lionsbane_EU

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umm, just like too say that I was the lvl 40 brute in RV earlier today and i dont have aid self. I was using healing flames

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EEEppp. You`re kidding. Flames never wore me out like that before. How many weetabix you eat today?

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You can argue the same about any of the power pools though. Stamina, Acrobatics, Hasten, ALL give weighty advantages to your opponent. You just need to come up with effective tactics to counter their advantage.

EDIT: Grrr MaX!

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The funny thing here is that all I have have to do to level the playing field is run aid self myself. So it`s not like i`m fussing about the haves and the have nots.

To be truthful, one of my problems is I`m a pre I5 invul Tanker. Since then we`ve given up so much in the way of being conceptually accurate (i now dodge bullets as well as let em bounce off thanks to defence.) that it would grate to have to be even more anti thematic by pressing a little remote control.

It`s bad enough that we have to use tough to keep our S/l up but at least that keeps in the theme of being " invulnerable" if only against S/L damage.

The more in theme the game is the better I think we all like it.

Anyway, I never said that aid self in PvP was wrong, just that I personally think it`s wrong. Or, digging deeper, maybe it`s just wrong for certain melee sets. For instance, the blaster who mentioned he would be screwed without it has a valid point too.

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So duelling a brute with Healing Flames is fine but if a dominator has Aid Self, it's unfair??? Don't get it...

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Healing flames isn`t a pool power.

I feel the need to qualify my point here.

It `s one thing to play an AT with all it`s various powers. It`s a player choice. Even if there was one all powerful At and I fought him I wouldn`t complain against losing because I chose my char for a reason and I fought this AT knowing how tough it was.

So, yes, if you have mezzes, well I have unyeilding. If you have terrorise, well, hopefully I`m tough enough to take the punishment till it wears off. If you`re a healer and you can endlessly heal yourself...well the trade off there is that you`re unlikely to hit hard enough to rteally put me out.
we`re forever pulling out our own tricks to counter each others which is pretty much the way it should be. Some ATs own me. I own other ATs and so on.

But my issue is that aid self is a pool power. Pool powers shouldn`t be decisive like that because, as with the case of the SR scrapper (maybe myself if I`m honest) you feel you have to take it to keep up. And I don`t think pool powers should do that.

Honestly, in a one on one fight, aid self can be a massive advantage and imho, a pool power shouldn`t give that.

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Tankers are wusses! I pwnd several royally at the last official Brighton meet; with my PB too!

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Ahh but you weren`t up against Power Lord. (Dont run aid self do you?.)

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Rofl I think this is just a rant there nothing wrong with aid-self with my /SR scrapper it is a critial power to have.

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Well, in a way it is a rant I guess.
But should a pool power really be critical?

And yes, that applies to stamina too but that`s another topic..

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Also Tankers aren't famous for their PvP ability.

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Come here and say that!

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I would suggest that in PvP zones (including the Arena) everyones skills except Brawl are disabled and everyones health is set to the same amount. That should ensure that it's all properly balanced and give nobody reason to complain

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And was that your constructive addition to this debate?

I`m not talking about balance actually. I know the game can never be fully balanced.

On a personal level I don`t like Aid self because it doesn`t generally fit the super hero theme. In Pvp I don`t like it because the bearer of it seems to have a massive advantage against someoner who doesnt have it.

If my Tanker manages to bypass all your defences and downs you, that`s great. If you manage to bypass my invulnerability and down me thats more power to you.

But if one of us can endlessly throw up aid self every minute or so... not really a great achievement winning that fight then is there?

Of course, if we both have aid self, then we`re on an equal footing.

But is there any other pool power that gives the player so distinct an advantage in PvP?

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People who have it are sometimes harder to defeat - so the answer is "maybe"

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And so are people with shields... and with de/buffs... and... wait, let's just nerf them all!

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I thought about that point and my opinion is thst it`s not the same thing. The buffs etc you refer to are part of the AT set generally. And, you could argue they`re consistent with the super hero theme.
Plus, you balance out your powers against someone elses so it kind of levels out.

Aid self though (bear in mind i`m really highlighting PvP)to me, comes out differently.

To fight someone who at the touch of a button can regen a great portion of health ends up being almost pointless. And the fact it`s interupptable is almost irrelevent in solo PvP.

Maybe I feel it more than other ATs because, as a Tanker, my outright damage is limited so maybe I can`t quite hit hard/fast enough to deck someone before they fire the damn thing off.

But, aid self just seems to give my opponent an advantage that strikes me as unfair.

My only alternative is to take it myself and long haul them which, to me, would be a shame because I don`t feel the concept fits my char. (although that is one power I don`t really fits any char conceptually.)

What brought this on was a fight I had against a level 40 in RV.

