[ QUOTE ]
Im clueless, Im sorry but you are spouting irrelevant garbage and you have the nerve to call me clueless? Read what I said again and perhaps get yourself a clue. It does not matter why a tank is out damaging a blaster. If it ever happens its broken plain and simple. We know what tanks out damage blasters you idiot that does not make it right.
[/ QUOTE ] lol....so your contention is that no matter the situation, the build, the player skill involved, no AT but Blaster should top the Punisher list?
Hahahahahaha.
Come on! You can't see how another AT doing more damage than a blaster under optimal conditions for the blaster is unbalanced? Then I guess their is no further point in bothering to talk to you.
I though you were interested in sincere discussion, you just want to preserve the status quo.
[ QUOTE ]
Something to consider, if we aren't the Kings of damage (the whole reason I wanted to be a blaster, to output insane amounts of damage that dwarf the other ATs, period. If I find out now that another AT does more damage then I do that means not only did I make an uninformed choice, but I was lied to by every description the devs put out on the blaster AT until now) then what is our role on a team?
[/ QUOTE ] I agree, and I have also previously agreed that expectation management is a critical element in perceived satisfaction. I do agree that the game has led me to believe that blasters are the kings of damage.
I think the unproven reality is that blasters are still the kings of damage, but with gap narrowing at higher lvls...you feel like more like the Supervisors/Leads of Damage instead of Kings. Yes. I accept you can feel unsatisfied and the devs are responsible. Once again, a toon should feel their power increase in an RPG.
But I'm pointing out it may not be possible to restore that feeling of "King" without upping your damage unreasonably in relation to the current mobs. Blaster "fun" and usefulness needs a new definition after 30 unless we are talking about an across the game damage nerf/mob hp increase. Something that they tried and repealed.
I'm all in favor of blasters being fun. I have one.
[ QUOTE ]
Come on! You can't see how another AT doing more damage than a blaster under optimal conditions for the blaster is unbalanced? Then I guess their is no further point in bothering to talk to you.
I though you were interested in sincere discussion, you just want to preserve the status quo.
[/ QUOTE ] For like the sixteenth time...where is this true?
Optimal conditions for the blaster are dumpster full of an infinite number of held mobs. Is there some power that does more damage than Nova at damage cap?
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Come on! You can't see how another AT doing more damage than a blaster under optimal conditions for the blaster is unbalanced? Then I guess their is no further point in bothering to talk to you.
I though you were interested in sincere discussion, you just want to preserve the status quo.
[/ QUOTE ] For like the sixteenth time...where is this true?
Optimal conditions for the blaster are dumpster full of an infinite number of held mobs. Is there some power that does more damage than Nova at damage cap?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, okay, I guess I misunderstood you somewhere along the line. Must have been my bad. Guess I really did do a strawman there.
[ QUOTE ]
As a scrapper, my life is not really at risk. The solution is to up the damage by mobs so that scrappers need to kill them a lot more quickly than before....but people didn't like that.
As a scrapper, I might get around to killing the boss...I might just work on these minions first. The bosses aren't really that dangerous higher lvls. The solution is to make bosses deadly as all hell so scrappers focused on them immediately, welcomed the help from any blasters, and left the minions and the Lt's to the blasters....but people didn't like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because bumping every-damn-thing under the sun to provide Scrappers a bit of pucker factor was wiping every-damn-one else out. (Except Tankers of course.) After posting [censored] like this I hereby revoke your privilege to throw words like "clueless" around and/or generally denigrate other posters' intelligence levels.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Come on! You can't see how another AT doing more damage than a blaster under optimal conditions for the blaster is unbalanced? Then I guess their is no further point in bothering to talk to you.
I though you were interested in sincere discussion, you just want to preserve the status quo.
[/ QUOTE ] For like the sixteenth time...where is this true?
Optimal conditions for the blaster are dumpster full of an infinite number of held mobs. Is there some power that does more damage than Nova at damage cap?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, okay, I guess I misunderstood you somewhere along the line. Must have been my bad. Guess I really did do a strawman there.
