macskull

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Cant you see the devs changed it to bring more people to the PVP portion of the game. I13 tried to lvl out the playing field a bit. More people tried pvp some stayed some left. I14 added pvp IO's to give people a reason to come and pvp and get a reward that can only be dropped from killing other players. More people showed up.

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There are more people PvPing now? Please show me where, I'd love to see this. Except for maybe a few nights a week when there is some semblance of a "scheduled" PvP event going on, almost every zone on every server but Freedom is empty or has a few people who are only there for the badges or temp powers and will go crying to their mommy if you actually try to PvP them.

Moreover, where are the people that I14's PvP IO drops brought in? I saw a spike in zone population for about a week - maybe not even that long - after I14 launched. Now the zones are mostly back to the ghost towns they've been since the I13 launch, because the people who are really interested in the PvP IOs are just farming their second accounts in the arena. But, hey, if datamining shows the devs that there are more people in the arena, it's a success! Nevermind how those numbers were actually generated.

You can tell people to adapt all you want. Let's say you own a Ferrari for four years, and you bring it into the shop to have it looked at. You come back a few days later and they hand you a tricycle with one wheel flat. You tell the shop owner you're going to the Better Business Bureau to file a complaint, and they laugh at you and say "adapt." Isn't that a bit ridiculous? It's the same thing that's happened here. Why did many of the top-skill PvPers leave? Because they didn't want to adapt to a system that wasn't fun. I still think PvP is fun, but it just sucks horribly compared to what we used to have.

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Skill still wins out. I13 just separated the skilled players from the ones who thought they were good but in fact were just riding the fotm gravy train.

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Now, more than ever, build is more important than skill. I mean, I did well on a flying Katana/Regen Scrapper back in the day. If I tried to bring that same build into the current version of PvP, it'd get wrecked. My Earth/Storm (hardly a FotM) was good in old PvP, both for dueling and zone, now it's largely garbage. Same goes for my Storm/Sonic. Now I'm pretty much forced to play FotM toons if I want to keep up - due to the glaring imbalances this issues has presented, if you're not outperforming everything else, you can't compete. Period.

One of the stated goals was to improve AT and powerset viability in PvP. So for an example let's take a look at the powersets or build combinations in I12 that could work well in the hands of a skilled player in a dueling situation.

Blaster: Fire, Psi, Ice, or Sonic, with Energy, Devices, or Elec
Controller: Illusion, Mind, Ice, with Storm, Rad, or TA
Defender: Cold, Rad, Storm, TA, with Sonic, Dark, or Psi
Scrapper: BS, Fire, Spines, with Regen, SR, or WP
Tanker: Ice, WP, Fire, with EM or SS
Peacebringer: worked fine, provided built properly and played well
Warshade: lolz Warshades
Brutes: EM, SS, Stone, with Elec, Fire, or WP
Corruptor: Fire, Ice, Sonic, Rad, with Cold, Rad, Storm, or Therm
Dominator: Fire, Ice, Mind, with Fire, Ice, Elec, or Psi
MM: Thugs, Ninjas, Necro, with Storm, Poison, Traps, or TA
Stalker: EM or Spines, with Nin or Regen
Soldier: Bane
Widow: NW or Fort

And now, in I13/I14:

Blaster: Psi, Sonic, Arch, with Energy or Devices
Controller: Mind, Fire, or Illusion, with Therm
Defender: Cold with Sonic or Dark
Scrapper: Spines, BS, or Fire, with Regen or Fire
Tanker: Fire with SS
Peacebringer: see I12
Warshade: lolz Warshades
Brute: SS with Fire
Corruptor: Sonic or Rad, with Cold or Therm
Dominator: Mind or Fire, with Fire or Elec
MM: Thugs, Nin, or Necro, with Poison or Pain
Stalker: Elec or Spines, with WP, Nin, or Regen
Soldiers: lolz Soldiers
Widows: lolz Widows

So, with very few exceptions, the changes that were intended to promote more open PvP actually limited the sets that are able to compete.

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Nice post Mac. Read it all, agree with the main points.

The only thing I do like about the changes is not needing a full tray of break free's to play a squishy in the zones.

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I'll take the break frees and a pocket emp any day over this!

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Honestly the best thing to come of the changes was not having to bring Break Frees with you all the time - but if this is the alternative, I'm not so sure that's a good thing.

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I think the new PvP requires more skill to survive since it is easier to get a kill.

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Check 1: Are you being spiked?
If no -- continue as normal
If yes -- goto 2

Check 2: Is Phase/Hibernate up?
If no -- get ready to press "go to hospital"
If yes -- click it

^^ That right there is skill.