I was beating him easily throughout the fight, yet every time I got close to dropping him he would employ aid self, no matter how much I tried to interrupt. In the end he chipped away at me after about 15 minutes of me having the advantage.

I just came away thinking, that given how dominant I was in the fight, and how dominant I was as a 50 it was just weird that he had this kind of "save me" button he could press, almost endlessly, until he finally managed to catch me. (in frustration I turned on unstoppable so my stamina stayed up. I was hoping if I hit him non stop he wouldnt be able to fire the damn thing up. I saved the drop but was a bit weak after that and he nailed me.)

Like I say, it`s just my opinion but yes, to me, aid self gives one a massive advantage in PvP.

I don`t have aid self. I primarily play a Tanker and found it to be counter intuitive.
I know I could get it but somehow it doesnt sit right.

BUT when I PvP, especially solo, no matter how well I`m doing, if my opponent has aid self, unless im really lucky,
I end up worn out and in the end they take me.

I`m clearly superior a lot of the time, easily winning the actual fight but they just keep popping aid self and eventually i run out of steam.

Something about that particular power just doesnt sit right with me because there`s very little super hero basis for it.

In standard teaming it`s one thing, especially as its interruptable, but in solo PvP, there is always a moment to fire it off and your opponent is up and running again.

I`m not saying it`s a cheat as such, and i definately arent implying that players who have it are cheating. I understand it`s a players choice and good luck to them. (unless I`m fighting them that is.)

I just am not sure it should really be an optional power (especially in pvp)in the first place. Or maybe it should be higher on endurance or offer less of a heal.

Am I alone here?

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AND the highest HP in the team, something which many people seem to forget. Even without any def/res/regen, the tank is still the most durable AT.

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The maths there dont stack. The reason we have more hp is because, by nature, we attract a large portion of the aggro, so get hit with more damage points.

But, in a large team, against the various damage types we`re vulnerable there is so much damage coming our way that the extra points are eaten up in a very short space of time.

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So, i`m sorry but ultimately, unless our opponent is S/L we simply cannot function as intended and other ATs can.

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Of course you can - just not without effort. If you're in a team there's usually at least one person who can buff you. There are inspirations, pool powers, IOs, temp powers, accolades; all of which can help you mitigate damage that your primary can't deal with.

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Of course we can. And do. But here`s my point.

I have an Invul/ energy melee Tanker and I have an Energy Melee/ Invul Brute.

Naturarily my Tankers invul is the primary which means it`s stronger than my brutes Invul. And Visa versa with the energy melee.

Let`s put them both up, in 6+ team against the CoT.

Neither types can (unbuffed) hold out against the firepower of the CoT BUT because my Brutes primary is energy melee, he fares much better. After all;
A) he hits much harder so the baddies fall before they can do too much damage

B) His job isnt necessarily aggro management anyway so he`s not going to take as many hits in the first place. (Tankers have gauntlet. Brutes don`t.)

Ok. So what that boils down to is that the brute, though less able to take hits from CoT, still does his job.

The Tanker simply cant. Not to a battle turning way anyway.

UNLESS, as you say, he`s buffed.

But buffs work on everyone! So, bearing in mind we dont hit as hard as other ATs, the team would theorectically be better served to put a scrapper or even a blaster in there and buff them! After all they have full use of their primary and have Aoe.

I`m not saying we cant function in those circumstances. I`m not saying we cant contribute. I`m saying that because our primary is decreased, other ATs can do our job better than we can. Almost any AT will be more effective than we are.

Now, put us against S/L and we are "the big man in the team" and full contributers.

This thread relates to the fact that an entire issue is going to be devoted to a type that will put us in the catagory I just described. So the percentage of times we fight and are fully effective will diminish severely.

How many other ATs are mitigated in such a way?

As I mentioned earily, can you imagine if scrappers had their damage decreased against an ever widening inventory of villians?

I see this as much the same thing.







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If you're running away from fights (metaphorically or literally) because you've *only* got ~30% RES to a damage type then you're really doing both yourself and your team a disservice.

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Just to set the record straight, I rarely , if ever , run. But, i am concious that, against non S/L types, however well I do, other fully functioning ATs, can do better than I can because they`re primary is not handicapped and mine is.

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In fact, unless you're a Dark Defender, Dark Scrapper or Warshade, you don't have any real Psi protection outside of Epic Pools or IOs

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These are not relevent Ats bcause it isnt their job to take huge amounts of damage in the first place.
that`s a Tankers job. And if we cant take these amounts then we cant tank.

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To be perfectly honest, if you can't cope with Tanking now, you probably will be screwed come I10, but the rest of us will be quite happy to carry on the way we are - I don't think anyone who has played with any of my tanks could accuse me of being a "3rd rate scrapper" under any circumstances.

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So what would you call a defender (healer) that couldnt heal? Or a troller that wasn`t controlling.

