lionsbane_EU

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As far as I'm concerned NC are not (to date) cutting the mustard. And they haven't demonstrated that they are capable of rising to the challenge that's coming.

And quite frankly, I'm starting to wonder that if these games can come forward with some pretty innovative ideas, why this one can't too. And no it's not all about the engine. It's about imagination.

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What innovative ideas? I haven't seen anything on DC online or Champions which has made me think "Wow. Revolutionary".

In fact Champions is so riddled with CoH IP still I've zero confidence in it at the moment. Especially after that interview / preview on Eurogamer last week.

DC Online looks shallow beyond belief so far, with a dumbed down console interface.

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This isnt meant to be about them, Carnie, its about us. But what about secret identities, arch enemies, etc etc.

I'm sorry but you cant tell me that this isnt lame.

I mean, what, you log on and can't wait to log off and on again to see how your career has progressed? I mean, please.

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/signed

CoX has gotten too easy for mr lately and this iwill be the straw that breaks the camles back

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Maybe Mr. Lately should wait and see what challenges the devs give us in I13?

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Let's fully understand what's happening here.

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It’s fantastic!” Joe enthused. “It feels like a new game. We’re doing what we want to do with the game and we’ve got all this support behind us. NCSoft is giving us the resources we need to really take this game where we want it to go.”


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So far so good. Exciting even. I certainly was enthused by the potential.

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Thus far, they have doubled the development team to about 40, and Mission Design is now a team of three instead of just a single person.

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Even better.

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“We have the freedom to plan, and we are actually planning multiple issues ahead. We’re able to get to all those little niggly things that could have been improved but we’ve never had the time to fix and polish, now we have the opportunity to not only bring more content to the game, we can smooth out the old wrinkles. It’s been really liberating.”

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Fabulous!

So where are we?

So far, by the time I13 comes out, (almost a year after NC bought the game from Cryptic) with 2 direct competing games on the horizon, they've brought CoV and CoH together (but havent united them as one game yet) they've added a few cool (3 for one insp , the notes etc)quality of life features, a few so so features, and are planning the mision creator which will be great for some players who use it, it will be ok for those that play it.

(after all at the end of the day after the novelty of playing player generated missions wears off you're left with exactly the same type of missions as we have now)

We have a bit of power ploriferation (whoopie)a few new missions and.. wait for it.. OFFLINE careers and xp.

Isn't the object to get the game to a stage where it can
a) match the diversity planned by the soon to be competition?

b) be engrossing and varied so more people stay ONLINE more often?

Nearly a year in and this is all they have come up with so far?

And yes. Between cutting debt to almost pointless levels and increasing the rate you level we're outlevelling content too quickly. (someone tell me why a mission cant match your level? Cause I cant see why not.)

Practically forcing people to create alts if they want to continue to play the game in some meaningful goal driven manner.

And now you can get a career OFFLINE and... earn xp???(wt****???)

Why oh why arent they looking at the game from the ground up, taking away the real obstacles that make some noob players quit or are making the game frustrating rather than challenging, (early Endurance levels for one), remove the pointless restrictions such as number of costumes, etc etc and then start looking at some genuine content that will really make us buzz.

I mean, what the heck is the point of allowing us to level to 50 so fast if there's no end game to support it?

I could go on and on. I am very disappointed with what I've seen so far.

As far as I'm concerned NC are not (to date) cutting the mustard. And they haven't demonstrated that they are capable of rising to the challenge that's coming.

And quite frankly, I'm starting to wonder that if these games can come forward with some pretty innovative ideas, why this one can't too. And no it's not all about the engine. It's about imagination.

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Hopefully, you'll be able to place additional named bosses like the Atta's Guards in the Atta mission.

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I do see the cool factor in designing missions but I have to ask:

Are they going to give us tools to help us differenciate the standard missions we do right now?

If not, how can we create missions that are more fun and original to play than we currently get on the live server?

And if we can do things/ create missions that are superior to the type that we currently recieve, then why the heck arent the devs serving them up to us already?

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Tanks doing an STF run and being followed by 3 controllers and 4 defenders..I mean [censored] was the tank for? Why not use a scrapper? A scrapper would be better surely? I love the no AT thing and love to find ways of no particular powerset needed as well.

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The answer to this is reallty the same one as the question raised by the poster.
The Tanker probably asked to join and they accepted because they weren't playing in the "scientific" way. They were just setting up a team made of bodies and it fell like that.

I see this taunt question all the time and it's a similar answer. Should Tankers have taunt? The question should never arise because it only has one answer.