[/ QUOTE ]Actually, someone will undoubtely say Spin at damage cap.
The next question is if this is true. What are the white minion damage caps for Spin and Nova. What about Spin and Inferno? What about...etc.
But again...as a blaster, I'm not concerned that someone is outdamaging me, I am concerned with whether my damage is even needed.
I can tell you as lvl 37 scrapper. Seems like most Inv/SS or EM tanks out do me in arresting speed. Do I feel encroached on? Eh. I only get annoyed when they get scrapper lock on a boss and refuse to assist squishies.
[ QUOTE ]
so your contention is that no matter the situation, the build, the player skill involved, no AT but Blaster should top the Punisher list?
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you trying to imply that scrappers tankers and controllers top these lists because of their superior skill, because as someone who has played all four to high levels the only one that comes close to blasters in skill requirement are controllers.
[ QUOTE ]
Optimal conditions for the blaster are dumpster full of an infinite number of held mobs. Is there some power that does more damage than Nova at damage cap?
[/ QUOTE ]
A fire tankers Burn does 60% of Novas damage per use and can be used 1600% more often. It can also be used twice in the time it takes for a blaster to even start recovering end from a nova. Over the long run its doing 10 times the damage Nova does under these circumstances, care to try again?
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As a scrapper, my life is not really at risk. The solution is to up the damage by mobs so that scrappers need to kill them a lot more quickly than before....but people didn't like that.
As a scrapper, I might get around to killing the boss...I might just work on these minions first. The bosses aren't really that dangerous higher lvls. The solution is to make bosses deadly as all hell so scrappers focused on them immediately, welcomed the help from any blasters, and left the minions and the Lt's to the blasters....but people didn't like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because bumping every-damn-thing under the sun to provide Scrappers a bit of pucker factor was wiping every-damn-one else out. (Except Tankers of course.) After posting [censored] like this I hereby revoke your privilege to throw words like "clueless" around and/or generally denigrate other posters' intelligence levels.
[/ QUOTE ]Before you have a heart seizure at the thought of killer bosses and Lt's. I didn't say it was the right solution. I said people didn't like it.
The point was that solving the problem is not trivial. Some things that might make blasters more needed for damage have unwanted/unacceptable negative consequences.
I am hereby repossessing my privileges. Pfffffft!
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I am hereby repossessing my privileges. Pfffffft!
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Sorry. Your privileges are still revoked. You didn't say that "one of the possible solutions is..." or "one of the attempted solutions was...". You proclaimed the solution to be increasing mob strength. Not bringing Scrappers in-line with the "world" they're playing in. Not even bringing non-Scrappers in-line with what Scrappers can do. You proclaimed the solution was to increase mob strength. And when people had a problem with this solution, a solution that was fine for Scrappers yet kicked the rest of us in the yam-bag, it was their fault for not having the keen grasp of gaming dynamics that you have.
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You proclaimed the solution to be increasing mob strength. Not bringing Scrappers in-line with the "world" they're playing in. Not even bringing non-Scrappers in-line with what Scrappers can do. You proclaimed the solution was to increase mob strength. And when people had a problem with this solution, a solution that was fine for Scrappers yet kicked the rest of us in the yam-bag, it was their fault for not having the keen grasp of gaming dynamics that you have.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interestingly the reason for this comes pretty clear with the recent problems they had in the test environment. The purple patch wasnt being applied to character damage so it was actually possible to kill +7 mobs effectively. Other purple patch elements like acc were still in place. In this environment scrappers were still blowing through large numbers of +7 mobs.
IOW the only thing keeping scrappers from killing really high level mobs is the purple patch. Make every mob 3 levels higher and the scrappers and probably the tankers will not even notice, since it isnt the difficulty of the mobs that keep them from taking on higher level mobs its the soft cap of the purple patch.
Everyone else who isnt bumping into the purple patch is going to be hurt but the ATs like tank and scrapper that are bumping into it take a big hit.