Every time you team and face CoT (for example) and don`t taunt em cauae you know you won`t be able to stand what theyre dishing out, then you`re denying the team the purpose for which you exist. It`s not your fault. After all, you`re more beneficial alive than dead. But, all you can really do against the CoT or other en/ele groups. is just do do damage, which any scrapper can do better.

So, i`m sorry but ultimately, unless our opponent is S/L we simply cannot function as intended and other ATs can.

this is slightly off the point. The real concern is that i10 will exacerbate the problem, and we will definately be the lower AT when it comes to battling the invasion, and thats on top of our current concerns.

I`m relating this to Invulnerable Tankers, but i suspect it could apply right across the AT.

To be effective we need to take aggro. It`s our job and it`s why we have gauntlet.

Back in the day, properly slotted we (past 32) were nigh on (by coincidence) invulnerable, except to end drainers, like carnies or sappers and of course, our big weakness, psionics.

So, if we were up against carnies and the like, we found we had to take a secondary role. After all, if we aggroed everything in sight, but that everything could wipe us as easily as anyone else... well we would be obliterated pretty fast, right?

We had to play a different game against these guys. We could manage, but we couldnt Tank.

Yet, without our ability to take the damage, what were we left with? Without our ability to take damage we were third rate scrappers at best, and there were plenty of first rate scrappers out there.

But none of that mattered.

Because MOST of the time, agaionst MOST foes, we were the big man on the team. So, to be up against those occasional foes that could damage us was almost ... a form of balance.

But now... well, lets face it, unless you face S/L you cant tank. What we do when we face all sorts of energy or elemental foes is hope for the best, that we can survive, because our resists are that delapidated. We become, in (imho) a too large proportion of the game, the totally useless space wasters, where virtually any other AT is superior too us, because we cant take the attacks. And, as I say , if we cant take the attacks (which our primary set is designed to do purely) then virtually every other AT, whos primary AND secondary sets CAN function to design will perform better than us.

But still, we still face, on balance, enough S/L to at least partly feel we`re doing the AT as we should. So, it`s manageable.

But what about I10?

I10 seems pretty hot from reading the current bites about it.
BUT

Between missions and TFs and random attacks, it`s like the rikti are to play far more in the game than now. So, given that we`re vulerable to psionics and therefore we cant tank, we now face a huge portion of the game, against foes where we cant take the damage. In other words where we cant do our jobs and hold the aggro.

It`s kind of like letting the scrappers do their job but against a large portion of the non player villians,they only can do half damage, or less.

This concerns me. It really comes down to why certain people play Tankers in the first place, rather than the more flashy sets. Our role is being eaten into more and more.

A while ago, the Devs stripped the Tanker to our absolute bare bones.

i now think it`s time they gave us some of those bones back.

Bear in mind 75 % of the game is S/L. And bear in mind psionics and end drain can cause Tankers a great deal of trouble with or without high resists.

So my question:
In what way would granting us our resists so that we can face energy and elements in a pro rata way to how we take S/L, unbalance the game?

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Hasten is really the only reason for a PvE tanker to take the Speed pool (SS is useful in PvP for melee ATs). Super Speed lacks vertical movement and tankers generally won't have any use for its "stealth" effect.

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true. But super speed has side advantages. You get hasten and superspeed in one pool power for one thing that means you can delve into pool powers a bit more. Which also means, if you`re taking hasten uin the first place, you actually gain a power in the long run.

plus, if you go the aid self route you can take whirlwind which is a great power to set off and launch AS relatively safely.

So all in all (assuming you have a vertical movement power like jump jet) I would argue that SS is probably the best travel power at least till the late 30s when footstomp can clear some space for you.

Having said that, my energy melee Tanker who definately would benifit from whirlwind, flies.

I like the graphics of flying. (so sue me.)

It comes down to do you want the most practicle Tank or the one you overall enjoy the most.

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Hasten does improve dps (-fight duration) and it in combo with an outside recharge boost makes dull pain perma allowing you the highest hit points you can get all of the time and atleast without a recharge boost something like 15 seconds from perma. Which is nothing.

You do have to be aware of your endurance to not allow it past a certain point so that haste doesnt detoggle you when it crashes. i think its 15 endpoints of the top of my head and i cant be geeky enough to check but its nothing compared to the benefits.

The return in damage and secondary effects over time terms far outweighs the end cost imo and is of great benefit especially if you feel more comfortable with extra hitpoints more often and contributing in damage as i do for a lower fight duration.

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I actually forgot to mention how hasten recharges defensive powers such as dull health and unstoppable. And taunt too.

Plus epic powers such as laser vision, which when fired in quick successive bursts (ala hasten) can be a real boon to a Tanker without any other substantial range.

To be honest, I rarely notice the endurance drop (although my SS Tanker does notice it because they fixed rage end drop.Still manageable though.)

