.
Not that this has ever happened when I was playing a defender...
Anyway, I never use "tab, follow" with my scrappers. Even if I did, and even if I didn't manage to screw things up by not assassinating the sapper that looks like he's about to aggro or ignore the boss that just decided to eat the blaster's head, most of the stuff that tab will get me will die before I can do more than give it a stern look.
Seriously.
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Let me just chime in and say that in my experience blasters move a hell of alot more in combat. In some rare occurances I have not moved more and they were all herding instances. Everything got herded in a corner or a dumpster and then bam I unload with everything. Even in those instances the scrapper is usually right in there with the tanker killing things. Especially if the mobs don't have alot of AoE. So its not like the scrapper is moving around either.
Now, in a normal team session there is no comparison. I move to position, to dart in and out of melee (with SS now with toggle SS), retreat from dangerous situations, run to help teammates that are squishy and something has slipped past the tank.
With the last examply many people will ask "Why not just kill it from range?" and the answer to that is when you are going up against +3 minions and you happen to be an AoE blaster you are not going to be able to kill it from range before it kills the squishy.
So what ends up happening is that I run up and Power Thrust (Gotta love the ranged AT providing support with his melee cause its better than his ranged powers) and since the mob is on his [censored] I Bone Smasher him before backing up and finishing him off with a ranged attack.
Right there alone I believe is a good example of why a blaster moves more than a scrapper. A scrapper moves to engage and proceeds to beat their target. I have never seen a scrapper beat their target then back up, then go forward, then back up. It is a very simple matter of running up to the mob and beating it down.
On the other hand the blaster has to run up and then retreat to range because he can't stay in melee, then advance to melee to use is support powers before once again going back to range. If this doesn't illustrate why blasters have to move more than scrappers I don't know what does.
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Right there alone I believe is a good example of why a blaster moves more than a scrapper. A scrapper moves to engage and proceeds to beat their target. I have never seen a scrapper beat their target then back up, then go forward, then back up. It is a very simple matter of running up to the mob and beating it down.
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My spines scrapper does this.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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My spines scrapper does this.
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I knew I should have addressed this. The big difference I think is that you move to reposition for cone AoE. A blaster repositions for survival either his own or a teammates and also repositions for his cone attacks, AoE, single target attacks with knockback etc.
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My spines scrapper does this.
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I knew I should have addressed this. The big difference I think is that you move to reposition for cone AoE. A blaster repositions for survival either his own or a teammates and also repositions for his cone attacks, AoE, single target attacks with knockback etc.
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Being as my damage resistance is something ridiculously low like 7.5% I can tell you that I occasionally reposition for survival. In fact, I relied on superspeed to get distance to heal up when things went south - which they did more often than I'm sure anyone believes.
But, eh, whatever. Scrappers stand in one spot and kill everything with their pinky fingers while blasters are running away from the fight praying they don't bleed out before they can turn the corner and break line of sight. More seriously, in a good team, the only real need for a blaster to position for survival is to avoid AoEs, and when blasters can fire with impunity (as happens on a good team) scrappers either attack the hardest targets or do nothing but chase corpses.
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there's that "good team" caveat again. and let me guess... it involves a tanker with mobs glued all over him.
I keep saying... An AT that can't even function unless mobs are autistic and can only concentrate on the tanker... or there's a full time controller locking everything down that moves.... is gimped.
Why? the tanker can function without the blaster. the controller can function without the blaster. Every AT can benefit from the powers of the others but they can also stand alone in almost any situation. kinda [censored] up if you ask me. Get right down to it blasters are the most replaceable AT in the game. For the most part all they provide is damage. Everyone deals damage. Blasters deal solid damage.... but when balanced against their fragility and lack of utility blasters need OBSCENE damage.
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there's that "good team" caveat again. and let me guess... it involves a tanker with mobs glued all over him.
I keep saying... An AT that can't even function unless mobs are autistic and can only concentrate on the tanker... or there's a full time controller locking everything down that moves.... is gimped.
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I haven't argued against that, but I have to say that the blasters on the teams I've been on (both tanking and playing a Kheldian) just haven't died that often. Yes, they do die more often than my Peacebringer, but my Peacebringer is noticeably less squishy than they are.
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Why? the tanker can function without the blaster. the controller can function without the blaster. Every AT can benefit from the powers of the others but they can also stand alone in almost any situation. kinda [censored] up if you ask me. Get right down to it blasters are the most replaceable AT in the game. For the most part all they provide is damage. Everyone deals damage. Blasters deal solid damage.... but when balanced against their fragility and lack of utility blasters need OBSCENE damage.
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I somehow doubt we'd get the missions done as quickly as we do if it weren't for having two-three blasters at any given time. I am not arguing that it's fair that blasters are the weakest AT. I do not think that things are as doomy and gloomy as some like to say.
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Ahhhh there's the rub.
