lionsbane_EU

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My logic is not faulty at all.

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But by your own admission you're thick. Why trust the logic of someone like that.

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Nice one. Completely out of the blue. Why entire a proper conversation when you can be so innovative in your barbs?



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This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.

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Assuming that PvP requires heavy Setting of builds, then that will always exclude the casual player, and nothing they can do will ever change that.

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it never used to be like that.

And if its like that now, which it is, then they should either bloody well change it or accept PvP will never be the popular factor they want and have just wasted valuable months they could have dedicated elsewhere.

please bear in mind they have just alienated half or more of the PvP community with the power changes in the chase for the greater good.

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OTOH, Dual builds means the casual player can have a build which they are slowly slotting out for PvP while keeping a build stocked with 'lesser' but perfectly adequate SOs which they use to obtain the cash needed to get the Set components.

Cut the DOOM, Lionsbane, your logic is faulty.

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What a let them eat cake philosopy that is.

My logic is not faulty at all. And I havent created the doom. They have.
I'm not the one who has shot the current powers on PvP to bits while trying to improve PvP for the wider masses.

And if there is a doom to my comments its because an almighty train is coming round the corner. As far as I'm concerned, while this one could defend itself, its almost in complete denial that a great deal of its player base plays because if they want to play a super hero game this is the only one in town.
That wont be the case soon.

And, with precious little time left, the PvP drive, which has constituted this issue has actually put this game back not forward. Or do you disagree with that assessment too?

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Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.


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Which just shows that, ultimately, you've COMPLETELY missed the entire point of a game like this, which is to have FUN.

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No I havent. What constitutes fun is a personal thing. And it covers a wide variety of areas.

A common denomintator in FUN for the vast majority of human beings is striving towards (and achieving) one goal or another. Any body, even game designers, will tell you that.

Other wise all you're doing is digging ditches.

And a reasonable number of set IOs are goals most people who play this game cant achieve.

Certainly not if they have to support two versions of the same char.

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the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.

the vast majority will never be able to do it any real meaningful way.

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So.... The game wasn't meaningful before IO's??

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Well that was different because IOs werent there for people to want to get.

Ok. let me put it like this. This entire issue has been clearly stated as a drive to make pvP work. The purpose of that is surely to increase interest in PvP, and by definition improve the overall number of people who continue to play the game.

Whether it succeeds or not (im referring to the PvP power changes which is another subject entirely)isnt the point here. I'm referring to the goal

I have already laid my opinion as to why PvP will not succeed in any meaningful way and that the powers are the least of its problems. It's to do with the fact that only hard core farmers or seriously dedicated players can get the full io sets and that they are then pretty much unbeatable unless they face another player at least reasonably setted up. .

This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.

Now, the idea of having one alt with a PvP set and a PvE set is a good one because the two enviroments have different power requirements.

But the idea that you have to start building your enhancements from scratch totally defeats the object and simply (and greatly) exacerbates the problem I mention above.

There are very few players who will be able to enjoy this system. It wont work for the collective at all.


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Even though I couldn't possibly afford to IO out Wednesday's second build with the same kind of goodies anytime soon, I still don't see how I'm losing out. It's another nice option, one I think I'll be making good use of.

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Whether you are losing out personally is a matter of personal perspective.

What will happen is the large number of supposed players who the devs will want to attract to PvP will simply give it up because this actually makes it even harder (to the point of impossible for many people) to compete in the PvP theatre.

It's because if you cant begin to match the hard core players IOs in PvP you will lose interest entirely in it.

After all, when you realise that you are simply are going to be forever the loser and you cant change that because you will never get 500 millin inf (thats just for one version of your alt never mind two) you'kll end up giving up PvP entirely.

Maybe not you personally but the community that the devs are so anxious to try it out.

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I plan to go with SO's for the builds I play less.

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I think thats what most will be doing. It just boggles the mind to be honest that Norcal can give us such a revolutionary game-extending system that was 'Invention-Origin' enhancements... then introduce a re-vamped PvP system that doesn't factor in all the hard work players have put into that system thus far for inclusion in dual-build.

Totally boggles the mind personally. Anyway, ho-hum.

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Its a bit worse than ho hum actually.

the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.

the vast majority will never be able to do it any real meaningful way.

So, the game will have the few multi built, fully setted alts and the rest will play a kind of catch up they can never achieve.

Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.

The only real way you can progress with your alt and power up is to farm, farm farm. And they've just compounded the problem. Especially if you want to PvP.