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It took a lot of skill for blasters to hit build up+Aim+ Fire Ball+Inferno=win in the old PvP.

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Err... unless the target was mezzed or just turtling around you had to know what you were doing to get in range to actually hit them with Inferno. Even if you managed to do that, the only thing Fireball + Inferno killed was Masterminds.

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What I think the devs tried was to bring the OP toons down and the Weaker toons up so they are at the same lvl.

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If they'd succeeded, there would be no more FotMs. Problem is, there are even fewer "high-end viable" builds than there were before. That doesn't sound like "evening out the playing field" or "making PvP more viable for more ATs and powersets."

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Granted they might have been some real bad PvPers; however they should have killed me.

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That seems more likely. Movement and inspiration use can keep you alive against numerically superior enemies - well, they could. Nowadays it's phase or die. That's not skill. That's a decision forced upon you by poor mechanics.

Base resists are a tool to allow bad players to live longer. I don't so much mind the "everything gives resists to everything" change, because it means I don't have to worry about the incoming damage type so much as I do the secondary effects of that attack. Base resists, though, are just stupid.

Yes, that is PvP.

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From Niviene's PvP Guide to Guides:

Q. What’s the best server to PvP on? Is there an official or unofficial PvP server?

A. There is no official PvP server, but Test server is where you’ll find the highest quality and where PvP groups from different servers meet for matches. Among the live servers, after a recent poll and discussion of attendance at recent PvP tournies, there has been a movement to declare Infinity the unofficial PvP server. Many PvPers have transferred toons there, and Infinity already has its own active PvP League.

Freedom has the highest population and very active zones, indeed, many still claim it as the unofficial PvP server. Virtue is well known for its RPvP and has reasonably active zones. Liberty is well populated and home to the highest number of PvP SGs currently active on test. PvP happens on all the servers, and each has its own characters and flavor. That said, when people come in and ask what the best server for PvP is Infinity, Freedom and Test are the default answers.

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Almost all existing stickied PvP guides are outdated in the face of I13. Following that issue's closed beta in October 2008, the test team and dueling ladders completely shut down, and the team ladder is just starting to get off the ground again (seven months later). The dueling ladder is dead, and there's talk of a 2v2 ladder.

Odds of finding duels on test when there aren't PvP SGs practicing or having matches are slim to none. Freedom is where most people are these days simply because it's the highest-population server, ergo more people to PvP with. Infinity is somewhat active, sometimes. Infinity, Freedom, and a few other servers had their own team PvP ladders at one point but I13 destroyed those as well.

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Dear Is There Anybody Out There With Half A Brain That Can Provide A Positive Detailed Analysis On I13/14 PvP,

Tell me this, in fact tell all of us, how has Suppression, DR, Heal Decay, Mez Resistance, removal of -Max Run Speed and overpowered NPCs helped to make PvP viable and fun for all ATs?

Love,
Optical_Illusion

PS- GL LOL

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Ooh! Oooh! Me!

Well, I have this Emp/Dark, see? I can use Clear Mind to protect my teammates from mezz-- err, wait, I can't do that anymore. Oh! I can use Fortitude to buff their-- wait... it gets DR'd and isn't really worth it unless I have Power Boost to back it up. But oh yeah, that gets DR'd too! I can use AB to give them increased regen, recharge, and recov-- crap, those get DR'd. Well, at least I can keep myself alive with Healing Aura... but, crap. Suppresses and decays, if I use it I die.

Well, at least I can do dama-- bah, I can't do that either.

Sorry, my example's pretty bad. But maybe someone else has one!

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i don't know how many times i went into a zone hit /whoall saw noone and as soon as i stepped out of base waqs held/spiked to death.

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Why yes, if I'm in a zone I'll go on hide. Why would I want people knowing I'm there? The advantage of surprise is a big one, y'know. Being the expert PvPer you are I'm sure you've realized that by now. I did mention though that there are these things called "Break Frees," "Emerges," "Escapes," and "Iron Wills" you could use for mez protection under the old system. But inspirations, like using powers, are an exploit and should be banned because they gave other players an advantage, am I right?

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that is what broguht about that change. and enough with the "you should have teamed or brought friends then" attitude. that didn't help either.

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Oh my God, they want me to team in an MMO!? [censored] that, man. That's crazy talk!

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was it really that much fun for you to constantly kill the same person over and over for no rep?

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If they were the only person in the zone, or presented themselves as the easiest target (i.e. standing still, distracted by pillboxes, etc), of course I would. Of course, now even most of those people are gone, but hey, new PvP is so fun! All the new people in the zones make for a great, dynamic experience!

