KS consequences, taught by: Knights of Paragon
By
Cowman,
Posted on: 2004-05-02 23:17 in Roleplaying
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Taking advantage of people? THEY WERE FIGHTING EVIL. Lives were at stake. We should WELCOME assistance from ANYONE. The more fighting, the faster the fight, the fewer innocents are gonna wind up injured or dead.
A HERO puts the safety of the citizens of his city before his own pride and need for personal glory.
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Color me possessive, but when I'm trouncing a thuglet, that bastich is mine until I KO him and let the fuzz cart him off. I get pretty riled when some smart-aleck thinks *I* need help and does the KO'ing for me. Maybe it's that I look like a civvie, or because I'm short, but I can handle myself just fine, and I get pretty pissed when someone jumps in when I obviously have the situation under hand.
The KoP obviously had the control; it's not their fault some uppity Statesman-wannabe punks decided to take the easy way into getting a rep. 'Cuz that's what it looks like to me; KoP had the Kraken, and these other guys wanted the glory the KoP were working for. Sure, lots of heroes get the job done quicker, but not everyone is as nobly-inclined as you, Raven. They may have wanted to help, but Gamb said the chappies ignored the "Hey, we got it!" calls. That smacks of greediness to me, and last I checked, avarice was a sin.
"The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."
- Mark Twain, Notebook, 1898
and
- Bart Allen, aka Impulse/Kid Flash/The Flash, Teen Titans v.3, #6
Ya know Gamble, if you actualy spent the time to read my post you would have noticed I actually didn't put my opinon on the matter in. I presented two sides, my opinion of what was going on in the thread, and that was it.
Boo hoo somebody put it here already. I'll ask you one question: Is it you're name on the credit card that is paying for my game? Because if it isn't, then I can do whatever and post whatever the hell I want...even if it repeats/reinforces what somebody said earlier. BOO HOO. You had to strain you're eyes to read my post.
I actually AGREED with you. YES they deserved to die, YES they got whats comming to them. But YOU I find now are a jerk. You apparently think I had this bug in which I was out to get you when I wasn't. I also don't see you as the "End all god of the forums", so what makes you more special then me?
At least I take the time to spell you're name right and not be such a jerk about it.
I hope if you ever come to Virtue you can sit down and have a nice cup of tea with me. Serious. It would relax you some.
As for my opinion on you're story, it was funny. You're actions towards me afterwords are what ruined it.
Edit: Apologies beforehand for calling you a jerk. Though i don't agree with you in some ways that was harsh. Sorry =/.
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I just wanted everyone to possibly laugh at what had transpired, but obviously I failed for some. Im sorry for trying to add something to these boards with my own prose on a pretty interesting turn of events. Mission: Failed. lesson learned: dont talk on the message boards
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Well, for what it's worth, I thought it was an entertaining read. And from both IC and OOC viewpoints I'd say you did the right thing in my book. Any character of mine would consider someone who horns in where he/she isn't needed to be foolish at best, and if they persisted after being warned off (so as to separate the ones who are just mistaken from those who are doing it on purpose), then it's nothing short of an insult and the act of an honorless individual. (This is particularly the attitude of my main character, who follows his own 'warrior's code', but my others would share it to an extent, just wouldn't put it quite the same way.)
So rock on, I say, and thanks for taking the time to write up an ingame event in an entertaining way, I enjoy reading stories based on ingame events now and then.
Speaking as one who would never shy away from the glory, but would also attempt to "borrow" some of that glory if I was not an original part of it, I have looked at this situation from both viewpoints. Based on my ponderings I would have to come to the definitive conclusion that...
That was f***ing hysterical, man! I mean, they wanted to sweep in and steel your thunder, and you were all like "Oh yeah, let's see how you can handle yourselves if you want this kill!" And they were all like "Ok, we will!" and you were all like "Fine then, go ahead!" and they were all like "We're going!" and you were like "GO!" and they were like "GOING-AAGGHHGHHH..."
Such an enjoyable read. I have to say, that for those of you heroes out there who think it's wrong to "want the glory," I don't think that's what this one is about. Don't get me wrong, now. At first, I was hard pressed to think up a totally rock hard defense for letting the creature go and defeating those guys. I mean, the quicker the beast falls the less innocents die and all that, right? Plus, heroes aren't supposed to be "In It" for the glory and wah wah wah. I've heard it all before...