I barely play my scrapper teamed. I use him for solo purposes and helping sgmates deal with archvillans. He's the "I don't want to be bothered with a team toon" The other 3 characters that I actively play are geared towards teaming. but they're not scrappers. 2 defenders and a fire/ss tank.
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I'm just now rejoining this lack of communication in progress, and I imagine that there are other posts that already addressed this.
If you play your scrapper solo, then of COURSE you don't have to reposition often. All of the mobs are either charging you, or standing nice and still while shooting you at range. Additionally, the light-population spawn of a solo hero's instance mission implies that you really don't have many targets to chase after.
Your personal truths are incorrectly bleeding over into situations where they do not apply. Kali and Rooftop not only are correct in their assertions, too, but they're going about expressing them in an appropriate manner.
Geee, am I chopped liver?
I didn't say I ONLY used him for solo purposes. read the post. and I never said I NEVER team with him. There's been PLENTY of times when I've herded for blasters.... and stood there killing while blasters help mow mobs down...
And I STILL don't agree with your assertion that scrappers have to move more. sorry.
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So yes a Fire Blaster would have to position himself more than an Energy Blaster.
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A good energy blaster is moving constantly as well. Power burst has a short range, you need to work in a melee attack if you dont want your DPS to be abysmal, but you cant afford to stay at these ranges the whole time, even if knockback didnt change the range on you anyway. Of you chose to use energy torrent it needs different positioning again.
In the higher level game every blaster has to move or they will get hammered with the cone attacks mobs like the nems are throwing around.
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But you can still get alot more mobs in the area of Fire Breath than you can with other Scrapper cone attacks. Closest I can think of that compares is Eviscerate, and it's a pale shadow of Fire Breath at that.
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Spines AoE attacks are comparable in area to blaster AoE. Even with the smaller AoEs however all a scrapper has to do is aggro a some mobs run around a corner and almost all of them will pile into your AoE.
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Kali and Rooftop not only are correct in their assertions, too, but they're going about expressing them in an appropriate manner.
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Kali is merely saying that scrappers have to move, and on team they do have to move a little. Still not as much as blasters however. Rooftop is simply out to lunch You cant play an eng blaster well an not move. Knockback alone makes it impossible even if you didnt have to work with at least 4 distinct position requirements. The only way you can even remotely come close to playing without moving as an eng blaster is to do nothing but cycle power bolt and power blast, and the DPS for that is horrible.
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just shows that I don't buy into the scrappers have to move more bit.
[/ QUOTE ] All primaries and secondaries have different modes.
DM/SR requires constant...and I mean constant repositioning. As RR points out, Shadow Maul's cone has the width of a thimble..and is about as deep. Soul Drain and Dark Consumption require a keen eye and lots of footwork to maximize effect. The difference between hitting 1 mob and 3 can be life and death.
As for /SR. The fewer toggles we run the better. This means the more mobs you can keep in melee, the better you'll do. Let a boss alone and he'll resort to Ranged...or even worse AoE. Most importantly, /SR is on a time limit. Endurance efficiency is very important. A /Regen can afford to be wasteful with attacks.
Sorry, your limted experience with MA/Inv does not even begin to qualify you with the tactical requirements of scrappers in combat. MA has ONE AoE and no cone attacks. All the other sets have more than that. yeah...fighting +0's...who cares what you do. Fighting +3's..and especially +4's in your 30's requires some rigorous tactical execution.
EDIT:
I think the debate here is one of perception. DM requires very precise small movement positioning. Playing my blaster, I move more in terms of distance, but my positioning doesn't need to be nearly as precisie. Nor am I even as remotely affected by knockback attacks. Energy Torrent has nearly killed my scrapper on many occassion...go to hit Dark Consumption and ET knocks them all out of range just before I hit the button. God that is so frickin annoying.
ET should trigger an "Accept" button for everyone on the team. It doesn't fire unless everyone agrees it should fire. God I hate that power.
The other factor is a lot of blasters move out of habit, not necessity. The most effective blasters my defender has encountered are the ones that stay put except for an occasional moving for an AoE. I see more get killed from happy feet. But this is very defender/heal dependent. If defenders are busy sniping...blasters die. If see a Dark sniping...I'm going to run away too.
Oddly enough, I'd say our larger-area-effect blasts actually end up being MORE of a danger to us.
If a Scrapper wings six mobs with his PBAoE, good and well.
If I rake six mobs with Frost Breath (barring a nicely packed group around a tank, a good shot), in the average combat every single one of those mobs can faceplant me inside 3 hits.
Six mobs. Three hits. No real defenses, other than outright killing them. Oops. If it's a well packed group, I can hit far more. Pray I don't get their attention doing so. Oddly enough, dropping a few and wounding the others tend to get the others to pay MUCH more attention to me...
Ask any Blaster how many bad words he uses seeing a group only wounded by your best shot- and returning fire.