If you want to trade posts...
First off, it wasn't fine for scrappers. It got me killed by even lvl bosses. It put a huge premium on Stamina...which I don't have. I remember doing mission on Invinc and blowing through a whole tray in of insp by the third spawn. I don't use inpirations on Live. I am convinced they upped the accuracy of bosses and Lt's and I got slapped around.
No one said the changes were fine. I said they solved the problem of making blaster damage unnecessary on teams. I didn't say it was the best solution, I didn't say it was the only solution. So you're off base in trying to turn my post into something it's not.
And FYI...some blasters liked the increase in minion HPS because it also came with more XP. I recall a specific post by a blaster who pointed out the change ended up giving him more xp/hour as he had tested the difference on live and test at the time.
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Not bringing Scrappers in-line with the "world" they're playing in.
[/ QUOTE ] I've long said scrappers were overpowererd compared to the mobs we face. That train left while you were still in bed.
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Not even bringing non-Scrappers in-line with what Scrappers can do.
[/ QUOTE ] Outside of PvP I don't subscribe to this type of approach to the game. I don't care what tankers can do. I don't care what pet controllers can do as long as I feel like I'm useful, have a unique role, and have the tools to do my job.
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And when people had a problem with this solution, a solution that was fine for Scrappers yet kicked the rest of us in the yam-bag, it was their fault for not having the keen grasp of gaming dynamics that you have.
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what you are referring to. They yanked the all the changes but the Boss changes. The bosses changes were exactly in line with States professed philosohpy that bosses should only be soloable by certain builds and highly skilled players. They repealed it, and rightly so, because you can't get rid of missions. Mediocre or casual players were stuck with misisons they couldn't complete and couldn't get rid off.
Sorry Ohms, you lack the credentials to yank my privileges.
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First off, it wasn't fine for scrappers. It got me killed by even lvl bosses.
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Shrug, my regain scrapper didnt even have IH yet and I forgot about the changes to bosses until someone mentioned them 3 days after they went live even though I have killed at least a dozen mission bosses.
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Outside of PvP I don't subscribe to this type of approach to the game. I don't care what tankers can do. I don't care what pet controllers can do as long as I feel like I'm useful, have a unique role, and have the tools to do my job.
[/ QUOTE ]
You realize you are contradicting yourself dont you? If your ATs role is damage and you are playing with a fire tank and fire controller you are not going to feel useful because they will not even notice the damage you bring to the team. You may have a role but it isnt unique and you will not be the one performing it and you cant even begin to quantify the lack without referencing these other ATs.
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Not bringing Scrappers in-line with the "world" they're playing in.
[/ QUOTE ] I've long said scrappers were overpowererd compared to the mobs we face. That train left while you were still in bed.
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Fine, let's not worry about addressing Blaster issues. Let's just nerf the hell out of Scrappers instead. You've got me convinced.
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Concern, if you want to improve the fate of blasters, you need to address this problem instead of ignoring it. You have to recognize that the balance you are thinking of is the wrong one. There must be "balance" between the heroes and the mobs....not between the Heroes (PvP notwithstanding). None of your suggestions (haven't seen them all) seem to acknowledge this. How do we keep the average team from being TOTALLY overpowering? Upping blaster damage and giving them mez and defense is simply going to exacerbate this problem.
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Mieux, it is clear taht you have not looked at my suggestions. I would love for you to point out how my suggestions make a team or a blaster overpowered. You go ahead and do that.
Now on the the next really important part that I am going to quote.
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You have to recognize that the balance you are thinking of is the wrong one. There must be "balance" between the heroes and the mobs....not between the Heroes (PvP notwithstanding).
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Your telling this to the guy whom when I2 was being banged around on the test server suggested balanceing the entire game by limiting enhancements. Thereby lowering the players ability to deviate from the original norms that were balanced by the devs. Your telling me that I have lost sight of PvE balance when I am the only person besides a few others pushing for Hammidon Enhancements to be balanced in both PvE and PvP.