But look... I learned a long time ago that Heroes are men and woman (well, sometimes figuratively speaking, of course) and we are not Gods or Angels who know right from wrong INFALLIBLY...
The Sly Fox thinks to himself quietly for a moment...
Learning Hero Corps existed... taught me that. I have every respect for the heroes out there who live by a code so strong nothing can break their view of "right" from "wrong." However, being a practiced confidence man, let me illustrate a few points for you all that may have been overlooked...
1.) That Kraken was in Perez Park... um, was it near any citizen in need of aid? By not killing that beast quick, did the good 'ol Knights endanger anyone? Hmmm... can't seem to think of anybody... that beast wasn't even gonna GO anywhere, was it? When's the last time you saw a Kraken in Atlas trying to stomp Ms. Liberty...?
2.) Remember, KoP didn't "let the brave warriors die." They got the s*** kicked out of em, acquired some debt, and went back to the hospital...
Plus think about this, my friends and neighbors. And this is my most important point so I want you listen to me with an open mind.
Paragon City is a dangerous place, nowadays. With so many traps for unwary heroes, especially as we attempt to enter the more difficult and dangerous zones down the road, who's to say if we will all be prepared for the encounter? That said, it's IMPORTANT to teach heroes that it IS dangerous BEFORE they get down the road and suffer horrific damages. Maybe those guys will learn to be more careful from now on. Plus, maybe their lives were even SAVED for the future by getting a wake up call. Who's to say that the tougher villains will find SOME way to disable our health badges? What if we could face permanent death down the road. Heroes, in my opinion, seem far too cocky now. (Ha ha, look who's talking, I know, but it's really just a front...geez, can't believe I'm being so honest here, hope the ladies aren't reading! 
) Heroes also all seem to have this "invincible" complex. I for one want to be prepared for ANY eventuality, even if it is being abandoned by a hero I thought was fighting the same thing I was fighting.
Being prepared for anything is how I survived. The quick to adapt DO survive. I just hope those guys realize the lesson they learned that day...
...All this being said, if it had been ME seeing KoP attack that beast... and well, if I thought I could get some quick practice against such an immobilized behemoth, I probably would have gone in and whacked away too! I never turn down an easy change for "shared" fame, as it were. However, if they had asked me to back off... well... it depends how "scared" of 'em I would have been. However, if I got killed because of what they pulled, I would have laughed at myself, and looked them up for a drink!
In fact, I might just do that later ANYWAY!
Hope I see you before you see me!!
-The Sly Fox
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But then on the flip side, or the gamer POV, this was totaly justified and fair. Remember all you RPers, though its a wonderful and great game and a fun one to RP in, it's still an Massive Mulitplayer Online Game, one that you get higher and more skills from earining "XP" from "Kills". THIS is how you advance you're character, and THIS is how we all in the end will play the game.
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Yea, but you STILL get XP if the other person off the villia. You get an amount equal to how much work you did. You may get less because they helped, but the risk, the effort, and the time spent is also lowered, which is what you GET the XP for. It's not like UO where only the person who offs the thing gets the loot.
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And before you shout and scream that I am totaly wrong let me ask you this: How many of you would even bother to spend an hour or 3 of you're time online in Atlas Park killing ONLY GREY mobs just for the fact that you are "Helping the city out" and doing you're "Job".
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I still wack the level 1's if they're mugging people. I feel guilty if I run past someone screaming for help.
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In the end its a game, thats how it breaks down.
Was letting the other team die rude? Yes. Was it deserved? Everybody has their opinion. But people, if the other team ninja-killed a boss and got all of YOUR hard earned credit for it, and I'm not talking about the RP "Newspaper" credit, but the XP credit, wouldn't YOU be upset?
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Yea, I'd be angry because it would mean they had hacked the game somehow. Because with the current system, I'd still get XP equal to how much work I did.
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What if you needed those 500xp to level, only to have it stolen from you by a group that took the kill?
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I'd still get it. Because I did the most damage. If I didn't, then I wouldn't really have much to whine about, and I'd STILL get XP for doing ANY damage.
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I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy.
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Happens quite a bit. I honestly don't care.
Perspective: it's good for you.
