Fallen Heroes, Villain Goals, and Factions My Way
By
ansetsuken,
Posted on: 2004-11-08 17:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The motivations for a villain, which I think is a good idea, shouldn't be tied to their ability/origin. Like Tal_N said, Freakshow are technological/science based, but like to cause chaos.
How a villain gets their powers might be different from their motivations to be villainous.
I don't particularly like the 'Power' motivation you have, as you've categorized it. I don't see why it would have to be through magic only.
And what about the unethical pursuit of knowledge (magical and scientific)? Dr Frankenstein and perhaps Doctor Octavius?
I think it would be good if our characters could choose a villainous motivation, though. Good thinkin'. 
I like your ideas, Fishwan. A nice overview concept that runs parallel to the hero concepts, plus seems to use existing unqiue-to-CoH Exemplar systems to allow heroes to fall into villainy.
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When it comes to the freakshow faction they are technology based however they have little or no interest in money.
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then why are they selling speakers in brickstown? listen to some of the freakshow dialogue. they take their role in the paragon black market.
seriously though people. what is wrong with playing the new expansion when it comes out? what's so hard about that? you bought a game about superheroes. if you made a villain, then you made a poor financial decision. the villain game comes out in 2005. it's like you went to the store and wanted pie. they were out of pie so you bought cake and took it home. now you're all screaming that the store is somehow obligated to transform your cake into a pie.
shut up already! play the game when it comes out.
PvP hounds: chill out! you won't be able to pwn on day one. build your character, follow their pvp content as it's intended.
alleged Rpers: delete your characters and use the name for your villain. you can post all the little story developments in your livejournal or wherever you seem interesting, and your audience can catch an earful. if you feel that you HAVE to be able to trade in your level 50 character for a level 50 villain then get honest with yourself. Roleplaying is not your motive if that's the case, it's powergaming.
continuity nerd: it has happened in comics. on very frigging rare instance and it's always a plot device to either kill off a hero or a temporary situation. so you want to get true to the books? your hero suffers permanent death a month after your fall from grace. you may be resurrected in 4 years when a new editor's staff takes over. or you get to be a villain for a half hour and then the story wraps up and you seek counseling. Once again, the continuity nerds only seek to try and justify their self interest. and weakly so.
I agree with Tal_N. I like the idea of have Motivation types instead of Origin types - it's an interesting parallel to the fact that Villain ATs will be different from Hero ATs. But trying to shoehorn Motivations into the existing Origins seems like overdoing it and counterproductive.
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Face it -- any crime in Paragon City is going to be organized crime. The disorganized kind just doesn't last long. How is an average supercriminal to get away with the most minor crime in a city where Sister Psyche can read minds?
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Preposterous.
1) "Realism". Sure, Sister P is fighting crime all the time. But can she really scan every mind in the city, constantly, for villainous behavior? Can she snap her fingers and send a SWAT team anywhere in the city at any time? Obviously not, since there 9000 Hellions in Atlas Park right now, for crying out loud. We have to assume that her powers are limited. And for every heroic Sister Psyche, there is a villainous Mind Mantis (dibs on the name!) obstructing her abilities and generally making life hard for nice psychics everywhere.
2) "Comic Book Realism", which is more important here. It is perfectly OK for "real realism" to be thrown out the window if it makes for a good comic story (or game). Two writers across the hall from each other at (insert big comic company of your choice) can write two totally contradictory stories in the same universe and have them both published. Nerds will attack the inconsistencies, and the writers may try to fuse it all together later, but continuity doesn't matter if the stories are great regardless.
Loner villains are a MUST. It is OK if, in COV, low level villains have the opportunity to run missions for organized crime syndicates. But if the assumed goal for ALL supervillains is to "impress the big boys", well, that sucks. Villains by their natures are arrogant and combative. Evil sows the seeds of its own destruction. All the great comic villain teams are constantly fighting, splitting up, and re-forming again. I have no problem with their being 5 big syndicates or whatever that my villain characters can work with (work with, not for, except at first when I'm weak). But most villains hate authority, and I am hoping that there will be lots of opportunities for missions I do for MYSELF. Bad guys use one another as pawns all the time, but if I spend all my time running errands for Villain Corps or the Malfeasance Phalanx, I will be sorely disappointed and will not feel like a real supervillain.