Sorry, when it comes to who is looking to balance the game as a whole you will have a very hard time finding one more commited to that goal than me. You on the other hand Mieux have shown that you can't even take the time to look up one of the posts from 2 months of posts that go into detail how other classes outdamage blasters.
Last point before I forget about you mieux is that the blaster nukes do not balance the blaster class nor do they make the blaster the king of damage. You are taking a power that basically can kill minions in one shot when the blaster could have killed them in two with his normal AoE and believeing that the loss of all the endurance and the long recharge time make this power something turns a blaster into a damage monster?
Maybe for herding but herding was never the focus of this game and it damn well should not be the focus for blasters. After reading your posts your not even worth responding too as you clearly say "Theres a problem, but I am not sure if there is a problem so don't say there is one." You either believe that Blasters are the kings of damage and have something to back up that Statement or you think they are not the kings of damage in which case you can take a look at the numerous suggestions to improve them and critique them.
Better yet though, you should seriously look to how you are playing scrappers in the lower levels. An easier time leveling I have not had. I went out and took a scrapper to level 12 just to see if it was more difficult than a blaster. Must have been all that time I spent playing as a blaster because my DM/Invul [censored] the mobs he went up against. Maybe it was just me. Then again maybe you have no idea what you are talking about.
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ieux, it is clear taht you have not looked at my suggestions. I would love for you to point out how my suggestions make a team or a blaster overpowered. You go ahead and do that.
[/ QUOTE ] i looked at your suggestions for blasters on the other thread and I found them borderline ridiculous. You uniformely want everything imporved without a single concession in power. Melee attacks that work at 20ft...hahahahaha.
That reads like someone who is out of touch with reality and only cares about making Blasters beyond uber.
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suggested balanceing the entire game by limiting enhancements.
[/ QUOTE ] limiting availability of enhancments does not balance the game. It creates loot. You have to limit the effectiveness of them...but the current structure of TO's, DO's, and SO's, makes that difficult.
[ QUOTE ]
You on the other hand Mieux have shown that you can't even take the time to look up one of the posts from 2 months of posts that go into detail how other classes outdamage blasters.
[/ QUOTE ] When a red name comes on and says that we ran 100 team missions for 20 different lvl ranges and all 6 blaster primaries got outdamaged everytime, then come back to me. Until then it is propoganda. My blaster kills so much friggin faster than my scrapper at the same lvl, it's not even funny. In PvP, I can survive alphas from Scrappers. I've been totally worked by Energy and AR blasters in PvP. Their ability to keep hitting me while I run is incredibily effective. Go check the kills of blasters in PvP. They flat dominate every other AT, i'm talking double-digit domination.
The issue which I think does deserve some exploration is the ability to deliver that damage on teams is largely dependent on your teammates. If Tankers don't tank, which many of them don't, and defenders/controllers won't heal, which some seem to think is antithetical, they hamstring blasters. I've gotten my defender killed using Psychic Scream with no Tanker. With a tanker, my blaster is golden. Without... The fact is that blasters were made to be dependent on AT's doing their AT expected jobs in teams. To the extent that players eschew those roles, it hurts blasters most of all. Watching some defender lining up a snipe while my blasters is getting wailed on is largely perturbing.
There may also be issues with aggro for some sets like Fire. It occurs to me that maybe the DoT of fire my over ride a Taunt delivered after the initial blast. I'd have to test this to be sure. But to be honest I've not had mobs pulled off my Tank by blasters. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying that the devs should look into it and see if it is a matter of circumstances or coding.
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blaster nukes do not balance the blaster class nor do they make the blaster the king of damage.
[/ QUOTE ] No one said they balanced the set, nor did I say that Nova made blasters the king of damage. Things you infer are not things that I have implied.
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"Theres a problem, but I am not sure if there is a problem so don't say there is one."
[/ QUOTE ] If that's what you took away from my post, then I can't help you, we aren't speaking the same language.