Yes and no.

The boards are full of people who understand the mechanics of the powers. How invinces agg aura works, its range, tick time, guantlet and so on. And they play in a manner dedicated to theme. So they are happy to run around the map grabbing and regrabbing the aggro. They know when the blaster has taken the aggro off them and so on.

But there are others, probably not many of these boards but littered all over the game, who, like me, dont know or want to know such things and yet they want to Tank. And do their teams justice. Thats where taunt is an absolute must.

If you take me, I just play the game. I dont know how guantlet range is or how much damage I deliver over time etc. not numerically. I just look at what the power does and act accordingly.

So, if you, Shannon, had a team in Union and I had an identical one on Defiant and we were on te same mission, I'd need taunt to play to the same (or close) level of Tanking as you do without it.

I am simply too casual a player to fully appreciate the naunces of the sets overall aggro management. I know what it does but not necessarily how or why or what.

Taunt though, is auto hit and tells me who ive taunted and who I havent and, without great effort that my playstyle doesnt allow me to exert all the time, I can pretty much tell if I'm holding the aggro or not because its effect last longer.

Taunt is the "dummys guide " to Tanking. There's nothing wrong with that. The game is designed to play it in as complex or casual manner as you wish and still achieve a reasoonable result as long as you are dilligent.

So without Taunt, the casual Tanker can't operate in a manner as befits the AT. Whereas, an experienced oplayer who understands literally HOW the set or rather aggro management works, can do just as well, if not better, without it.

So as I stated. Yes a Tanker needs it. No a Tanker doesnt.

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[*Takes Lionsbane aside for a quite word*

Err have you never heard of a little light flirtation the moment the yellow faces disapear I know I've gone to far and yes I don't think anyone likes being 'belittled' but perhaps your directing your angst against the wrong guy here.

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Fair dinkum

By the way, i actually agreed with some of your points but I saw the direction the thread was headed in and I promised GR to calm down a bit...

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[Says the girl with the highest post count and shortest posts

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Has Golden_Girl ever actually made a post which exceeds three lines?

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Yes

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Bet it had something to do with animated hair though

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Don't mention A.H! She hasn't brought it up in ages! Shhhhhhh!

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Sorry my apologise it did almost make her string a sentence together though

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As someone who didnt like being belittled yourself, youre kinda throwing stones arent you? And she posted quite conversantly just recently.

And vet SG leaders do invite and their SGs arent full of alts. Or mine isnt anyway. (Well about 25% are alts.)

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Some did, some didn't -- same as for heroes that doesn't use weapons. Wolverine has killed, as has Colossus and Rogue, even though they don't use weapons. The Shadow shot to kill -- The Phantom usually shot to disarm. It's not the weaponry that decides if you're a boy scout or a gritty fighter.

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Well, yeah but the later two are golden age which doesnt strictly count. And Colossus and Rogue dont (didnt ) go round with guns and swords as a rule.

Those weapons are kind of lethal and its a bit odd that they feature heavily in a super hero game. I mean, heck, even the devs say we "defeat" not kill, which is kind of hard when ive just dual sliced someone.

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Completely agree with you. It's the sole reason I refuse to make a Hero who uses weapons.

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Zorro, Golden era Sandman, Daredevil, Wonder Woman, The Phantom, Thor, The Shadow, Snake-Eyes...

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I think you'll find he means lethal weapons. WWs lassoo and Daredevils billy club dont quite fit the bill.

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I cant imagine anything more anti thematic than dual blades for instance. I mean, what, we hitting the bad guys with the flat of em all the time?


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Katana and Broadsword got there first tho, LB :/

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True.

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I know what I'm going to get for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Roman zones, shields, dual pistols... this is a super hero MMO isn't it? Yanno.. people with SUPER POWERS?

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Shields actually are part of super hero lore but I have noticed this myself.

I cant imagine anything more anti thematic than dual blades for instance. I mean, what, we hitting the bad guys with the flat of em all the time?

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Either way we "lose"

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Wow, some complaints are really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

"If people enjoy the content they're given we lose! "

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If it is only a small percentage then yes the majority do lose :P

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No. We win. if only a relatively few people use it then, as mentioned, the servers are pretty much unaffected in terms of activety.

BUT, it only takes a relatively few imaginative players to create compelling missions, which benefits everyone.

We win. On that point at least, we win.

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Also the Devs don't have to pay us for it - in fact we'll be paying them (our subs) while we create content - win-win for the Devs really.