(Note that COH does a great job of making the "slave to the system" idiom very transparent. We are working for the good of the city, but it really feels like we are taking care of everything ourselves most of the time. Heroes have contacts, Villains can have informants (as opposed to crime bosses that they report to) - I don't see a problem.)
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For one, in the context of a story, would Lex Luthor give Superman eight or nine chances to become Evil? I doubt it; Lex isn't a fool. If Superman is given one big, end-all opportunity to betray Good and eight or nine times in a row, he fails to do so, why would he continue to get second chances?
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Well, by the same token, you should only get one chance, ever, to save the Terra Volta reactor, and all chat in COH should be monitored such that no one is ever capable of communicating to anyone else about how they failed to save the reactor and the city was destroyed, and once you fail, your account should automatically be cancelled because, for you, the city was destroyed.
It's a simple question of Realism vs. Playability. Realism is only a good thing when it doesn't step on Playability's toes.
Of course, if the plotline can be shaken out to take mission failures into account and branch a storyline that way, I'm all for it, as long as no rewards are taken permanently out of any player's grasp. To use your example, Lex may never let Supe work for him after a failure, but Mr. Mind's Monster Society of Evil might snap him (and his Task Force) up, after giving them a totally different test.
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Destruction: Someone who doesn't wish to rule the world, but rid the entire population. The ultimate evil. Someone who doesn't need minions, but has them because the unworthy underlings serve you in some dire hope that you won't destroy them as well.
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I think that this overlaps a heck of a lot with the OP's Chaos goal. Actually, I think Destruction is a better name, though - it covers a wider range of individual motivations.
Another thing about fallen heroes is that they always get like 10 times as strong the moment they become evil.(ex: Parallax)
If I were superman I'd just rob banks in my lead suit.(i.e. lead blocks kryponite, weakness solved)
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The organization of crime in Paragon, in my dream model, would be around Goals. Goals for Villains are like Origins for Heroes. Instead of Magic, Mutation, Science, Technology and Natural, the Villains will pick from Power, Chaos, Ego, Money, and Domination.
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I like "Motivations" instead of "Goals". Motivations are broader.
Power
A natural. What villain doesn't want to be all-powerful? Linking it with Magic seems bogus though. There are many, many means to achieving personal power (as opposed to personal influence) in a superhero universe.
Chaos
Seems too narrow. As stated above, I think it should be broadened into Destruction. Whether a given villain really wants to destroy the universe, destroy the government, or just kill lots of people and break lots of windows would be up to the individual player to decide. Again, linking it with Mutation - why?
Ego
Overlaps way way too much with Power. Junk it.
Money
Seems a little too narrow. I'd say broaden it out into Greed or Avarice or something. Some highfalutin' villains might want to own the greatest works of art in the world. Others will want to own magic artifacts (though usually as levers to gain personal Power or to Dominate others, etc.) But good, good. Technology fits pretty well with this one, actually, but only for certain villain types. Then again, robots do not want money more than anyone else.
Domination
Of course, another natural. This is "Power" in the sense of influence. A keeper, definitely.
What could we replace Ego with if junked? I agree that there should be five Goals/Motivations to parallel COH's five origins. I don't know. It seems like there should be maybe a 'catch-all' one, but Other sounds lame. I guess Insanity might be good, since I'm having a hard time coming up with any other rational reasons to be a criminal but 'the dog told me to do it', mentioned above, should definitely be an option.
Actually, it just occurred to me why you would want to link Goals with Origins - for Fallen Heroes. A Technology hero would automatically become a Money villain.
Cute, but I say nah. The reasons for falling will vary from hero to hero. No reason that a Magic hero wouldn't turn to crime simply to get rich. A Fallen Hero should simply choose his Goal (/Motivation!).