Is this really the direction a sensible game should take?

And there are probably 10 different ways they could have allowed your enhancements to be duped without serious exploits.

Why do they think that this system that will only frustrate the majority of players is a winner?

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I have a question about the logic of a proposed server jump to the USA.

If Unions busy times (activety wise) correseponde roughly with the USA quite (barring the big two servers) times, won't we be jumping from one level of activity to exactly the same level of activety?

If a major gripe about a server merge with union is the fact you would have dupe name issues- wont you have the same problem going to the usa servers?

If, say half the euro population migrated, they would be split across the usa servers so there would be minimal population increase for those servers.

So, my conclusion is simple: Merge defiant and union but (bearing in mind this is the internet, from a corporate perspective keep us all under the same service team.

That way, the major gripe of being neglected would be wiped. Same forums, same website same service.

Effectively Unient (!) would simply become another usa server, the only difference being where our server is housed and the maintainance for that.

No?

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No. At the moment we have a set number of character slots per server x 4 servers. The states have that x 8 servers ( think it's 8) so from the start have twice as many character slots as us. Added to the fact that 2 of our servers are in another language so that limits it more. If you merge them we lost half our character slots, where as if we merge the 2 server lists we end up with the same number of servers as the US players and more options on which server to play on.

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That's hardly a reason to block the idea. They can compensate the merge by giving a player extra slots you know.

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2. It'd give me a laugh thinking of all the people who've left for the US servers and lost their vet awards

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I have a question about the logic of a proposed server jump to the USA.

If Unions busy times (activety wise) correseponde roughly with the USA quite (barring the big two servers) times, won't we be jumping from one level of activity to exactly the same level of activety?

If a major gripe about a server merge with union is the fact you would have dupe name issues- wont you have the same problem going to the usa servers?

If, say half the euro population migrated, they would be split across the usa servers so there would be minimal population increase for those servers.

So, my conclusion is simple: Merge defiant and union but (bearing in mind this is the internet, from a corporate perspective keep us all under the same service team.

That way, the major gripe of being neglected would be wiped. Same forums, same website same service.

Effectively Unient (!) would simply become another usa server, the only difference being where our server is housed and the maintainance for that.

No?

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I'd say Going Rogue was almost inevitable too, the fact it got mentioned in the survey earlier this year, and the buzz it generated, speaks volumes about how much it's wanted, so once again devpestering becomes development.

I'd be amazed if they start developing content for one side instead of the other: the days of that are long gone now, especcially as it's now one game instead of Heroes or villains. All new stuff will be co-operative: zone wise, with little tweaks to missions to fit each moral standpoint.

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Trouble with that is it still is two games really. My hero cant go to Grandville for example.
I personally think that if they allowed travel between hero and villian zones, placed missions there and made it dangerous to enter enemy zones, that would encourage more villians and more of a sense of danger and excitement.

Course, it would have to be well thought out and compelling but I personally think it could and, (as long as its done in a way that means you dont have to do these things if you dont want to,) should be done.

I think it could create an entiree new facet to the game and it would be realitively easy to set up because most of the components are already available.

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Hoping that the "War Walls" would come down, not sure how feasable that would be though or even possible...

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Positron mentioned that was a possibility pretty much as soon as he was made lead designer.
That was what 2 or 3 years ago?

Don't hold your breath.

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Or they could just disable all slots and enhancements, make you fight with unslotted powers.

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I dont think that would work. You work hard for your powers. You want to use them.

Actually I just had an idea. It wont solve the disparity between the players which is a key reason fwhy PvP wont work but it may solve the other issue.

I think i'm right in saying Sirens Call is a good PvP zone and its a shame the others arent like it. I feel that way.

Problem for me is that if I put my 50 in sirens, or my 15 for that matter my powers are unbalanced.

So that idea isnt necessarily attractive.

But.

Why cant every level have access to every PvP zone?

Why cant, when I'm 50 and I go to sirens (for example) I get a choice of levels- 1-10 11-20 etc and I enter that instance of the zone?

If every player could access every zone (their levels equivelent) players would end up gravitating to a particular zone . maybe two. The devs could see which zones really are popular ansd work on them to make them even better.

Now, I think that may solve at least one problem with PvP.
What you think?

And, whether you think it would work or not, why cant we have a level 50 sirens or bloody bay for that matter?

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It doesnt have to be that way. Instead of making us pay millions for a single set IO, they could rebalance the way IOs are distributed in game.