So, my personal conclusion is that hasten, on an energy melee Tank, outstrips one with the aid self and tough/ weave combo. (Given that its unlikely you can afford all three.)

Just an opinion though and it is strongly biased because I like decking the bad guys. (hate to use the word scranker but...)

I would love to have aid self and tough together in my build but for that I`de have to drop hasten.

Just to mix things up a bit, what about the adage of attack being the first line of defence?

The OPs build doesnt allow for hasten.

With hasten up, (3 recharge) given that en/melee has two of Tankings hardest hitting attacks, you can do a whole lot more damage a whole lot faster, which of course decreases the weight of attacks hitting you. Not to mention, the faster you down the villians, the less likely they are to attack your team mates. (And the less your teammates have to take down themselves.)

Problem is, hasten will mean a pool power which means one of the current pool powers has to go.

There`s a certain amount of playstyle in this (I like to knock em down fast) but, on a sheer numbers basis, if two tanks took on an identical scenario, one with hasten, the other with the extra defensive pool power, who would the numbers favour?

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And I think all of us know that it depends on the specific toon in question if you get more mileage from the former or the latter.

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Hi. I`m the original poster.I asked the question for my Super strength/ invul Tanker.As it happens, I brought in whirlwind and since then footstomp. I found them to be excellent at holding off thebaddies long enough to (generally) fire off aid self. So it worked well.

My energy /melee / invul Tanker is slightly different.

With both sets I`m trying to find the best way to counter energy attacks.
In both sets I dropped the two resists (el and en) because, in the face of the damage we have to take when teamed, I find them (since i5 and Ed) derisable.

I wanted, ideally, to take tough. (this actually is my prefered choice for a theme point of view. I dont get off on healing damage. I prefer to take it in the first place.)

But all that does is increase my SL which, while nice, I don`t actually need.

I chose aid self for the SS Tanker really to see what it was like but felt it might be even more desirable for my energy melee Tanker because,in reality,because of Energy Transfer, En mel is the least invulnerable of the invul Tanker sets.

So if im up against circle of thorn (for example), my survivability is even less than my SS Tanker.
(I know energy transfer has a health trade off and from that point of view I`m cool about it.)

But for that reason, plus the fact you reclaim more health than en res or el resist protects against, I hit on aid self.

That`s the theory.

However, Energy melee does not have a knockback or aoe power that deflects enemies long enough to trigger aid self sufficently.

It makes it much tougher to use than on other Tank types or builds.

So I`m kind of in a dilemma.

Anyone out there able to offer me clarity?

Thx

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Okay, thanks everyone. Mind you I will be mostly soloing this character, so if aid self is more helpful when solo, I'd like to know. >_>

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You`ve got to be careful here. The problem is the en/ inv build itself.
See, if you use energy transfer (especially on hasten) then aid self is a good thing because it counters the 10% per hit health loss.

But, the problem with aid self on En melee Tankers specifically, comes from the fact there is no "knockback and stun " attack that can give you the extra second needed for a non interupted aid. (whirling hands doesnt really count here.It has little range.)

My SS Tanker does a footstomp and can trigger aid self almost every time.

My en/ melee Tanker also uses it, but with more mixed results for the reasons ive listed.

So, the conclusion has to be if youre soloing, as you say, then it should be fine. But if you do team it becomes more iffy, because en/ melee doesnt really have a sufficent aoe to give you those few seconds to fire successfully.

Thinking about it, it`s actually unfair that en/ melee doesnt have a decent aoe strike but thats another topic.

Advice needed please.
ok. I have Em/ invul Tank.
I decided to take Aid self and drop the resist eles.
The reason I took aids self is because I felt that if I lose the eles im better off because Tough doesnt cover non S/L.
Also, the Energy Tankers invul is a little harder to manage because of energy transfer.

So I figured aid self will cover the numerous 10% drops i make during a given melee.

The reality of having it though is slightly different.

Firstly I`m having trouble conceptually.

Then theres the fact in the heat of battle, despite 3 chrono wassits, it`s still hit and miss.

I guess it doesnt feel very Tankerish to me.

However, i want to do the right thing by the Tank. Sooo, you think I should get over my issues with it and persist or is there a better alternative?

Thanks

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I've found end reduction more useful than interrupt reduction on Aid Self. If you click the power and get interrupted, the power remains available, but you pay the full end cost. You can try cklicking it again. If you do this many times and get interrupted, the end cost is staggering. But in the end you do get healed. And the base interuuptible time on Aid Self is very short. Sure, you can reduce it furhter, but I'm not sure its worth it.

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This is a valid point. I`m going to experiment with that.
Thanks

You know, i saw this but the description for Chronometric is, and I quote, "heroes use this power to decrease the time needed to activate a power."

I read that to be a recharge enhancement. Thought it was odd there were two. LOL

Thank`s guys