Let me say it plainly before I respond to anything: I'm not selling the idea that all Money villains must be Technology villains and vice-versa. Frankly, I think the idea that Villains need an explanation for their powers is pointless. Villains do what they do no matter how their powers originated.
Heroes can pick an Origin but their motivation is purely an RP mechanic. Villains are different; I think they should pick a motivation -- because what they mean to achieve will dictate the kind of missions they get -- but their origin is purely up to their individual player. Read on and I will explain more fully.
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An anarchist who believes the only way for people to be free is to topple the "establishment", a religious fanatic who wants to "cleanse" the city, an iconoclast who wants to make everyone equal by tearing down the most established heroes, an eco-terrorist who wants to stop pollution by any means necessary.
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Eco-Terrorist, Anarchist = Chaos. They wish to topple the established powers without regard to the consequences for human life or society. In the Eco-Terrorist case, they believe the world would be better off in a natural, unspoiled state, no matter how many people will starve and die in the absence of industry, mechanized agriculture, and petroleum fuels. The Anarchist believes people will be more free without the presence of government, military order, borders, laws, and security; he does not care whether destroying these things makes life better or more tolerable, so long as it is "free" by his definition.
Religious Fanatic, Iconoclast = Domination. They wish to re-make the world according to their own philosophy. However, I note there are no churches, synagogues, mosques, or temples in Paragon, so I hesitate to make villains of the first and only Paragon holy men.
I'm not sure how specific Villain ideology should get, given that every ideology will have to have a full set of missions and contacts. It would probably be as things are with Hero contacts: you meet Jill Pastor in Skyway, who is with the FCC, and she has specific missions about broadcasting devices, and the missions she gives you all have this take-back-the-airwaves angle. For a Chaos villain, one contact may be Crystal Beth the eco-terrorist from Greedpeace, who sends you off to destroy the Elwood Blues Memorial Spraypaint Factory, and other eco-related capers.
To have one full set of contacts and storylines devoted only to eco-terrorism would be a huge amount of missions, and one wonders if it would be worth the time to develop seventy or eighty specific full sets of contacts and story arcs; how different would they truly be?
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Why move them immediately? Why can't they be in the hero mix still? Um.. lying.. .yo!
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Yes, your idea is good fodder for a story, but it makes a lousy videogame. For one, the Hero powersets and the Villain powersets will likely not be exact duplicates, so some changeover period is required. Also, I would love to hear your method of programming that would enable the game client to understand 'lying.' Me, I can think of about a hundred different ways to exploit the opportunity to be a Villain right in the heart of Paragon, especially if one only has to push a few buttons to become Evil, and suddenly one is a level 50 Villain although, and this is the part you appear to like, nobody knows you're evil, nor can they do anything to you until you decide it's time for the Big Reveal. Let's see... a perfect disguise, unlimited ambush/first-strike capability... no, I don't think it would work. Call me crazy, but there are far too many ways to exploit this.
It reads well as a story, yes. As a game mechanic, it needs work.
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Jeff Kuroi suggested: Destruction: Someone who doesn't wish to rule the world, but rid the entire population. The ultimate evil.
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In my opinion, this is entirely unworkable for several reasons, both on a story level and on a game mechanic level.
One, if there were someone bent on destroying all life on the planet, this would perforce include all villains, too. Such a character would be a threat to everyone and would draw equal wrath from villains and heroes. Lord Recluse and Statesman would fight side-by-side to beat you to a bloody mush, and they would kill you dead, really properly dead, no barmy crossed fingers, no click to go to the hospital, dead.
Two, the game mechanics would be completely out of line with this philosophy. Killing everyone in the game a) violates consensual PVP, b) includes killing stores, trainers, and contacts, and c) introduces the concept of 'killing' to a game that currently doesn't have it. Villains are arrested. Heroes are defeated. Nobody dies.