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they are working on brining more balance to PvP then it ever had.

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I'll believe it when I see it. If the last 6 months are any indication it'll be a damn long time, if ever, before we see it. Although I hear NCSoft has been working with Cryptic to migrate the people who actually understand how things work to this pretty intense PvP update coming out sometime in July.

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A quick MMA fight is what? Boooooooooring. Why? Because it's a definite sign of an imbalance. A balanced fight = longer fight = more entertaining fight.

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Did you ever watch a melee vs. melee duel under the old rules? Yeah, those were boring as [censored]. Two people standing next to each other, never moving, pressing buttons mindlessly, isn't PvP. It's a waste of server resources. Lucky for you, under the old system, you had teammates that could buff your resistance, defense, tohit, or damage, or even heal you when you took a spike. But, I forgot. Teaming isn't an acceptable practice in an MMO. brb, gonna bring my Emp/Dark into the zone and pwn noobs.

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So I've never really been into the PvP thing, even though a bunch of friends are interested. With the new enhancments though, I'm willing to play along for the possible reward. My question is, can I even get an IO fighting against level 35-40 characters if I am level 50? We would mostly play in the Arena. Thanks.

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If you level-cap the arena fight at 35 or 37 or so, sure. Otherwise a natural 50 won't get drops against a natural 35-40.

Just like running clients on multiple PCs, you can run the client on the Mac without worrying about your PC install. Of course, you can only be logged into your account from one computer, but that's true universally.

Just be sure to note that you will need to reinstall the VidiotMaps map pack (the Mac installer is on their website), your window and chat settings files will be at the default ones (though you can copy your old ones over if you know what you're doing, and I think Cuppa_Manga has a guide on that), and there is no Mac version of Mids or HeroStats.

At any rate, good luck, and Welcome to Macintosh.

Post deleted by Moderator 08

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Yes, the MMO with the fastest movement in the industry certainly was like a half-sized pool table compared to the full-sized tables of other games.

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So fast means better right? Or more hardcore? Answer: No. In fact, its a huge source of the original problem.

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FAST PVP HURTS MY EYES!!!! ZOMG MY EYES!!!!!!!!!

Post deleted by Moderator 08

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Guess what? I never played on test before I13. Not once. Hell, I only started PvPing in the month or so leading up to I13. Even I know a turd when I see one. You can polish up I13 PvP and praise it all you like - a shiny turd is still a turd.

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this statemnet right here explains alot. you have no idea what it was like to PvP before the end of i12 therefore you really have no base to assume your position. the only thing i can gather from your posts is you io'd out a toon for i12 and by the time you got it done PvP changed. guess what? deal with it and adapt. make the changes that need to be made to your toons. this is the PvP we have now. enough whinning about pre i13 PvP. if you don't like it don't play it.

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Incorrect on pretty much every account. Broad generalizations often fail, but thank for playing. PvP a month before I12 wasn't significantly different than PvP two months before that, or a year before that. I PvP'd on my converted PvE characters with few or no IOs (kind of like I still do). I'd been watching matches, both in-game and on Youtube, for significantly longer than that time, learning by watching, so to speak. Yes, there were some frustrating problems with the old system. Not nearly as many as there are now though. How long were you PvPing before I13 hit?

I'm not whining. The people who say "Heat Exhaustion needs to be nerfed" or the people who said "Stalkers are cheap," or "Hibernate is cheating!" are the whiners. If you'll look in the general PvP section you'll find a post from yours truly about exactly where I think certain parts of I13 failed to achieve their goals. If that post , and the points it raises, comes across as whiny to you, I think I can safely disregard your further contribution on the matter.

Fire/Elec

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Not comparing MMO to pool felt. Thats what a High School Diploma will help you figure out.

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That's odd. I thought you were using an analogy. Generally the purpose of an analogy is to compare things to one another. Unless, of course, you actually were trying to argue the merits of a certain color of pool felt, in which case I am confused as to why you'd choose this forum for that.

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Comparing the business side of it. Your little ladder matches of max 500 people are no match for the hundreds of thousands that might wanna try it.

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People already tried PvP, under the old rules. Those that chose to stick around and learn how the system worked eventually got good at it. Those that didn't left the zones. No amount of rewards or dumbing-down of the mechanics will bring most of those players back into the zones. Perhaps this "wonderfully successful," "more fun," and "balanced" new PvP is why the zones are more empty than they ever were before the changes.

And "hundreds of thousands?" This game has maybe 120-150k subscribers. That's hardly "hundreds of thousands" of people. Additionally, the September to December 2008 subscription numbers were the lowest this game has recorded since about six months after its launch in 2004. I don't think it's a coincidence there are less people PvPing now than there were before the changes. Where are all the new players these changes were supposed to bring in, hm?