This would minimise the need for farming (another reason this game will fall behind) and give more casual players a chance of catching up by going through the normal mission route.

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Good god if the gme got any more basic they could start to sell it in mother care, im sick of the game being dumded down already, we got to have something that is hard to do or whats the point in playing.

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While I agree that the game is way too basic, what on earth is more basic than endless hundreds of hours of farming?
Farming you must do if you want to get even one decent IO set?

The very fact we face the question of what else is there is indicitive of the limited imagination the devs have put into this game.

the idea that the ios come from gameplay rather than purchase is just that: an idea.

But the point is that PvP is broken not necessarily because of the current state of powers but because relatively few people are able to endure the sheer amount of farming required to get 300 million or whatever they they need to compete. (buy io sets)

So they cant compete, so they get fed up trying. Which is one reason less people are willing to enter and really play out the PvP domain.

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Saving and aiming for that One IO you have been after is the only hard thing left in the game.

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Yes I take your point but we're not talking about one io here.
For me to equal you in terms of set iOs would cost me hundereds of millions. I can never get the time to devote to one alt getting that sort of inf, never mind the three i have.

That is a massive inbalance between players and while that goes on, PvP isnt fun for a lot of people because they can never compete.

What's frustrated me is the way they've devoted an entire issue to this and have displayed no recognision of the core issues at all.
This is valuable time, that should have been spent putting into place implementations that were ground breaking, in the hope that it would keep loyal players here rather than desert and go to CO or DC.

Is there anyone who honestly thinks that issue i13 goes anywhere substantial towards doing that job?

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and more to the point 13,000 active players

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Got a linky for where that figure comes from?
Or are you misunderstanding the peak concurrency figures?

If the latter then please try to understand that maximum active accounts at any one instant in time is not the same as number of active accounts.

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I didnt understand what you just said but in any event I said active players not accounts. Perhaps I should have said average.

Either way the game doesnt have much more than 13,000 players on at any given time.

That figure means that while things are just about sustainable now, as soon as the game takes a major hit it will enter the land of diminishing returns.

Too few players to interest any new players. Too little money to justify expansion, or major advertising etc etc.

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edit: Look, we're all hoping for something to wow us but you must understand that they've only just started with their new team. If we don't have something to wow us by the end of next year then I'll agree that the updates are half-baked, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until then.

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Yeah if this was a couple of years ago Ide agree with this statement.

But in closed beta right now is another super hero game that, even if its a second rate game is certain to bite into the player base here.

If it's any good, given this games 124,000 current player base and more to the point 13,000 active players, how will this game sustain itself financially and from a population viewpoint?
Where will the replacement subscribers come from when there is a new shiney game out there that does (allegedly) everything that this one doesnt?

And to my mind thats the big issue.

They keep telling us they are aware competition is coming... (having DC arrive anytime soon will be akin to having a small corner shop that barely makes a profit and Tescos announce they're building a store next door.)
yet they so far have come up with nothing of any ground breaking substance whereas the competitors, even though we dont fully know everything, already have.

I just think the game is going completely the wrong way.

Take this PvP for example. (which i13 largely revolves around.)

PvP will never work in this game unless they havve a rethink for very simple reasons.

firstly, apart from Sirens Call (in my opinion that IS an engaging surface for PvP) they simly dont make the surfaces for PvP compelling enough.

Secondly it cant work because they have, with the way the have laid out inventions, a have and have not powers system.

I know a lot of players here farm intensly and have sets on their chars but most players dont.

So, when we PvP, we get walloped ad we can never ever play catch up.

So apart from the odd arena with our friends, we dont bother with PvP because the hardcore PvPer will be setted to the hilt.

It doesnt have to be that way. Instead of making us pay millions for a single set IO, they could rebalance the way IOs are distributed in game.

This would minimise the need for farming (another reason this game will fall behind) and give more casual players a chance of catching up by going through the normal mission route.

Instead, rather than recognise the core issues of PvP they spend endless hours brainstorming and fixing and ultimately alienating the player base. When they could be working on innovations that set us apart.

At a time they should be really making ground, glueing their cureent player base so that when the new games come they are more likely to stay here, they are stil in their own world, imagining that they know by serving up same old same old with pretty patterned wrapping paper round it.

I think its too late. Sorry.

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We are in the middle of a recession, kids.

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And yet...

so much for the recession...