Last, any possible less-than-complete way to implement the 'kill everyone' philosophy of Bad Guys would raise the question, "Hey, why can't I kill everyone? Ripoff!" Like it or not, a no-rules character simply can't fit into a videogame of this nature. This is only my opinion, of course; I am not a developer.
Better just stick with a Chaos villain.
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Vengeance is an obvious motivation for such characters, but there are others--obsession with a particular person, a never-ending search for the ultimate challenge, or even the well-being of a loved one who can only be saved by leading a life of crime. Such characters may join (or be forced into) a criminal organization, but only as a means to their own ends.
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I agree. This would be an excellent motivation. However, barring each player creating his own list of contacts and missions specific to his RP background, I'm not sure how this could be implemented on a mass scale. Everyone's revenge backstory will be different. Something like this, as I said in the previous post, is probably best left up to the individual player.
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Careful, your secret identity is showing, Fishwa -- I mean, Lord Recluse.
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I have no idea what you're talking about. I wish to make it completely obvious, I am not Fishwa... wait, I am not Lord Recluse. And I haven't looked at his notes. Recently. 
ScrapHeap, I appreciate your comments. The way City of Heroes is currently constructed, there is absolutely no gray area with any Hero, in method or means or motivation. Although one is free to role-play a Punisher or a Batman, there are no specific game mechanics that allow us to blow away innocent bystanders or torture villains or throw out the rulebook. I think this is deliberate, because inside every gray area you will find griefers and exploiters. (I'm not suggesting that all people playing Punisher or Batman would be a griefer or an exploiter, only that such loopholes are a breeding ground for unfair play.)
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Tal_N says, One problem with those ideas of likening origins to goals for the villains. When it comes to the freakshow faction they are technology based however they have little or no interest in money. Above all else they're interested in causing Chaos. Which as your post states is clearly opposed to the Money one which you branded under Technology.
Drawing lines like that simply doesn't work.
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You're absolutely right. I did describe the 5th Column, in a later response, to show that they have the same goal of Domination, but they use some variety of means to achieve this (technology, natural, and whatever the werewolves are). I didn't want to give the impression that I envisioned an ironclad rule that all Money villains used Technology or that all Chaos villains were Mutants, because then the converse must be true, and I would be force-feeding a motivation to every player.
I got the five Goals by extrapolating the five Origins into what motivations I thought were most appropriate, but by no means should they be considered a lock for what kind of powers the villain must have. Mutants should be allowed to be Domination villains and take over the world. And Naturals should be allowed to wreak havoc. Technology villains could well be Egoists, and so on.
The Goals are somewhat analogous to Origins in that they are a pentagon of power (sort of like the Magic: The Gathering cards, now that I think about it), each side opposed by two others and somewhat supported by two beside it. Natural and Technology are directly opposite of Mutation, so I had to have origins that were similarly opposite (and apposite), and I chose Domination and Money to oppose Chaos.
As I said, I can't think of any specific game mechanic for villains that would make it necessary for them to choose an origin story or explanation for their powers. A Magic hero will be sent on missions to retrieve artifacts, rescue fortune tellers, etc; a Science hero will be sent on science missions. What role would a villiain's origin possibly play?
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Destruction: Someone who doesn't wish to rule the world, but rid the entire population. The ultimate evil. Someone who doesn't need minions, but has them because the unworthy underlings serve you in some dire hope that you won't destroy them as well.
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I think that this overlaps a heck of a lot with the OP's Chaos goal. Actually, I think Destruction is a better name, though - it covers a wider range of individual motivations.
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I feel rather the opposite -- Chaos can contain Destruction but not necessarily the other way around. A villain interested in Chaos might want to destroy everything, or he may just want things to be a little disorganized so that he can benefit from it. "Misdirection" as an aspect of Chaos.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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For a Chaos villain, one contact may be Crystal Beth the eco-terrorist from Greedpeace, who sends you off to destroy the Elwood Blues Memorial Spraypaint Factory, and other eco-related capers.