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The key thing here, IN MY OPINION, was the fact that it was stated that the group in question actually told the other group to back off. If this did not happen, then it would probably be a different story.
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Yes, but it was a RP story. If Batman had told Superman to get out of "his city" (as he often does), and then the joker pulled some Kryptonite and had Supes against the ropes, do you think Batman would just leave Superman at his mercy?
OFCOURSE NOT! And why? Because Batman is a HERO. And heroes don't do that.
You avatar frightens me.
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IC:
Don't scoff at them just because they wanted the glory of their fight, all heroes have a price whether it be some warm fuzzy feeling they get for helping someone or cold hard cash.
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The difference is that doing what we do because it needs to be done isn't a motivation that THREATENS anyone. OUR motivations don't lead us to ABANDON a battle while there are still villains rampaging and THREATENING LIVES.
Just be thankful their price was cheap. If you enforced your standards on all the heroes protecting this city, Paragon would be nothing but a smouldering ruin. High ideals don't win battles, numbers, strategy and pure tenacity do. OUR motivations don't cause us to abandon those in need when we don't get our way.
If Paragon wanted that type of hero, we would have paid for the Freedom Corps back when they wanted to be on the city pay roll.
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As for the greenhorns that got smoked, they'll survive alot longer in Paragon if they learn to listen to the guy holding the rock prison together, whether they like what he says or not.
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Yea, those stupid fools, they saw the fabled "Knights of Paragon" and should have KNOWN that they'd TURN TAIL AND RUN on them because they weren't gonna get their name in the papers. :::spits:::
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all heroes have a price whether it be some warm fuzzy feeling they get for helping someone or cold hard cash.
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My reward is the cracked and bloody face of the punk I just crushed.
-Davis Slate
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That's fine. Here's the question though: would you stop BEFORE that face was properly crushed because you didn't think the Paragon City Booster Club was gonna give you a frikin parade?
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Color me possessive, but when I'm trouncing a thuglet, that bastich is mine until I KO him and let the fuzz cart him off. I get pretty riled when some smart-aleck thinks *I* need help and does the KO'ing for me. Maybe it's that I look like a civvie, or because I'm short, but I can handle myself just fine, and I get pretty pissed when someone jumps in when I obviously have the situation under hand.
The KoP obviously had the control; it's not their fault some uppity Statesman-wannabe punks decided to take the easy way into getting a rep. 'Cuz that's what it looks like to me; KoP had the Kraken, and these other guys wanted the glory the KoP were working for. Sure, lots of heroes get the job done quicker, but not everyone is as nobly-inclined as you, Raven. They may have wanted to help, but Gamb said the chappies ignored the "Hey, we got it!" calls. That smacks of greediness to me, and last I checked, avarice was a sin.
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What matters is that the job gets done. HOW its done should be of secondary concern.
Greed, and the need for personal glory is the path to Villainy.
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and we are not Gods or Angels who know right from wrong INFALLIBLY...
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I know a dude with a hammer and a guy with Wings and a flaming sword who are going to kick. Your. Butt.
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Yes, but it was a RP story. If Batman had told Superman to get out of "his city" (as he often does), and then the joker pulled some Kryptonite and had Supes against the ropes, do you think Batman would just leave Superman at his mercy?
OFCOURSE NOT! And why? Because Batman is a HERO. And heroes don't do that.
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I see your point here, but this is a simulation of a comic book through the use of a MMORPG, and as we all KNOW, not all the heroes are as upright and moral as Batman or other comic book good guys. So, with that in mind, I agree with Gamble on this one. It was a humorous post to boot, and I enjoyed it thoroughly.
But nowhere in comic book heaven does a hero follow another hero around and wait until the foe is near death and take the glory (as this happened to me on Freedom). After they followed me for 10 minutes, and would only wait until the opponent was near defeated, I got fed up and went to the Tram station. That loses them every time, hehe.
However, that is not very heroic, even when I told them to back off, I was fine, all in character. They n00bed out on me and started being jerks. Oh well, its unavoidable, but sometimes a lesson is due.
/applaude
(ooc)
Every single day I have to struggle with this. I suspect I'm not alone in finding it very difficult to keep up my roleplay in the face of ill-mannered players. First, the angry side of my brain doesn't work well with the creative side, and second, it's always difficult to stay in character when I'm forced to deal with people who are flagrantly not so.