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You telling me that i14 might contain some other bits does zero for me, Mr Miller saying MA is all we are getting, is worth taking notice of.

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There are an awful lot of players who play this game because its a super hero game.
In fact, as Positron himself states, it's currently the only one in town.

But there is at least one new super hero game, with lots of additions this one hasnt got, coming out next year.

is there any one who really thinks that this game isnt going to take a huge hit when theat happens?
Especially if the game is good. And, you know what? It just might be.

And heaven help this game if DC comes out too.

And, to compound this, there ar 124,000 subscribers here and only 13,000 actually playing on average across 15 servers.

The is no contingency to handle the hit this game will incur. If it loses 20% of its base it falls into the area of diminishiong returns because who walks into an empty resturant?

They had a year to bring something fresh and exciting to the game and all they've done, to my mind is compound the problem by alienating the PvP contingent.

And somehow, in some way that totally escapes me, Positron thinks that, on the eve of CO, the best response this game can make is a virtual stand alone Architecht issue.

Unbelievable.

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I expect this post will have gone by early tomorrow since two of the later posts have been reported (not both of them by me). However...

This thread badly needs closing.

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Agreed. I did ask the trollers to stay away from this thread. In fairness, after I asked that they did. Till
this guy came along.

Sorry but I really do not enjoy being insulted. I still dont think the concept I put forward was stupid. I also conceded that this wasnt a winning idea on these boards ages ago.

Although I now discover that other games are widening the sidekick concept out so maybe I wasnt so off the mark after all.
But yes. Close the thread.

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Alright, that does it, you scummy, stuck up, self centered little troll.

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I really like you though.

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First off, you idiot, if you dont want people calling you thick, why in gods name do you have it in your signature, STATING that you are?

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As I said, you wouldn't understand

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Second off, im as much entitled to my opinion as you, and I at least have the good grace to respect other peoples opnions and not just instantly jump to conclusions. I read through this trail of absolute [censored], to see if there was any redeeming feautres, THEN made a judgement on what I had read.

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Well, its got 150+ replies in it.Not all of them are from me and not all of them are sarcastic or insulting. Some pretty thoughtful ones actually. You saying everyone who took the time to reply and debate the point contributed [censored]?

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THIRDLY, if your going to insult someone, oh dear LORD, do the decent thing first and learn to speak english coherently, and to type/write it in a fashion that MAKES SENSE! You have sentances that lack any form of punctuation, and indeed meaning.

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How's my spelling though?

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You blather on, contradicting yourself over and over! You first said 'Do away with sidekicks', then changed it to 'Change it' and then, best of all 'I think this is pants, the game should be like this.'

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Ahh, Now I see the concepts that are beyond you. What I did was read other peoples comments and amend my suggestion as the thread progressed. I know its hard to grasp.

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And yes, that is paraphrasing somewhat. And I BET you wont even read that, because you will simply go 'This person disagrees with me, therefor they are stupid.'

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Let me put something to bed once and for all. And this isnt aimed at you at all. I never think someone that disagrees with me is stupid. I think that anyone who insults anyone without provocation is stupid and ignorant. I never spoke to you before you called me thick and unless you insult me again I dont think its too likely I will again.

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And THAT, mate, is my view of you, based on all the utter TRIPE that you have spouted on this thread. You have been rude, uncouth, arrogant and a general damnable [censored]!

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I think I've been polite to you. After all I insulted you in response to your insult of me. I seem to recall you insulting me without any provokation from me at all. How could I? I never noticed you before.

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All that and, yes, im seventeen. And I speak the damn lingo a helluva lot better than you do. Stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it! Cretin...

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Well I've got to be careful here because there are a lot of intelligent 17 year old or younger. Amazing how I could tell you werent one of em though, isn't it?

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I dont expect someone who is so ignorant as to write something like this to understand what I was getting at or why I was getting at it.

Bye bye little man. Or, more likely judging by the writing, boy.

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And you wonder why people have a hard time taking you seriously...

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Actually i know full well why.
And what? You like people you never spoke to calling you thick?

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If you know why and keep making the same mistake over and over what does that make you?

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When have I ever acknowledged the way i write as being a mistake? I'm take me as you find me. Dont like me- ok.

Do like me, thank you.
Dont want to post on my stupid threads? Fine.

But. I never ever insult anyone who didnt insult me first. I really do not like it. It's ignorant. End of.

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I dont expect someone who is so ignorant as to write something like this to understand what I was getting at or why I was getting at it.

