KS consequences, taught by: Knights of Paragon
By
Cowman,
Posted on: 2004-05-02 23:17 in Roleplaying
Lemae reads the story in the newspaper about the 'tragic' deaths that occured in Perez Park, then tossed it into the trashcan smiling behind her mask.
'Fools. Deserved just what they had coming to them, that is the problem with these so-called 'heroes' nowadays. Either they are too weak to finish the job off of an enemy that could strike again, claiming 'mercy'... or they are too weak to do the job at all. Relying on another's support when there is no gurantee of the support only shows their own incompetence. I just hope the Knights didn't aid them to the hospital, fools should stay dead.'
So, let me get this straight. A monster is rampaging. Innocents are in danger. Additional heroes step in, which would surely bring an even faster end to a menace that is threatening innocents.
But your pride and need for personal glory overwhelms you, and you decide to let a group of people who COULD have saved who knows how many lives be KILLED.
Typical.
What we do isn't about getting your name in the paper. It's about saving lives.
I stick to the shadows for a reason
[ QUOTE ]
So, let me get this straight. A monster is rampaging. Innocents are in danger. Additional heroes step in, which would surely bring an even faster end to a menace that is threatening innocents.
But your pride and need for personal glory overwhelms you, and you decide to let a group of people who COULD have saved who knows how many lives be KILLED.
[/ QUOTE ]
In a word... yes. I take necessary risks to help these civilians, so why shouldnt I expect a little notoriety in return?
Why do I think this way? Is it greed? Possibly. I must admit that the appeal of being recognized by citizens on the street is quite fulfilling. But I believe my ideals of what this so-called City of Heroes could become are far more complex than that.
Basically, those weak-bodied heroes had it coming, and I was just catalyzing the process. Thinning out the pack, if you will. What makes a hero strong? By pushing themselves to the limit. They may hate me now, but the citizens will thank me later for the stronger heroes that come to fill the fallens place.
Life is sometimes not about calculated risks. I have had to gamble my health, my honor away at some points, but in the end, I have become stronger than I ever imagined possible.
I have been pushed to my limits, and I have survived.
Kudos to you and your team Gamble. While the other heroes may have been honestly trying to help at first. Once you and your team asked them to back off - it was their heroic duty to listen. Since they chose to ignore that, they deserve what they got.
CURS3D K40S
I believe you did the right thing. Each of us should stand and fall on our own strengths (strength of character included in this list). Having been properly warned, the other team should have backed off, or if they desired to persist taken on the beast themselves (which is exactly what you facilitated there).
We all desire to improve the common good for the citizens of Paragon City, but we are also human (at least in the most general sense) and it is human to enjoy the recognition we receive that comes from doing good deeds in the free exercise our own powers.
A sharp lesson for that group, but a necessary one. Perhaps next time they will reconsider interfering, pain is an efficient teacher.
-Gravotus (unaffiliated at present)
Knights of Paragon? You just made your group look horrible, so you know...
I am not going to associate my self with a group that cares more about getting in the papers than they do about protecting Paragon and it's peoples.
Clowns of Paragon, I hope you become infamous for what you really are and really stand for.
[ QUOTE ]
In a word... yes. I take necessary risks to help these civilians, so why shouldnt I expect a little notoriety in return?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is precisely why the statesman was against the Freedom Corps coming to Paragon City.
Why shouldnt you? Because thats not what being a hero is about. Being a hero is about doing whats right. Its about not giving a crap if youre loved my millions, or hunted like an animal. We do what we do because it needs to be done, and that should be all the reason we need.
You call yourselves Knights. A knight should know that humility is a Virtue.
Besides which, your duty is to safeguard lives, even if you dont necessarily like that person. You left those heroes to die because you were afraid you wouldnt get into the paper. You sicken me.
[ QUOTE ]
Why do I think this way? Is it greed? Possibly. I must admit that the appeal of being recognized by citizens on the street is quite fulfilling. But I believe my ideals of what this so-called City of Heroes could become are far more complex than that.
Basically, those weak-bodied heroes had it coming, and I was just catalyzing the process. Thinning out the pack, if you will. What makes a hero strong? By pushing themselves to the limit. They may hate me now, but the citizens will thank me later for the stronger heroes that come to fill the fallens place.