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You either believe that Blasters are the kings of damage
[/ QUOTE ] My enjoyment of blasters does not in any way depend on blasters possessing the mantle of damage kings. I've already told you what I think is the criteria....
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in which case you can take a look at the numerous suggestions to improve them and critique them.
[/ QUOTE ] My issue with blasters is not the powers...it's the missions. I'm sick of straight damage being the answer to nearly every problem. Why can't the fact that the damage is "ranged" as opposed to "melee" have some real significance in the game? I think the devs have already acknowledge that the missions need more variety. I just have to have the patience for them to provide it.
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An easier time leveling I have not had.
[/ QUOTE ] Funny, my Ice/El blaster did not die until like lvl 12. Being able to two and three shots a mob and then run is a world of difference when facing groups like the Tsoo and the Vahz. My Claws/Regen died so many friggin times I got disgusted and quit playing him for awhile. But so what? I don't play my blaster and expect it to ber like my scrapper.
Three Statesman posts in the blaster forums, and all three of them are filled with talk about what a scrapper can/can't do. Super sad.
Stop talking about the damage caps: no one cares. Neither class is going to hit it without 400 fulcrum shifts.
Instead of bickering about scrappers like children, what you should be doing is verbally hitting States on the damned nose with a six-slotted rolled up newspaper for his "melee attacks are fine" garbage. Yes, ONE melee attack is fine, not SIX. A heavy damage attack like TF is fine and good: A low damage melee attack like frozen fists is nothing short of retarded.
Here's a hint: until those minor melee attacks are replaced, blasters aren't fixed.
I'd be happy with three melee attacks per Secondary: one early, one medium, one heavy. Currently, apart from Devices, those secondaries have anywhere from four melee attacks to seven melee attacks. Ditch some of 'em. Blappers will likely complain, but odds are they should be playing Scrappers instead if they want to melee.
Fill the rest of the Secondary with stuff that makes us better ranged combatants, like Build Up, Aim, Conserve Power, etc. Add in some powers that enable us to effectively deal with aggro so when we snipe a mob his friends don't drop us with the alpha strike. Suddenly, we don't NEED the melee attacks so much--the mobs die before they get into melee range, and we aren't dying instantly in the return fire. The aggro mitigation means that we're a touch harder to chain-mez by the enemy mobs (since ideally we nailed the mezzers with our opening salvo).
That alone might fix blasters, but we'd probably appreciate having our ranged equalized a bit too. Stop letting minions with pistols outrange our snipes and instead give our attacks identical range to theirs. City of Blasters saw us outranging everything. Now everything outranges us. There HAS to be a happy medium, one where their range and our range are the same. Hover-sniping now entails some risk, but the risk is not stupid lottery odds like it is now.
And as for our damage, we do plenty now, if we live long enough to hit more than one or two attacks. Scrappers get criticals, which is awesome for them. Give us that nifty unresistable 30% that we're kicking around in the arena and now we've got something that makes us awesome too. Maybe include a tiny, cumulative -resist on our attacks that means once we start hitting, the damage snowballs up some. Leave the caps as is, if you insist that the range is a defense--after all, if all of the changes this post suggests go through, range might actually BE an okay defense.
It's nice that you want to compare our damage to tankers and scrappers. How about the damage ability of controllers with an army of pets, or some defender builds that can, through self-buffs and enemy debuffs, outdamage us without breaking a sweat? If you're gonna haul us out of this pit, make sure we're at least on a par with the rad/rad offenders. Test and compare with ALL ATs, and make sure if you're comparing a blaster to another AT that the other AT is built for offense. If we're the damage kings from range, then it should be harder for controllers and defenders to outdamage us, especially since many of them get significant aggro-management, defense, and healing abilities along with their ranged attack capability.
So there's my 2 influence on the idea. It will be buried by more bitter ranting and reflexive accusations soon enough, and likely will be utterly missed and forgotten in the frenzy...but I needed to get it out. I play this game to feel heroic, and I'm an altoholic who can emphatically say that blasters don't feel very heroic as things stand.