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I just want to say that I love how you strung together twisted puns and pop culture references to make your point. Massive style points!
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Oniongum said:
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shut up already! play the game when it comes out.
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(flame)Some one find out they're ugly and alone in the world with bad breath and VD this morning?
That's not a productive post. The others here a putting a lot of thought into this. Did you read the pleasant request in the original post not to flame the writer just criticise his ideas? You could return the courtesy or shut up yourself.(/flame)
Here are my thots on the subject.
Motivation instead of origin.
Wont work, origin is there solely for a basis for different Enhancements and role play.
And the enhancements follow along those lines and make sense. What would a lvl 30 Damage increasing Money SO be? Doesnt work. Motivation is just part of your character background.
I think that changing sides would be awesome! There should be hefty penalty for changing sides.
I thot of a couple things along this line.
If the hero and villain power sets arent identical or close (all sets the same, some different powers) I cant see changing working. (you were a claws regen mutant scrapper as a good guy now youre a Machine gun / Power armour Thug?) It wouldnt make sense to have different powers for good and bad guys, hopefully more come out with CoV tho!
I think when you change sides you shouldnt change level or lose anything, you should be stuck at the same level until you figure stuff out. Maybe some kind of level loss wouldnt be bad tho. If the power sets are slightly different, maybe you need to get enuf xp to gain say 50% of what is required for the next level to switch each power that isnt in the villain set. The offending powers would be a funny colour, and every time you reach this conversion level you can change one of those powers over. I have a feeling that the power sets will be the same, with perhaps different power levels? ie the Underminer (OK, best I could thin of for a villain defender) wouldnt heal as wel as a defender but does more damage.
One thing I would like to see, different levels of hero/villain. Not power levels, level of good/evil. I could see 6 different categories: Registered Hero/Vigilante/Mercenary/Beast/Criminal/Public Enemy
The Registered Hero: Must abide by the rules of the City, fully supported by law enforcement and the Government(Justice League) All current heroes in CoH.
The Vigilante: Fights against crime, using less than legal methods, decides himself who is bad. Some law enforcers want to arrest him, some support him. (Batman, Punisher) None in CoH.
The Mercenary: Doesnt care about right or wrong, only about getting paid. Usually wanted by the law for some past illegal doing, may be tolerated when doing good. (Hired for support during a major attack) (Cant think of any examples for this) Are Sky Raiders in this category?
The Beast: A super powered beast with the intellect of an animal. Sometimes does good, sometimes does bad. (Hulk . . . I think?) Law enforcement is trying to stop these guys from wrecking the city, even if there may be good results from their carnage.
The Criminal: Not necessarily evil, just goes about getting what he wants by illegal methods. Does only petty crimes (relatively, theft as opposed to poisoning the nations water supply) so is not a high priority for the Law, but definitely on the other side. (The Rhino) Hellions, Skulls.
The Public Enemy: Due to insanity, beast mentality, or an agenda at odds with the ruling government these villains cause mass destruction, wantonly kill, plot over throws of the government and generally dress the best. (Magneto, Dr Doom, Dr Octopus, Lex Luthor(Maybe Lex is an upper class Criminal, dont know enuf to say)
Id love to see this, with some kind of hero/villain points determining your category, but at best I guess it would have to be in CoH2.
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evil is not the word i would use.
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DIfferently Moralled 
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(flame)Some one find out they're ugly and alone in the world with bad breath and VD this morning?
That's not a productive post. The others here a putting a lot of thought into this. Did you read the pleasant request in the original post not to flame the writer just criticise his ideas? You could return the courtesy or shut up yourself.(/flame)
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i apologize for the tone. i was pretty frustrated at the time. fallen heroes topics pop onto this forum numerous times daily. i find the whole notion pretty preposterous in an online gaming context. people seem pretty cavalier in demanding some shortcut past the effort and content of what promises to be a very fun and exciting game. despite the flippant tone of my post, i feel my points are valid. Hero to villain conversions wouldn't support the direction cryptic has been taking but rather just be a blatant motion to appease a vocal and misguided portion of the player base.
that aside, i like the notion of motivation serving as the "race" category for the villain game just as origin does for heroes.
the classifications you've (EvGen_88) listed are interesting but they don't really jive with the game's theme so far. CoH is a world of four color heroics more than grey-morality modern comics. They picked a simple and cosistent thematic and stuck to it, which in my opinion is a good decision. to paraphrase Statesman (or possibly another dev) in an early interview: "a game trying to be too many things rarely excells at any of them" filling paragon city with all the themes you describe would muddle the feel in my opinion.