Life is sometimes not about calculated risks. I have had to gamble my health, my honor away at some points, but in the end, I have become stronger than I ever imagined possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
This sounds all too familiar. Taken from the Freedom Phalanxs history files:
Many of the super villains that arose during the late forties and early fifties were actually veteran heroes who had fallen on hard times. While lauded across the land as heroes, for some the pride of patriotism was not reward enough. They had come to see themselves not as protectors of the common man, but as superior beings. And as superior beings these greedy souls felt the world owed them more than anyone else. In fact, they felt it owed them whatever they could take for themselves, by whatever means they chose.
Your priorities are completely out of whack. I have a feeling youre going to be trouble. And thats why Im going to be watching you. I will NOT let you turn Paragon into a City of Villains
[ QUOTE ]
I believe you did the right thing. Each of us should stand and fall on our own strengths (strength of character included in this list). Having been properly warned, the other team should have backed off, or if they desired to persist taken on the beast themselves (which is exactly what you facilitated there).
We all desire to improve the common good for the citizens of Paragon City, but we are also human (at least in the most general sense) and it is human to enjoy the recognition we receive that comes from doing good deeds in the free exercise our own powers.
A sharp lesson for that group, but a necessary one. Perhaps next time they will reconsider interfering, pain is an efficient teacher.
-Gravotus (unaffiliated at present)
[/ QUOTE ]
This is why the Watchmen don't stick around after our battles.
After reading the recent replies, I think both points of view have merit (hopefully this doesn't sound too much like fence-sitting) but I think the distinction here is between game play and role play perspectives.
From a game play aspect I see Gamble's point. We desire to discourage certain "anti-social" behaviors in our fellow players with the hope that everyone follows the commonly accepted rules of courtesy, fair play, etc. I'm sure everyone has multiple stories of "jerky" players (omitting stronger language here) who break the usual rules of custom and since there is no one else to enforce them (i.e. the system or Devs as it were) we take it upon ourselves as players to do so. I'm guessing that was what was happening here with Gamble (feel free to correct me).
From an RP standpoint, no decent, law abiding, and above all "good" hero would allow someone to die just to prove a point (Wraith's assertion I believe), and acting as such certainly could start one down that slippery slope...
So I suppose the question I would ask is: which dynamic do we follow- game play or role play?
I'm curious what others in the forum think.
The low-down is thus - in Gamble's place, I woulda done the same thing. Why? 'Cuz it's just not polite to jones in on someone else's fight. Unless the KoP wanted the help, the other group shouldn't have tried to capitalize on the situation. It's not glory-hounding, it's simple semantics.
Oh, and those other heroes didn't buy the farm. If they were good boys and girls, they got their medi-patches, and got whisked away to the local medical center. So don't make it sound like Gamble went and turned a simple rout into a slaughter; those other chappies survived. Maybe now, they'll understand not to take advantage of other people.
Props, Gamble.
"The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."
- Mark Twain, Notebook, 1898
and
- Bart Allen, aka Impulse/Kid Flash/The Flash, Teen Titans v.3, #6
OOC: First of all thanks for all the support from peeps like Mackie_killian, Paladiene, XXuicsus and Set77. Its good to know that there are people that sympathize with our actions.
This is directed to those that are not role-playing, and are being serious about what they have said. I think we all need to be reintroduced the fact that we are role-playing here. And just because you have some prefabricated image of what a hero should be, that doesnt mean I have to fit the template. If every hero was an upstanding, selfless, patriotic model of all that is good, role-playing would become very boring IMO.
Also, I am not this much of a jackass in real life (although some would disagree.) This is just my way of role-playing this character. I happen to have another character that is very happy go lucky, just in case someone decides to "tear me a new one" based on my personality.
IC: Hmm, I seem to have stirred up quite the ruckus. Let me direct each person statements:
Dark_Avatar
[ QUOTE ]
Knights of Paragon? You just made your group look horrible, so you know...
[/ QUOTE ]
Is it just me, or do people actually agree with what we have done?
And dont worry kiddo; you wont have to worry about associating with us.
WraithTDK
[ QUOTE ]
Why shouldnt you? Because thats not what being a hero is about. Being a hero is about doing whats right. Its about not giving a crap if youre loved my millions, or hunted like an animal. We do what we do because it needs to be done, and that should be all the reason we need.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe thats what it means to be a hero in this town to you, but not to me. Where were the heroes when I needed them the most? About 3 months too late to do any good. I had to use my own strength to break free from my Freakshow captors after being stabbed, slashed, and used as a guinea pig for their experimental drugs. And thats nothing any 15-year-old boy should go through. My mission is simple: to make sure nothing of that sort happens to another child, another elderly person, another mother of four. One way to do that is make sure that the heroes of the future are fit to fulfill that role. Fitness in this case not only implies physical prowess, but also intelligence, both of which the invading group was lacking.