I really wish we didn't have to even refer to the whole scrappers thing. Unfortunately, in the *few* cases we kept quiet about them and tried to focus on how to better ourselves in general rather than in comparison, one came in on their own to back-talk and tried to put "them's nerfin-words" in our mouths.
[ QUOTE ]
i looked at your suggestions for blasters on the other thread and I found them borderline ridiculous. You uniformely want everything imporved without a single concession in power. Melee attacks that work at 20ft...hahahahaha.
That reads like someone who is out of touch with reality and only cares about making Blasters beyond uber.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tell me Mieux, what concession did scrappers make when they got criticals? What concession did tankers make when they got punchvoke and the new taunt? Not a damn one.
Why should blasters concede anything when they are not performing at their role, shouldn't the devs make a change like they did with scrappers and tanker to make them fit their role?
Sounds like you are more out of touch with the game than I am.
Concern while Miluex may go overboard the general thought he has rings true man, if you where to get all the things you listed changed with Blasters they would be too uber.
Which is not to say that any one fo them or even a few would be bad its just all of them would be too much.
While I do agree blasters need something I am for a single pet to mitiagate aggro and a single damage resistance power of the blasters choice replacing the (generally considered lamest melle power in thier secondarys.)
I.E. Ice blaster with a Frost golem and resistance to ice at a 20-30% base in his secondarys.
I am not for mez protection personally as I remeber mezzin to be a major weakness in comics for blaster types...
think Johnny storm after being hit with water (knock back) or Cyclops after being locked up in a steel mask by magneto.
The 20 foot melee range idea while effective would be if nothing else lame looking so I hope that one atleast does not get implemented.
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Three Statesman posts in the blaster forums, and all three of them are filled with talk about what a scrapper can/can't do. Super sad.
Stop talking about the damage caps: no one cares. Neither class is going to hit it without 400 fulcrum shifts.
Instead of bickering about scrappers like children, what you should be doing is verbally hitting States on the damned nose with a six-slotted rolled up newspaper for his "melee attacks are fine" garbage. Yes, ONE melee attack is fine, not SIX. A heavy damage attack like TF is fine and good: A low damage melee attack like frozen fists is nothing short of retarded.
Here's a hint: until those minor melee attacks are replaced, blasters aren't fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those "low damage" melee attacks still do more damage than some of the primary blasts.
What is supposed to differentiate Scrapper and Blaster Damage? Scrappers already do more single target damage when you factor in criticals + the fact they do it safer and have less down time.
Is it AOEs? Energy, Ice and Electricity are not AOE blasters. They are single target. They have AOEs but they arent as powerful as say Fire who is AOE. AR has AOE and its pretty good but thats 2 of the 5 that could be considered AOE. The final nuke doesn't justify it because of its high cost and in Inferno and Nova its danger factor. Blizzard is more situational than even them. Full Auto and Thunderous Blast have more utility. I woudl not shed a tear if they made Nova and Inferno Ranged but brought it in line with FA and TB.
Fact is as an Energy/Energy blaster to compete as a single target killer with a scrapper I have to use my melee attacks. I liek using them its fun but many don't and they shouldnt be forced to use them just to be damage kings this AT was originally set up to be.
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Somewhere along the line, blasters got hung up with who does the "most" damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
you did read the description of a blaster in the manual, on the website, and when installing the game right? By definition, blasters are supposed to do the most damage. We've been "hung up" on this since launch, because it is why we wanted to play this AT, it is what this AT was supposed to be, and frankly, its not.
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You mean those things that provide limited view and an even more limited damage arc, that have a door that if anything wanted to melee you it would casually stroll though, putting it out of line of sight until it actually got into melee range, at which point you're trapped in the room with it also.
Yeah big advantage...
[/ QUOTE ] Well, I'm curious if the enemy would be able to path its way in to the bunker. I'm not saying that using these would solve everyone's problems. I'm saying the missions don't create enough situations which allow blasters to feel like their ranged damage is a decided advantage.