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And the enhancements follow along those lines and make sense. What would a lvl 30 Damage increasing Money SO be? Doesnt work.
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If you insist. However, the Enhancement loot as it now is in City of Heroes is pretty damn silly too, if you ask me. How is a Mutation person supposed to get... um, more mutated, simply because he feels like it? He's going to get born again into an even more mutated shape? How come anybody can't use Technology: shouldn't that be freely available? How can a Natural hero just walk up and buy months of karate training in the middle of a one-hour timed mission? How come there's an accuracy Enhancement called "Flash Grenades" but I never see them throw any?
There's really no justifiable story reason to have Enhancements, period; they're in the game to make powers more customizable and to add a reward/loot/benefit system, nothing more. Name them anything, whatever you like.
Glad I didn't put you on my ignore OnionGum, you seem pretty rational after all, I understand frustration at stuff. I understand the 4 colour wourld view too. Even in my 6 level scheme I can think of guys who don't really fit too. Just though, I would drop dead if Cryptic were to add in some major game changing thing like this anyway. Not that I doubt them, I think they rock! I just think it's a whole engine rewrite.
As for enhancements not really meshing, ya, you're right, I only really looked at a few. It's just that the idea of something related to your origin makes sense, while one related to your motivation doesn't.
Flash Bang = better accuracy, OK, no actual flash bang . . little goofy
Roll of 100s = better accuracy. huh?!?!?
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AH! but "the Blob" (depending on which version of the movie I guess (NO, not the Marvel character, the oozing pseudo alive creature) was consuming as part of its nature, and perceived as evil, and "good" people, heroes if you will, battled against it. Its possible to have a human form bad guy with a blob attitude, consuming or doing its natural "thing". And yes, I would not mind playing a Villain who carries out that style of "evil". So I guess I'm agreeing with you because the slug/blob thought is very close, but I'm disagreeing only that I think it is and should be possible to play an origin/motivation like that. I consume because my physical state causes me to grow, and do such things, not because I benefit from it.
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Hunger/survival is a valid motivation. That would be an interesting character and a good reason why some "villain" is destroying "randomly".
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If you insist. However, the Enhancement loot as it now is in City of Heroes is pretty damn silly too, if you ask me.
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Yeah, I've always wondered about that. I mean, if my main (a magic blaster) was really carrying around all of these charms my stealth would be negated by all of the jingling. Circle of Thorns hate me 'cause I'm always after their Lucky Charms.
Interesting.
I'd replace Ego with...
Extremism is the philosiphy that no action is verboten if the ends are justified, embodied by terorists, religious cursaders and megalomaniacs. The truely extream disregard all private and social convention in the persuit of their greater cause. Extreamism adjoins Chaos and Money and opposes Domination and Power. Extreamism contacs would typically be of the para-military sort, counter agents to Indigo and Crimson, zelots of all kinds, also supliers of black market goods.
Just as a point, Anarchy is not Chaos.
Common misconception, though.
On Justice:
Aufheben, level 50 MA/SR Natural Scrapper
Ansetsuken, level 39 MA/SR Natural Stalker
Member of the Experts of Justice / Chaos Crew
One problem with those ideas of likening origins to goals for the villains. When it comes to the freakshow faction they are technology based however they have little or no interest in money. Above all else they're interested in causing Chaos. Which as your post states is clearly opposed to the Money one which you branded under Technology.
Drawing lines like that simply doesn't work.