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Excellent analogy bud.

And the issue now is, as the devs gradually work on improving PvP (as they have), to get all those casual players (who were put off by the DRASTICALLY broken PvP) back and give it a 2nd try.

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Making two different rulesets is a great start for getting PvEers into PvP! I think making Flurry and Kick do more damage than primary attack powers makes great thematic sense, too - in fact, that's the best change I've heard of in this game in its five years! I wholeheartedly support this new PvP system.

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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.

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This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.

Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!

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So say i shoot pool in a league on friday nights, the felt on the table is ripped and the owners need to fix it. You following me mac. Good.

Now the people who shoot pool in the leagues want red felt because the green felt hurts their eyes. The people who occasionally play like the green and are opposed to the red because it doesn't remind them of a pool table.

Now even though the league's play on the tables nightly should the owners give them the benefit and do what they ask or request because thats what they want. Nope you know why, the tables generate money all day long.

PVP was broke for the majority who might have WANTED to enjoy all aspects of the game for their money. Its not about what your little rec leagues want on the test server its about what paying customers want. That sir is the most for their money.

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Comparing PvP in an MMO to the color of the felt on a pool table is the first step in getting people to ignore you completely. Good try though. A more apt analogy (that still is relevant to your pool example) would be if the store owners decided to replace the standard pool tables with half-size ones, or with bumper pool tables. The people who got good at playing pool on a regulation table are upset, and rightly so, because now everything that was fun for them got torn away. Meanwhile, the people that never bothered to try hard to get good at playing pool on a full-size table are overjoyed because now they don't have to try and they can look good.

Guess what? I never played on test before I13. Not once. Hell, I only started PvPing in the month or so leading up to I13. Even I know a turd when I see one. You can polish up I13 PvP and praise it all you like - a shiny turd is still a turd.

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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.

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This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.

Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!

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Dynamic team roles may have been awesome in arena pvp, particularly amongst the test arena scene. But to the average pvpers (like me) or the people who don't pvp, test arena pvp was an elite clique that would take huge ammounts of effort to get anywhere near.

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So why worry about it? If you wanted to get in on a test PvP team, you needed to practice. At any level of PvP, it was never about the build. Of course some builds worked better than others - that's the nature of a dynamic game. Different weapons work better than others in certain situations in an FPS, different classes and powersets are no different in an MMO. If you need to take out that last enemy half a mile across the map to score the winning kill in a tied game, are you going to use a sniper rifle or a pistol?

The biggest barrier to entry for test PvP wasn't build. Anyone can click a few buttons at the character creator to make something with certain powersets. It's how you used those powersets, in conjunction with the rest of your characters' abilities and those of your teammates, that set you apart from the rest.

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The rest of the pvp was the occasional random arena match or zone pvp where most of these 'dynamic team roles' were more often than not badly crippled by the inherent lack or organization in these areas.

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So, what you're saying here is that because players in zones couldn't figure out how to use team chat, they decided to completely redo the PvP system.

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The pvp system really was quite flawed when looked at from the context of the more low end pvp, which a larger majority of the pvp community would be in if there actually was a large pvp community, or at least the devs thought so, and I would agree.

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No, it wasn't. Almost anything could be at least somewhat useful in zone or kickball arena PvP (in your terms, "low-end PvP"). After the changes in I13 the number of builds, powersets that are truly useful has become even smaller. People have pointed out that even the FotM builds have become more limited. For changes that were intended to stamp out FotMs and make everything more viable, they were pretty ill-conceived.

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If DR is off there will be a bunch of 0-0 ties. Throw an emp on a team and both people are at caped res and either caped or close to it regain. 2 unkillable teams fighting each other reminds me of a nerd fight in high school. A lot of punches/slaps thrown and no real damage being done.

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I'd toss in a vote for TS off, DR on. DR off you could just bring two therms and never die. DR on has its own set of problems but I really think that for duels and small team matches DR on is the better solution, at least until we have an option to remove the stuipid base resists.

Yes, there's something obviously wrong with the people that loved dynamic team roles and mechanics that made sense.

It's no small wonder the world is in its current state.

I added the -res proc to N-Bolt and the Lady Grey proc to the other two. I used 5x Decimation for the recharge bonus so only had room for one proc per attack.

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dUmb goes rouge...

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Spelling fail >.>

So why not do a Rad/Therm? It's probably not the "best" but it works very well. Hitting X-ray Beam for 500 damage (after Scourge) is awesome.