Has anyone had better results? Any tips or tricks on keeping IC and cool-- no pun intended-- when getting KS'd?
OOC:
Plainly put me me, that was our kill. We had him held and were well past halfway done. It was our member Gamble that had him held, which was the only way that he was going to be beat.
Trust me, when or if you ever face the Kraken, he packs a massive punch. THe key to our eventual victory was Gamble being able to keep him from running amuck and squashing us.
We asked the other group to leave the kill, and they chose not to.
I can't count the number of times that I have been asked ot keep out of another teams way. Now, I ask first before I try to get near another teams kill. Trust me, whether you wish to believe it or not, there is not some great sense of community in Perez Park a lot of the time. People form their teams and that is all they want to allow. Which is fine by me.
So, when we asked the other team to let us have our well-earned kill without their help, they should have backed off. It was asked nicely and more than once. So, we backed off and Gamble let it go. Which it then proceeded to beat the ever living crap out of them. Once that was done, we wnet back to pasting the big lug. And beat it we did.
So, whether you think it was right or wrong, a trophy kill like that was a matter or pride to us. We tried to find it again recently for the rest of our SG to see. SOme of them missed it and were wanting to take a look at the monstrosity that it was, but it was nowhere to be found.
My point is this: If you ask for my help, I will help. If you ask me to back off, I will back off. That is your right to your way of playing the game.
Apogee
So this is roleplaying, eh? Wow. Unimpressed.
Alley
Soliloquy
Every city has a library.
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and we are not Gods or Angels who know right from wrong INFALLIBLY...
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I know a dude with a hammer and a guy with Wings and a flaming sword who are going to kick. Your. Butt.
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Really? I bet I could convince them otherwise. Besides, he can't be an omnipotent God who knows all... and still run around with a hammer smiting enemies and being swept off to the hospital when things don't go right... and while wing-boy can fly, I doubt he's up in heaven everyday sharing a spot of tea with the almighty.
My point is, while you might say "personal glory is the path to villainy," another often traveled path to the same destination is believing you are "better" than the average man in that you are infalliable and only YOU know the true difference between right and wrong.
I'm sorry, my friend, but I've known way too many villains who believed that they weren't in it for the glory at all, but to "make things right for mankind..." Anyone believing "they know best" how to set the rules for EVERYONE is walking a slippery slope...
ooc: I applaud what this team did and believe it takes nothing away from them as RP'ers.
I think whether this group did what they did for fame, rewards, or whatever is irrelevent. The other team was asked to back off and they made the choice not to, so suffered the consequencies of their actions.
Well done.
Today I had a similar experience myself, I had been contracted to deal with an Abborent Rector that was terrorizing the streets of Skyway City, and had found the beast preaching its doomsday prophecies to a small flock of its followers in a fenced off culvert. I knew I couldn't face the beast toe to toe, so instead I lured it away capturing it and its followers in a trap of my caltrops and a well placed smoke grenade.
For many minutes I dodged in and out of the battlefield spreading mayhem and subduing as many of its mutated flunkies as I could manage. My plan was working, my trap was a success, soon only the beast itself remained, defiantly staring at me as it struggled against the tiny robotic caltrops pinning it painfully to the ground. The fight between us was brutal with me barely escaping to tend my wounds and do my best to maintain my sanity given the horrid blasts of mental energy he continued to project when I came to fight him.
It looked as if he was done for, exhausted and still trapped, I knew he could not stand much more of my attacks. Then out of nowhere another 'hero' arrived attacking from the opposite side of the barriers I had put between myself and my prey, his energy blasts threatening to knock the beast loose of my trap.
I yelled for him to stop as I dove behind a barrier barely escaping death after another skirmish against the brute. I could tell he was no match for it alone, just like I would be had I tried to defeat it toe to toe. For the moment he was lucky it was still focused on me, but hiding behind a concrete pillar nursing a nasty cut I knew it would soon notice the new arrival.
I yelled again, telling him it would kill him soon if he didn't desist in his attack, but again he did not listen, pursuing personal glory perhaps? For me it was unimportant if he was trying to steal any glory or not, the beast was almost defeated and I knew at this point regardless of who landed the killing blow my contract would be complete, but my repeated warnings fell on deaf ears.