[ QUOTE ]
You call yourselves Knights. A knight should know that humility is a Virtue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Humility is a virtue, however to be a Knight implies nothing about following a specific "code of honor." All our knighthood implies is that we share a common ideal of mutual assistance.
And I believe it was quite virtuous of us to warn the invaders to leave our claim alone. We gave them proper warning, and they understood the consequences of their actions. 'Nuff said there.
The weak are prey for the strong. It is simple laws of nature.
This is why we must have strong leaders in this world, and not no foolish politicians that we have now who can't keep control over their own city.
Thumbing through the newspaper, Aleria scoffs at the "news" of infighting among the cities so-called heroes. Thinly vieled as it was, they were fighting for prestige, something she still didn't understand. Money, power, land, that she got. This still baffled her.
"Humans, they can't work together or even respect each other's trophy kills. To think I was called barbaric when I came here."
Tossing the newspaper on the ground, she notices a police officer approach her with a frown. She snarls and bares her teeth, causing him to back off. The stranded princess walks off and ignores the gaping looks of passer-by's. Shaking his head he mutters something about retiring to a nice, safe city like L.A.
[ QUOTE ]
After reading the recent replies, I think both points of view have merit (hopefully this doesn't sound too much like fence-sitting) but I think the distinction here is between game play and role play perspectives.
From a game play aspect I see Gamble's point. We desire to discourage certain "anti-social" behaviors in our fellow players with the hope that everyone follows the commonly accepted rules of courtesy, fair play, etc. I'm sure everyone has multiple stories of "jerky" players (omitting stronger language here) who break the usual rules of custom and since there is no one else to enforce them (i.e. the system or Devs as it were) we take it upon ourselves as players to do so. I'm guessing that was what was happening here with Gamble (feel free to correct me).
From an RP standpoint, no decent, law abiding, and above all "good" hero would allow someone to die just to prove a point (Wraith's assertion I believe), and acting as such certainly could start one down that slippery slope...
So I suppose the question I would ask is: which dynamic do we follow- game play or role play?
I'm curious what others in the forum think.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of character post:
I think that people make WAY too big a deal about kill-stealing, considering the way the XP system works (you still GET the XP for the damage you've DONE, and while the amount DOES get lowered by the interference, so does the risk, which is what you're PAYING for the XP).
From a gaming standpoint, it's silly. But if you're GOING to get mad about it? At least accept the fact that it's purely a gaming issue. Because from a roleplaying/RP standpoint, it just doesn't make ANY sense at all.
[ QUOTE ]
The low-down is thus - in Gamble's place, I woulda done the same thing. Why? 'Cuz it's just not polite to jones in on someone else's fight. Unless the KoP wanted the help, the other group shouldn't have tried to capitalize on the situation. It's not glory-hounding, it's simple semantics.
Oh, and those other heroes didn't buy the farm. If they were good boys and girls, they got their medi-patches, and got whisked away to the local medical center. So don't make it sound like Gamble went and turned a simple rout into a slaughter; those other chappies survived. Maybe now, they'll understand not to take advantage of other people.
Props, Gamble.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taking advantage of people? THEY WERE FIGHTING EVIL. Lives were at stake. We should WELCOME assistance from ANYONE. The more fighting, the faster the fight, the fewer innocents are gonna wind up injured or dead.
A HERO puts the safety of the citizens of his city before his own pride and need for personal glory.
Since we are on a streak of OOC here, id like to get a short word in. Although we had the Kraken held, our group was actually doing much less damage than the invading group. If I had held him indefinetly, they would have got a majority of the experience. And even though role playing can be fun, holding a Kraken for 5 minutes for a fruitless act is a bit pointless in my book.
Oh, and its also not too fun.
And please Wraith, stop bashing my role play style. I think ive established my characters posiition on many issues, so perhaps you would be kind enough to accept a different style of hero play. Just a thought.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I am not this much of a jackass in real life (although some would disagree.) This is just my way of role-playing this character. I happen to have another character that is very happy go lucky, just in case someone decides to "tear me a new one" based on my personality.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooc: Yea, just so we're clear, I'm not actually this pissed off in real-life. Matthew Young just thinks it's silly. Night Raven is pissed.