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And you never know, someone who is especially good might be offered a job

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Sounds pretty clever to me actually. Good luck to em and I hope it works.

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what its only works for 30 days...that is weak i thought it was like the jump pack that you kept and had on every toon?

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So did I. Surely they arent literally talking about 1 flight pack that you got to pay over 20% the amount of your entire subscription cost for???

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In reality there will be lots of content and the dev’s have done things correctly by setting up the new zone last issue and adding lots of missions this issue. The mission designer is a massive bit of the game and we, as users, probably don’t appreciate how much work has gone in to it. We will only realise the full effect of this release months later when there is loads of user content to play.

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From that point of view I think they've done the right thing as far as meeting the CO/DCO challenge is concerned. By releasing the designer next issue and holding off on new zones, etc..., they've given players time to familiarise themselves with adding new content and start building up a decent library of good stuff. Then as the competitors come out they can release new NC stuff (I13/14) and have the player content there to impress people.

If they'd held off on the designer they'd be facing the competitors with old NC content and a player-designed setup no one had really got up to speed with, and that would be a far weaker position.

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I take your point but they havent added anything new or groundbreaking, (apartfrom the mission creator) when those new games will be bursting with them. The offline career hardly counts as you got to be offline to use it.(?)
Dont fully understand that one. Maybe its just setting the scene for something bigger in the future, although positron said it wasnt secret identities. We'll see.

If this were any other time, then yeah a decent issue.
But now? This wont be out till Oct/ Nov, leaving them very little time to really step up to the plate against fresher, newer competition.

I'm reserving final judgement until we know fully about the "loads more" but right now, mission creator aside, I am distinctly unimpressed.

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The mission creator and its UI were stolen from WoW, clearly. Educate yourselves on MMO history, nubs.

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I couldn't care less who created it as long as it works for us.

In theory this could be tremendous as I'm pretty positive there are bright sparks out there that will really create some awesome missions. But, and it's a big un, that depends on the tools the devs allow us to use.

One other thing, is it possible that we have access to the usa custom missions and vica versa? Now that would really rock. We use the same auction houses...
Can it be done?

Tanker. Look at the aggro I absorb on these boards- and how little damage it actually does to me.

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I recently stopped playing my invul. I was going to reroll a willpower but this may make me stick with it. But I have nvr cared bout the -5 def if I'm invul I should't be trying to dodge hits. It's all bout the res

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Def doesn't have to be dodging. I could be a bullet that hits you and just bounces off doing nothing because you're so tough.

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That's resist. Defence is dodging. Check the animation.

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It really does depend on the character I'm playing - if I had to point to any EB as an all-round nightmare then I guess Calystix and Infernal are as close as it gets to EBs I dread facing. I've had more characters that struggled with them than ones that didn't, mainly because of the summons and their own high spike damage. Positron and Stheno are often nasty too and are EBs I'm certainly wary/respectful of. I also usually find Silver Mantis tougher than any of the other Arachnos EBs.

But most EBs that I find tough on one character will be easy for others. And honestly even the tough EBs aren't that hard to solo using either an Enrage/Luck overdose or a T9 godmode (or Demonic/EyeOfTheMagus) if available - and often I don't even need that. Never had to resort to Shivans to solo anything.

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Well, it stands to reason that a given char should be able to beat some EBs and not others I think. Same as some villains are out of reach of certain heroes in the comics, due to their particular powers, whereas other heroes of a similar power level can mush em.

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My impression of "thematic sense" in CoH is that it can require a lot of suspension of disbelief due to the nature of the game mechanics. There's often no right or wrong, just different viewpoints.

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An interesting point, worthy of its own thread. For me, I think concept and theme are key to a game like this. I think every effort should be made to make a power look like its in tune from a consistency point of view, even if game machanics require that, in the background, its actually something quite different.

Its all about buying the game and thinking right: I want to be this kind of hero or that kind of hero. The experience should match, at least to a degree, your expectation of what the power is supposed to do. (or, more to the point, a hero with those powers)


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Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing what changes will be made to the passives. And if there are secondary effects added, I'd be very happy as endurance drain and debuffs in general are dangerous holes in the Invulnerability defenses.

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See we differ here because I expect invul to be invulnerable (up to quite a high level) and accept the game will create obstacles such as slow to "balance" my levelling progress. I dont regard them as holes in invuls defences because, although I take your point, I personally see those types of attacks as being outside invuls remit.

