magicj

Which would be one reason why you don't just turn PFF on and leave it on. You use it when it's needed.

No PFF in sonic.

PFF is perhaps the most underrated power in the game.

Because teams don't need shields.

Seriously, this talk of "sub-optimal builds" is just wrong. There's not too many things that are more sub-optimal than spending your time doing things the team doesn't need. And if you're spending a significant amount of your time bubbling toons that don't need bubbles, that's what you're doing.

They're definitely not. If you honestly believe that, you should probably play a Cold toon. It has basically the same little bubbles and provides several other nice powers as well.

PFF and dispersion bubble are the strength of FF. Dispersion bubble prevents the team from getting stunned or held. And it does it without the FFer having to constantly spend time passing out powers like CM. PFF provides survivability to the FFer, which let's him continue to do his job when things get rough.

Where FF excels is in difficult situations. The knockback and repel powers which are, quite frankly, terrible in common situations shine when the team aggros too many groups or is just in general getting hit with too much damage. The easiest way to grasp this is to see it in action, so I put together a video of using chaos control in FF. It shows soloing a 7 man team on unyielding using only FF powers, Aid Self, and a resistance shield available to FF ATs as part of their epics. It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gebY_SwaCWA

The little bubbles are nice powers. Nothing great, but no one ever complains about getting a bubble. But, in all honesty, if your toon needs little bubbles to do its job, your toon sucks.

What if no matter how many examples are provided showing you to be wrong, you're going to go on defending your point of view no mater how many improbable scenarios you have to invent to do it?

Look, you want to take the little bubbles on your FFer, go ahead and take them. It's not a big deal. I have them on the main builds of most of my FFers myself. And on the alternate builds for all my FFers who don't have them on the main build. But not taking them doesn't hurt the team. Ever single example of actual game play presented so far demonstrates that, including the original post on this thread where the OP wondered why a player wouldn't take them.

The problem with the math you present is it's not relevant. I've already explained this. It doesn't matter what the stats are on the little bubbles. What matters is what the team needs.

And despite the ridiculous claims being made on this thread in defense of a flawed idea, some how, some way, nearly every team in the game manages to kick <bleep> just fine with no bubbles at all.

And, again, it doesn't matter what you or I say. At the end of the day, teams are looking for healers, not bubblers. They do that because they know darn well they need healers. And they know darn well they don't need bubbles.

And teams ignoring your own personal point of view (which is what the vast majority of them do) doesn't mean they're wrong. Their success in mission after mission, day after day, year after year, demonstrates that conclusively.

It doesn't. It never has. And it never will. If you keep taking mitigated damage, there's a good chance you're going to die. If you keep getting healed, there's a good chance you're going to live. Simple as that.

At some point in a discussion, both sides have had their say and it's time to just agree to disagree. I think we've reached that point. 'Night.

I agree the "healer" debate has been settled. Healers won. By a landslide.

On the other hand, I agree with you that there are other ways to run a team and those ways have their own advantages. That's one of the nice things about this game. And it's the reason I have a "Canonical Build" for all my FFers that includes little bubbles and power boost, even though that build isn't usually needed. In situations where's it's useful, it's extremely useful.

The entire topic of this thread is whether or not FFers should take the little bubbles. If you can't demonstrate improved performance in common situations coming from those bubbles, there's no reason to take them.

Anyway, I do agree with you that pretty much any combination of powers can be used successfully in this game. And that's yet another reason why there's nothing wrong with skipping the little bubbles. And it seems that Paragon Studios also agrees that pretty much any combination of powers will do. If they didn't have that belief, they wouldn't be introducing the "queues" in issue 20 where random collections of players get put on a team together. If I understand the concept correctly, you don't even get to select the AT let alone ask for players with certain powers.

Again, it's not "I did two of a thing". This is the way teams are run. They look for healers, not bubblers. You may not like the idea, but it's what the vast majority of teams do. And they do it because doing so brings success. Again and again. Everyday on every server, regardless of team composition or mission.

And since we're giving out math lessons, learn the importance of relevance. Simply stating the effects of a power has _nothing_ whatsoever to do with whether or not that power is needed by a team. No one is claiming the little bubbles do nothing. The claim is that what they do is not needed by the vast majority of the teams out there.

In most situations, they're a waste of time.