Three blasts of horrid thoughts burst from the Rector in rapid succession, ripping through the other hero's mind and leaving him a gibbering heap on the ground. I knew there was nothing I could do for him, save try and finish off the brute before it escaped and finished him. However just as I was about to, the hero activated a device on his belt restoring clarity to his mind and unbelievably causing him to rejoin the fight.
All the time he had been pounding away at my target I had failed to notice it being nudged inch by inch out of my trap. His next blast was the final draw. Caltrops flew through the air as the brute's feet ripped free of my trap and he tumbled out in front of me. For a moment I thought I was done for, wounded and without cover there was nothing standing between the hunted becoming the hunter.
However, the beast did not attack me, instead it leapt at the other hero knocking him into unconsciousness with a single blow. I staggered to my feet throwing another barrage of caltrops in a hope to capture the beast once more, but it was too quick and in a single bound it leapt off a nearby wall falling three stories before disappearing into the dark twisting alleys below.
My prey was lost, my contract unfulfilled, my body nearly broken, and the fool at my feet knocked senseless.
For what?
Because he wouldnt listen.
In Gambles situation the fools threatened only to steal some of his glory, but if such single minded heroes are allowed to continue with such a lack of respect for their allies wishes, it can lead to situations such as mine where their foolhardy attitudes lead to a monster escaping back into the streets of a populated area to wreak more havoc and cause more destruction. Its good that Gamble did what he did, these heroes need to learn to listen to their allies, whether they like what they say or not.
You know what? The question is accademic. Perez park is a RESTRICTED zone. There were no civilians in a picnic near by.
Personally, If someone wants to help me make an arrest, it makes my life that much easier, but that's me personally.
Until we get Perez under CONTROL so that people civillians can actually return there, you go there under your own risk. That's why you need security clearance.
Personally, I'm not going to send anyone to the hospital to prove a point, but they knew they would be heading into a dangerous area of the city. When I go into Perez Park I know that I can depend on three people: Myself, the good lord, and Jamison's Whisky.
They knew what they were getting into...
By the way I'm sending around a petition to bulldoze that damn park and pave it over. 75 Starbucks might not be pretty, but neither are 300 wizards doing experiments.
OOC: I don't think from a 'game' standpoint anyone can question what they did. If someone wants to KS from you and they aren't strong enough to do it. Then they die in the process TFB!!!! from the RP perspective - NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL ANYONE ELSE A RIGHT OR WRONG WAY TO RP THEIR CHARACTER!! So by default all IC RP posts are correct. That is the way someone wants to RP their character. Some people wanna be like Superman, some like Lobo, some like Magneto. There is no 'right' way to RP.
IC: Gamble, I and my group Sanity's Edge support your choice! When other 'heroes' fail to listen - they deserve what they get. I constantly try to help others, but often they refuse to listen and get us both killed. That is why I have become increasingly careful of who I team with. I am tired of wreckless Rambo's getting me trips to the hospital.
To all you others - don't tell me or any one else how to be a hero. I didn't ask to be a hero. I didn't ask for powers. I didn't ask to protect this city. And I certainly didn't ask anyones opinion on how to do it!! I am cursed with my 'gift' and will make the best of it, but for those that try to meddle in my affairs - be warned!! Yes I tread a fine line between good and evil - but don't we all. Or are you all really that big of boy scouts? yeah, didn't think so
CURS3D K40S - High Prophet of Sanity's Edge (virtues most insane and tortured supergroup)
(ooc) Ok, here was my mistake... I tried to look at this from a ROLEPLAY stance... which makes since, seeing as it was posted in the roleplay boards...
Anyways, here is the point - He wasn't doing it in roleplay, he was doing it because he was pissed off at someone trying to take his prize kill...
In the thoughts of game mechanics and the way you play the game, maybe what you did is right... but coming here to brag about it wasn't right... If you want it to be taken from a roleplay stance, then in my ROLEPLAY eyes, you were wrong.
I think I finally figured out why KS bugs me so much. It's certainly not the XP loss-- minor, really! But all too often I have to endure the silly claims KS'ers make. You know, how they're always making it sound like they're doing something selfless, heroic, indisputably good for the world. Or worse yet, they argue that they're on your team somehow: like a Robin encroaching a little too eagerly upon my Batman's personal space.