Back to in-character
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe thats what it means to be a hero in this town to you, but not to me. Where were the heroes when I needed them the most? About 3 months too late to do any good. I had to use my own strength to break free from my Freakshow captors after being stabbed, slashed, and used as a guinea pig for their experimental drugs. And thats nothing any 15-year-old boy should go through. My mission is simple: to make sure nothing of that sort happens to another child, another elderly person, another mother of four. One way to do that is make sure that the heroes of the future are fit to fulfill that role. Fitness in this case not only implies physical prowess, but also intelligence, both of which the invading group was lacking.
[/ QUOTE ]
O.k., lets turn this back on you. What if heroes DID come to your rescue? What if there WAS a team fighting their way into where you were being held, not knowing you were kidnapped, but clearing out a criminals. What if a different group of heroes came in and started fighting, and that first group decided theres no glory here, lets go? You would have spent even longer being experimented on.
If your goal is to ensure that no one ever has to go through what you did, then you shouldnt care who helps. Those other heroes cared more about getting the job done than their own safety. You left them to their fate.
[ QUOTE ]
Humility is a virtue, however to be a Knight implies nothing about following a specific "code of honor." All our knighthood implies is that we share a common ideal of mutual assistance.
And I believe it was quite virtuous of us to warn the invaders to leave our claim alone. We gave them proper warning, and they understood the consequences of their actions. 'Nuff said there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your claim.
Youre more mercenary than hero. Just what we need.
I think the mis-understanding here is that we are looking at it from two completely different viewpoints. Some of us here are looking at is in the RP sense (After all this IS the RP topic forum), while others are looking at it in the "Gamer" sense.
Breaking the two down is simple. First if you look at it from the RP sense it was a pretty nasty thing to do. Granted some hero's RP themselves that way, it would still be a nasty thing to do to let other hero's die just so you can prove a point. Like Interupting people apprently (Or so the NPCs would bark at me), it's not heroic at all.
But then on the flip side, or the gamer POV, this was totaly justified and fair. Remember all you RPers, though its a wonderful and great game and a fun one to RP in, it's still an Massive Mulitplayer Online Game, one that you get higher and more skills from earining "XP" from "Kills". THIS is how you advance you're character, and THIS is how we all in the end will play the game.
And before you shout and scream that I am totaly wrong let me ask you this: How many of you would even bother to spend an hour or 3 of you're time online in Atlas Park killing ONLY GREY mobs just for the fact that you are "Helping the city out" and doing you're "Job".
In the end its a game, thats how it breaks down.
Was letting the other team die rude? Yes. Was it deserved? Everybody has their opinion. But people, if the other team ninja-killed a boss and got all of YOUR hard earned credit for it, and I'm not talking about the RP "Newspaper" credit, but the XP credit, wouldn't YOU be upset? What if you needed those 500xp to level, only to have it stolen from you by a group that took the kill?
I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy.
Kill stealing isn't heroic people. Honestly helping out others is. But when somebody says back off, you should. Then if they die trying, you can shrug you're shoulders and say "Well, it was a heroic attempt".
The key thing here, IN MY OPINION, was the fact that it was stated that the group in question actually told the other group to back off. If this did not happen, then it would probably be a different story.
But then again, thats my opinion, which is worth 2 influence.
Gamer's POV, then RP POV. Don't confuse the two people.
And if you want to know my IC opinion:
Rickshaw wouldn't care.
OOC:
Just a note, but not everyone wants to play a superman clone in this game, and to be honest it'd be pretty darn boring if we did. Many heroes have other motivations that they fight for than truth, justice and the american way. Honestly, saying the only reason people get angry about KSing is the xp is rather insulting and narrow minded. Many heroes in comics were much more prideful and pig headed than the above example, so don't be so quick to judge.
IC:
Don't scoff at them just because they wanted the glory of their fight, all heroes have a price whether it be some warm fuzzy feeling they get for helping someone or cold hard cash. Just be thankful their price was cheap. If you enforced your standards on all the heroes protecting this city, Paragon would be nothing but a smouldering ruin. High ideals don't win battles, numbers, strategy and pure tenacity do.
As for the greenhorns that got smoked, they'll survive alot longer in Paragon if they learn to listen to the guy holding the rock prison together, whether they like what he says or not.
- Jay Winters
[ QUOTE ]
If your goal is to ensure that no one ever has to go through what you did, then you shouldnt care who helps. Those other heroes cared more about getting the job done than their own safety. You left them to their fate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed I did, and I took pleasure knowing that those fallen heroes wouldnt be moving onto larger and more daunting tasks, and possibly risking civilian lives in the process. The key difference here lies in the fact that civilians are defenseless. Heroes have made a conscious choice to put their lives on the line, and if they decide to gamble with Gamble, they will lose, as the fallen heroes have.