Would have to agree.

I can say that on my bots/FF, I don't bubble the bots at all on teams unless there is something particularly difficult that we're fighting. Otherwise, I'll only bubble teammates, and even then I'm not religious about it if the team seems to be doing fine.

Edit:
Would highly recommend it. Repair not only heals the bots, it replenishes their endurance. This enables them to kill faster during long battles. It also has a range that's better than Aid Other and can't be interrupted the way Aid Other can. On the other hand, Aid Other can be used on teammates and NPCs you're trying to keep alive. I have both on my bots/ff.

Another thing to keep in mind is you have dual builds. All my FFers have a "canonical build" that includes the little bubbles and power boost. But they also have other builds I like. When the "canonical build" is the right choice, that's what I use. But usually teams don't need it and I use my other builds.

The question of whether or not FFers should take the little bubbles is the topic of this thread.

*points to thread title*

Just refresh memories, here's a quote from the original post:

It's a very interesting question, if for no other reason than many folks on these boards would insist such powers should be mandatory.

But the OP answered his own question with next sentence:

In fact, he's come to pretty much the same conclusion that I did: teams don't need the little bubbles even a little bit. The only difference seems to be that I'm willing to give this unknown FFer credit for contributing to damage and not wasting time bubbling teamates that didn't need it.

Ok, I just did back to back LGTF runs.

For the first, I kept the entire team near the defense cap. For the second, I never gave out any bubbles and for fighting those rikti war bots I turtled up in PFF so no one was even getting dispersion bubble.

The result: No difference whatsoever in the performance of the two teams. None. In both cases the teams health bars were at 100% the entire TF (except for hammi).

Sorry folks, but little bubbles aren't needed. The entire FF set isn't needed. Not at low levels. Not at high levels. And I didn't see _any_ evidence that mitigation out performed healing. In fact, it didn't even equal it, since not giving out bubbles meant I could spend my time attacking (which actually accomplishes something).

There's a reason why teams look for healers and not bubblers.

No. I'm just pointing out that this what teams do. They look for healers. And there's a very good reason why they won't run missions without healers, but will run them without bubbles (or any other kind of buff).

That reason is teams with healers tend to succeed, whereas teams without healers tend to fail.

Well, if that's what's being said, than I agree. Bubbles are more effective at mitigation. They would have to be since heals aren't mitigation.

But my understanding of the the discussion is that if someone doesn't take they little bubbles they're doing it wrong. And I'm saying they're not. There's nothing wrong with skipping them.

There is _never_ a level in the game where this isn't true. The idea that at higher levels teams somehow suddenly need bubbles more is simply wrong. Does a tanker in Granite need a bubble? No. Does my EM/Shields Scrapper need a bubble? No. But both need heals from time to time regardless of whether or not they have bubbles.

More importantly, this is a game. People aren't here to run spreadsheets on mitigation statistics or to follow someone's team composition and build philosophies. They here to have fun.

If you're having fun and the team is winning, you're doing it right. And if that means your FFer skips the little bubbles because it's more fun to blast, or because you want some stealthing abilities, or because you like playing your FFer as a tank, or you want chaos control powers for emergencies, then that's ok.

I understand _exactly_ what's being said. You're peddling an opinion that almost no one in the game actually follows. An no matter how many examples that are presented showing you to be wrong, you'll go right on peddling that opinion.

The 99.99% of players who don't build teams based on your opinion aren't stupid. In fact just the opposite. Believe it or not, players have built their toons so that they actually work. They didn't need bubbles to survive. They don't even need them to be good at what they do.

If someone comes along and throws a bubble there way, great. But if not, they'll keep right on playing without missing a beat.

And your saying it doesn't make it so.

Folks aren't going to build teams off of what you or I say on a message board. They'll build them off what's the best fit from the players available. And pretty much every time at every level they'll take a healer over a bubbler.

Players like bubbles, but they _need_ heals.

No. You ignore end drain. It's done all the time. Most teams running Synapse, for example, have no bubbler. And they do just fine.

I love FF. I have 8 level 50 FFers and several lower level FFers. But I'm not under any illusion that teams fall apart once I log off.