KS is the injury, but it's these crazy excuses that add the insult. I want to find out who started spreading these misconceptions and smack him silly with a nerf bat. Out of character, we all know there's nothing selfless or heroic about kill stealing, and we're NOT on the same team. The only person the kill stealer helps is himself, and the only side he's on is his own. But do the usual excuses hold up in character? Well, let's see.
A conniving opportunist and a dedicated hero see criminals getting taken down by someone else, and the situation is well in hand. The heros who were already there are wearing down a bit, maybe lightly injured, but it's clear they will be victorious.
The dedicated hero moves on, knowing his powers are better put to use stopping the many other crimes out there. Why rescue a citizen who's already being helped, when there are dozens, even hundreds more in dire need? He wishes the other heros well, and maybe he'll throw a buff or a heal, since he can't use those on himself anyway, but otherwise he has more pressing things to do.
The conniving opportunist, on the other hand, seizes the chance to grab credit for a deed he didn't much contribute to. The other heros are just his unwitting meat shields, and he gladly climbs over their backs to get where he's going. All working together? Ha! The loyalty he has toward these other heros ends the minute they're no longer of use to him.
OOC KS = IC opportunism? Now that's congruity. And keep the hands off the tights, kid.
After rereading the thread I am sorry Gamble, you acutally were not the first person to move this beyond rpg. In a rpg sense, I will have nothing to do with your team. From a ooc point I really do not get that upset about KS. This game the real effect of KS is hardly and issue.
OOC:
Obnoxious and rude behavior has a detrimental factor in any game. I don't see anything wrong with what KoP did, if you look at it from a gamers perspective they didn't want to fight the kraken with the other team, they wanted to do it alone. If they just wanted the xp they would have kept fighting regardless. They warned the other team, and they didn't listen. They got what they deserved.
If a team came up and started attacking, and they hadn't warned them before they pulled away that'd be a different story. However, they were under no obligation to keep fighting just because the other team was. You people are making it out that when someone is trying to kill steal you its not only your duty not to get angry, it's your responsibility to make sure they don't get killed by what you were fighting. Doesn't that sound the least bit ludicrous to you?
It doesn't matter whether you find KSing a big deal or not, players do not have a moral responsibility to help those KSing them. They warned them, and I think that was mighty kind of them to do that at all. Many people would have simply left them to their fates without so much as a simple 'please stop'.
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(ooc) Ok, here was my mistake... I tried to look at this from a ROLEPLAY stance... which makes since, seeing as it was posted in the roleplay boards...
Anyways, here is the point - He wasn't doing it in roleplay, he was doing it because he was pissed off at someone trying to take his prize kill...
In the thoughts of game mechanics and the way you play the game, maybe what you did is right... but coming here to brag about it wasn't right... If you want it to be taken from a roleplay stance, then in my ROLEPLAY eyes, you were wrong.
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OOC: Not entirely true. Depends on the type of hero. Take for example the Punisher - he WOULD let a fellow hero die! In fact he has in several points of the series! If someone were RPing a similiar mindset - then they should let the other heroes suffer. I still side by the fact that in a gameplay sense he did the right thing (esp. after they asked the other players to leave). As for the RP aspect - no one but Gamble truly knows how the character is supposed to be played. It is entirely possible that his character really would let other heroes suffer for stepping on his toes. If that is how he chooses to play his character who are we to judge him. Not everyone wants to play a goodie-goodie super dweeb!
Yes, it is possible he let OOC feelings influence this - but it is also possible that he was just RPing his character. Either way, what is done is done. And i'm sure that anyone will think twice next time before helping/KSing any of the Knights of Paragon! Which i'm sure won't bother the Knights at all!
As a leader of the "original" Knights of Paragon, the team that existed on the roleplaying boards of the old CoH site since late 2001 and is now on Virtue, I would like to state that Gramble's team on Justice in not associated with us in any way.
Thevshi
OOC: Well I found it funny-someone tried to KS you while you had it immobolized, you told them to back off, they didn't, they got what they deserved. Don't see why everyone's so touchy about it OOC, IC I can understand.
IC:
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My reward is the cracked and bloody face of the punk I just crushed.
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"Finally! A human I can understand!"
Aleria grins darkly, winking one of her glowing eyes.