Also, the thrill of a child rushing towards me at the end of a Vahzliok cavern, grasping onto my leg as I hold back a defiled Eidolon, is all that I need for an excuse to help citizens. Yes the Kraken was a special case for a little extra publicity, but nothing equals the admiration of people that can truly appreciate what you do for them.
And the Knights are hardly a mercenary group Wraith. We are the closest of friends, and have shared many victories, and a few frightening losses. *Gamble looks to the sky, reminiscing over fallen comrades. Noticing everyone is watching, he stirs himself from his trance, with a stealthy shrug of his shoulder to his cheek*
However, I think it safe to wager that we all believe that we did Paragon a favor by letting these invaders fall.
OOC: and by the way Styiker, my gaming and role playing views are one in the same. Perhaps you would like to "break it down" and read the previous posts to understand where I am coming from.
I had a long response to that reply, but I will just say this out of character.
It's done, they are dead, get over it. His SG can do what they want, you don't like it don't play with them and don't add fuel onto this fire. Congratulations in accomplishing whatever you set out to do in the first place Gamble.
And by the way, there's an R in my name.
OOC: Ok Styiker, got ya, no r.
OOC: Honestly, I was not on a holy quest to bring about such a feud. If this is annoying you so much, then dont reply.
Im sorry your response was short, but please consider that what you had posted was summed up by another earlier, and the fact that you didnt take into consideration the fact that my role play backed up my game play style.
I just wanted everyone to possibly laugh at what had transpired, but obviously I failed for some. Im sorry for trying to add something to these boards with my own prose on a pretty interesting turn of events. Mission: Failed. lesson learned: dont talk on the message boards
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all heroes have a price whether it be some warm fuzzy feeling they get for helping someone or cold hard cash.
[/ QUOTE ]
My reward is the cracked and bloody face of the punk I just crushed.
-Davis Slate
This is a tale of the Knights of Paragon, and their interesting encounter in Perez Park.
The sun spread across the canopy of Perez Park, as Gamble assisted his faithful friends Lokie, Rowan, Kraytus, and Apogee. They were enjoying an easy run through the parks many labyrinths, rinsing its many routes clean of the Vahzilok scourge. Many Eidolons had fallen, but the group had become physically drained from their numerous encounters. We decided to rest upon a hillside, and take in the sights of the park. However, our respite was cut short, for in front of us was the most mammoth of all Hydras, the dreaded Kraken, a towering purple menace which shook the ground with every step it took. The creature, having spotted us, responded with its preprogrammed response: kill. Gamble, seeing the oncoming Kraken, quickly trapped the beast in one of his patented earthen entrapments. Its movement stopped by a torrent of stalagmites, Lokie and Apogee moved into position for the counter attack. Apogee unleashed an onslaught of ranged energy attacks, enraging the trapped creature even more, while the others stood at the ready, waiting for Gamble's next move. Although Gamble is not one to do a large amount of damage to his enemies, he does have one specialty, which is to completely immobilize his opponents. Gamble, with a motion of his fist, summoned forth a block of solidified earth, completely encasing the beast in a sod encrusted coffin. With the beast unable to attack, the team moved in for the kill. With Kraytus barraging the Kraken in a flurry of fists, to Lokie confusing the target with his powers of illusion control, to the controlling of the beasts mind by Rowan, the beast was sure to fall.
To the teams dismay, another group of heroes, seeing an opportunity to capitalize on controlling capacities of the Knights of Paragon, launched their own attack against the Kraken. After repeated being warned by the Knights to step away, the invading party still continued to attack. Gamble, frustrated with the fact that this other group may get the credit for the elimination of the Kraken, he hatched a plan. Reluctantly, he asked his comrades to back away from the Kraken, and watch from afar what he was about to unleash upon the invading squad.
With his teammates out of the beasts range of attack, Gamble released his hold on the beast. The following scene, as the earthen encasement fell off, was horrific, but at the same time unbelievably satisfying to the Knights eyes. The inexperienced invading team was exposed to the might of the Kraken, and they fell. The Kraken, spitting an acidic liquid, caused the hovering team to fall from their airborne perches. One after another, they fell to the might of the Hydra King.
Satisfied with the punishment he had delivered to the invading group, Gamble once again held the beast, and the Knights were able to receive full credit for the defeat of the Kraken.
This is a reminder to all that consider KSing. Be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions.
http://www.people.iup.edu/gpdl/krakenkill.jpg