Ran Khan last night with a tam of trollers and a blaster and I put everyone near the soft cap. A team of squishies fighting 5 AVs and no one died. Then ran ITF with everyone near the soft cap. It makes a huge difference to be able to just stand there and beat up the AV rather than running around just trying to stay alive.

Bubbles are great. Soft cap is great.

But there's nothing wrong with not going that route. Mostly because teams don't need it. This is an incredibly easy game and the vast majority of missions are run with no bubbles at all. If an FFer wants to take attacks rather than little bubbles, it's not going to hurt the team any more than not inviting a bubbler at all would hurt the team.

This gets tossed around on these boards a lot, and I disagree with it.

So does pretty much everyone who plays the game. That's why teams will run without a bubbler of any kind and not give it a second thought, but will look for healers for even the simplest of missions.

Bubbles are great. Power boosted bubbles are awesome. But neither are needed.

● If you have bubbles, you still need heals.
● If you have heals, you don't need bubbles.
∴ Heals > Bubbles

Not taking the little bubbles is not a big deal. Teams run missions pretty much non-stop without bubbles. It's not difficult.

Big bubble for mez protection, force bolt to get people out of trouble quickly, PFF + aid self for the occasional heal.

Nothing wrong with that build.

As Local Man pointed out, TA has tons of debuffs.

If you do decide to go with TA don't forget to go with magic or tech origin so you can use the origin attack to light oil slick.

If you love the toon, why change it?

But if you're determined, I'd say your build looks decent as is. I'd agree with Oedipus_Tex that you may want to consider super speed rather than Air Superiority/Fly. But not for the reason he gave. You don't need stealth on an FFer, just use PFF. But taking super speed will free up a slot to take aid other. You could also drop vengeance and take aid self.

With those two small heals combine with Mind's control and FF's protection you go a long way to being able to really turn around a struggling team, or to just pitch in healing from time to time when the healer is distracted.

To be honest, I'd ignore the advice most people give on knock back on this board. Remember that this is the internet and you may be getting advice from someone who has less experience using the power than you do! There's no one running around with knock back powers on all the time, and no one suggesting you should. Knock back is a situational power and in situations where it's useful, it's extremely powerful.

The FF powers are all designed to work with one another. For example, a nice trick with FF is to raise PFF and use Aid Self when the going gets tough. You can do this when you're surrounded by a very large group and it drastically increases your survivability. But how do you get _out_ of PFF when there's tons of baddies around you, all attacking you? Repulsion field will let you drop PFF safely, even when you're surrounded.

An example of using a trick like this is the Khan TF where you have to take out 4 portals surrounded by baddies. Raise PFF, let the come to you. Raise repulsion field. Drop PFF. The melee toons can then just waltz in and destroy the portals. Or you can pop a purple luck and destroy them yourself with repulsion field still up. This trick also works for demon portals.

And the classic use for repulsion field is for chaos control. When things get tough, turning on repulsion field and and running around to just sending stuff flying is one of the most effective ways to survive what would otherwise be a team wipe.

So is taking repulsion field a good idea? I think it is, but you can take a look at the videos below and decide for yourself.

Using repulsion field to exit PFF in a dangerous crowd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmK0SC14TI4

Using repulsion field for chaos control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gebY_SwaCWA

I'd suggest a Mind/TA. It's arguably the best controller in the game in terms of hard control and Oil Slick adds some much needed AoE damage. Oil Slick + Mass Confusion just melts entire groups.

There's a Shadow Shard mission that you get from a contact in RWZ. I can't remember the name of the mission, but it vs. Nemesis and has a robot Manticore in it. Manticore is on a platform with a fake nemesis and a large group of regular nemesis. Below the platform is another platform with 3 large groups of nemesis bots and soldiers.

My Mind/TA soloed that entire setup in nothing flat. Just devastated stuff. The only trick I used was she had ranged defense IO bonuses.

Each secondary will give you a different playstyle, so it's always helps to give an example of what you want to accomplish with the toon.

With the exceptions of Ice and Earth, your average run of mill troller will do decent single target damage if you take your single target powers and slot them for damage. Fire, and to a lesser extent, Plant do decent AoE damage. Mind and Plant can use their AoE confuses to have larger groups kill themselves quickly.

Edit:
Earth gets pretty good at single target damage once it gets stoney. And as I mentioned earlier, Illusion really needs PA up to be considered to have decent damage.