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He thinks that one reason it underperforms is people skip the passives,

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He isnt making sense when he says that. By definition he's saying the set would perform better if people did take the passives, as they stand now. I think he's looking at his spreadsheets again, which worries me, because over the last three years Invul Tankers would have picked up on that if that was the case in a real life gaming scenario.The fact they haven't is game set and match on that point and its odd he's trying to point out otherwise.

The passives are virtually worthless.

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so he is going to make them more interesting by adding secondary effects. e.g. slow resist to Resist Elements, Energy Drain resist to Resist Energies, and def debuff resist to Tough Hide.

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As much as I would love a resist against slow or energy drain, I hope he isnt thinking along those lines. And I'd have a problem understanding why they would go that route at all. There is nothing about being "invulnerable" that woiuld prevent an opponent slowing you down or draining energy so that would make no thematic sense. Better to buff the resists and be done with.

What makes a set attractive is fairly subjective but I dont think anyone ever expected anything other from invulnerability than to be invulnerable. Maybe noit to the old levels (i wish) but if you treat the term as a relative one, then the invulnerability you have should be better spread across the board. Cause like the posters in the usa say, thats all the set does.

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He also recognises that it is difficult to fit many larger mobs into the radius of Invince, so that may get increased.

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Its a bloody good point too.

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The other thing he could do is remove the resistance from Unyelding along with the -def, and share it out to the passives.

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Again, because that handicap was put in place when Invul was way more powerful than now, strictly speaking it shouldn't be spread across anything cause then all you're doing is creating a zero operation. Replacing it with an effect that means the bottom line remains the same.
And the -def is currently a handicap too many.

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What if the Tankers taunted but only received the lions share but not all the aggro?

That way the Gm would still be mitigated by the Tanker but would be a threat to everyone on the team attacking.

I also think that if you are defeated you shouldnt be allowed back into the fight for a penalty period of maybe 2 or 3 minutes.

Dying really isnt much of a big deal at the mo but it should be laid out that 2 or 3 deaths can cause problems for the remaining team..

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Lol... so damage classes will be able to hti the GM once or twice between each tanker taunt just to not overaggro?
Secondly, a tanker can lose aggro as it is now if i go all out.

Then die and not being able to fight in 3 mins? you do know that a GM often doesn't last that long. Specially if more then one group is attacking it.

Specially condsidering their insane regen rates.

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errmmmm er ok.

Firstly, my earlier post makes mention of a GM being able to hit harder and faster, making it a longer fight.

Secondly, you are totally correct, if there is but one tanker fighting the GM. If there is more than that in this huge ensomble then your damage dealer has permission to hit more than once or twice because the Tankers combined taunts means no one else will get a look in aggro wise.

And thirdly, simple basic logic does suggest that if a few people are dead and cant get back into the fight straight away, that means that those fighting wil find the going tougher... and the risk of being defeated will be much greater. Those remaining will not hit quite so hard and ... the fight, provided the monster hasnt won, lasts longer.

But its nice that my post brought a smile to your face.

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Also, to throw out an idea I had earlier this week (bearing in mind I know this will never happen )

Replace Dull Pain with Instant Healing
Divide the HP boost from Dull Pain into the 3 Res passives

TADA!

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Got no prob with that, at least in theory. Don't know how that would play out but I've never felt dull pain was thematically suited to invulnerability in the first place.

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Biggest fear is what will we get in exchange for that tbh since an inv with more def and more res on passives looks quite overpowered to me

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Edit: Wait, any link to this? There's nothing about passives on OP's quote

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Blimey. You people need linkies for everything? I'm not likely to have made that up am I?

But... ta da!

He doesnt mention passives definitively. But as he has a list of 5 improvements its likely passives are amongst them because in their current state they make invul a lopsided and unthematic (and some would say, unattractive) set.

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So far, it looks as if the passives are gonna be granted the most changes/buffs, by adding secondary effects of some or other kind that has not yet been disclosed.

So while Im positive towards these changes, I am actually a bit worried they will be of the kind that will require me to use a respec to add one or two (already have rpd).. atm im quite happy with my build. At least for the purposes of tanking, PvP is another matter..

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They tend to give free respecs when they announce changes that require rejigging of ATs.

Quote directly from Castle:

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I added 5 lines to my todo list today, all addressing issues with Invulnerability. They'll likely be in I13, assuming I get approval. Yes, this means the -Def in Unyielding Stance might go away.

Again...pending approval, I13, don't take this as a promise, etc, etc.

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I know it has to be approved but I have to say...FINALLY!

now I'm really looking forward to I13..