Bye bye little man. Or, more likely judging by the writing, boy.

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And you wonder why people have a hard time taking you seriously...

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Actually i know full well why.
And what? You like people you never spoke to calling you thick?

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I got to page fifteen....and gave up.
Original idea was a bad one, in my opinon, from the start. For numerous reasons.
The OPs various responses suggest that either his signature suggesting he is 'thick' is very accurate, or he just love to think hes right.
Wrong. Deal with it. Bye bye

/UNSIGNED

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I dont expect someone who is so ignorant as to write something like this to understand what I was getting at or why I was getting at it.

Bye bye little man. Or, more likely judging by the writing, boy.

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Thus killing PL'ing altogether? And also (unless its with friends but even then...) making SK'ing pointless, why SK against foes which will be more difficult for the same xp? I'd rather go back to my low council and family mishes than do that!

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You're saying that the main function of sking to to power level. And if you take that away then teaming with lower levels for friendship is a distinct second place.

I really hope the game hasnt devolved to that level as a general rule.

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And as for oner 50 dealing with a map of 8 spawn, using 7 sked level 10s or 20s, you have to be really really good to do that and not have an untold number of deaths to the lower level (training io) players. Most people are nowhere near that standard.

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All the low level characters have to do is stay out of the way. Frosty Robot can solo an 8 man invincible spawn without even trying, and many other level 50 builds can too.

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there are very few players who can play as well as you can, with your understanding of the way the game works numerically. i did say youde have to be very good indeed and you fit that bill.

Although if any one char can quickly wipe an 8 player spawn isnt something a bit wrong with the game?

How can you find a challenge if youre teaming with 7 players if you can wipe the floor with the entire spawn alone?

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Is this Thread still going on? Wow. LB is passionate about this.

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I conceded to the majority ages ago

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I'll try one more time.

Level 50 tank, level 50 mission, set to invulnerable. Mobs are 53/54
7 x level 1. Auto SK'd to one below mission level, level 49. They CANNOT be SK'd up to -1 mob level, as character levels cannot go that high.

They are getting XP for +4/+5 mobs. PL paradise.

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Is this what all this is about????

I thought I clearly covered this quite awhile back.

Permit me to try one more time. In the alternate worlds where the devs launch my proposed system, the xp would be capped.

The way xp is distributed would be altered for the new system. If my level ten is sked by a 50 against a level 53 he would recieve the same xp as if he were faceing a +1 in a normal unsked mission.
The maximum xp an sked player could get would be relative to a +1.
So imagine he were in a mission of his own fighting plus ones and he recieved 50 xp for "defeating" a +1 minion. He's then invited to a level 50 mission againsts 50 and 53s.
He beats a 50 minion. He recieves.. 50,xp. He beats a 53 minion. He recieves .. 50 xp.

This is because, to prevent that kind of abuse and to keep the sk in the spirit in which is was intented (friends teaming across the levels)the game would be set to only allow the same xp as plus one.

So, it woulkd be impossible to get the xp for +4 or +5 therefore it would NOT be Plers paradise.

And as for oner 50 dealing with a map of 8 spawn, using 7 sked level 10s or 20s, you have to be really really good to do that and not have an untold number of deaths to the lower level (training io) players. Most people are nowhere near that standard.

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The level 1 guy finished the session at about level 8 I think.


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Now imagine that happening x7, a good half hours work.

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This is where my head needs rewiring cause those 7 would only get the same xp that they would get if they were operating a +1 mission on their own level.
The scenario i was describing was +5. And the bonuses were higher than if I completed an own level mission too.

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In my scenario, the worst case seenario that everyone is hitting me with, is being in a team against (scaled) + 1s getting xp relative to that.

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See above, you dont seem to understand the value of being able to PL 7 SEVEN people at the same time.

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Ok. I freely admnit to having a blindspot here.
I'm saying they wont be PLed at all because they will be recieving the same level of xp they would if under current conditions they were running their own level missions.

therefore, in my mind, apart from the possibility that one or two 50s can take a map quicker than the low level could in a team his own level, there would be little or no xp advantage to being sked.

Therefore, I dont think that sking for PLings sake would be anywhere near as it is now for instance. And that the one 50 7 low level scenario would hardly ever occur, cause its too much work for too little reward.

However, everyone and their dog is saying I'm missing the point.

I can only say on this issue, I really am missin it, We all got blindspots. I guess this is one of mine.

So I concede the point totally.