james_joyce

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There's really not much to explore in WoW unless you're the appropriate level for the content there which means you'll end up there to begin with.

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Heh, that's a good point. Fair enough.

I think the issue is that creating POIs like that, because it's art, is one of the most resource-intensive parts of development. So they don't have the resources to just create a POI that's exclusively for exploring and doesn't tie in to content at all.

I'm some combination of acheiver/explorer, so my personal exploration urge is best satisfied by directed content. It would feel like a waste to me to have some really cool thing sitting out in the middle of nowhere that's never used by the content. And actually, CoX does that in a couple places (the crashed pirate ship in Nerva, for example). Not many, though.

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The only problem with that in WoW is there isn't really anything to explore.

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Really? I feel like there's tons to explore in that game. The whole game is littered with little POIs and open-world dungeons that make it really interesting, IMO.

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Honestly, this is my opinion too. The only thing wrong with CoX instances is that the vast majority of them are a random set of hallways filled with loitering foes connecting a few rooms, also filled with loitering foes, using one of 5 or so tilesets. They don't look like labs or offices, they look like purposeless hallways and rooms connected in an erratic manner and decorated to resemble something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an actual office building or lab.

The best instanced maps in the game are the ones that actually look like something instead of a decorated simple maze. Most of these happen to be outdoor instances, I'd like to see more maps designed to look like something real like shopping malls, grocery stores, schools, libraries, museums, etc. Not just based on the tileset, but based on the layout.

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I'll drink to that.

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What if, when you reached the Freak HQ, you could choose whether to explore it in the open world or as an instance? Then everyone could be happy (except the people who want to force other people to play their way, anyway).

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I'm not sure if it would make sense to have the inside of the Freak HQ be non-instanced... that would cause a lot of the same problems I mentioned with instanced content before, or just really limit the kind of content the devs could stuff in there. Plus it would cause EQ syndrome, where supposed stronghold of every enemy race was stuffed to the gills with players, which just seems silly. I was talking about the building itslef - 1) it should be non-random, so that every time you get the quest to go there, you always go to the same place, and 2) that would allow them to make it look interesting, with interesting features surrounding it.

But as far as running into annoying players, that is one of the beauties of instanced missions, and why non-instanced content shouldn't be overused. I just don't think we use it enough. But yeah, I guess if you're that annoyed by random players, then you might not like any non-instanced content at all. But I do think it makes for a stronger and more appealing game.

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I think there is room for some more open world missions in CoH -- there is a little bit, but not enough.

I agree with others that KS (kill stealing) and camping aren't fun, but there is something to be said about doing missions in the open world -- it's easier to run into others who are doing your mission and start a team that way (to avoid kill stealing).

More variation on the mission doors would be a good thing for CoH...

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QFT... Instanced content is great, but I feel that CoX overuses instances. On the other hand, open world content is great, but most other MMOs overuse it as well. We could stand to have more open world content for sure - they just have to be careful not to make the same mistakes that other games make. So you should never have to wait in line to rescue/kill/click on a thing - either don't put those types of quests into the open world, or use phasing so that each person sees his own copy of the thing.

One of the things I think WoW does nicely is have unique and interesting landmarks in the open world that quests require you to interact with:
- check out the beached sea monster
- steal some stuff from that weird village down there
- explore that pirate ship down there
and so on.

We could do similar things here - create unique landmarks in the world that missions send you to interact with or investigate. And instanced missions could follow from a lot of those missions. For example, investigate Frostfire's lair - a static building with ice patches around it with some specific guards out front. In fact, a lot of things would be made possible just by putting mission entrances at static doors instead of random. Maybe the Freak HQ has some funky machinery out front, or some specific guards posted. Maybe that CoT boss is at the instanced end of a non-instanced cave system with a unique look and feel.

So I think the idea of open world content is great, but it has a few basic flaws in most MMOs that the devs can avoid easily.

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Yes, I'd heard of that one, but that makes the dialog trigger too early. In this case, I'm not seeing the dialog trigger at all. I tried putting it in active and inactive for both the target and the group around him, but no dice. I'll play with it some more. Maybe it was just a fluke.

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Was it a friendly boss? I was having a lot of trouble with friendly boss dialog. Same with friendly captive surrounding group.

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For some reason, the dialog doesn't seem to trigger, ever. I'm not sure what's up with that.

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Known bug... inactive dialog proximity seems to be the same as active dialog proximity for certain detail types.

It's really annoying, too.

A natural history museum

An art museum

A library

A mall

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Question: If I make a custom group of civilians, and give them no attacks, will they try to brawl the players if I use them as an "enemy" group to fill the spawn points?

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I don't even think the game will let you do that. If your custom group is set to civilian, it can't also be set as the base enemy group on the map. It can only be used for non-combat details like allies, captives, and escorts.

To do what I think you're after, I'd suggest filling your spawn points with patrols of friendly custom enemies.

There's actually a small office map I stumbled on that works pretty well for this - it only has one branch on the first floor that circles back on to the main line.

I just have Leandro's tool open right now, but the map name is maps/missions/v_abandoned_office/v_abandoned_office_30/v_abandoned_office_30_layout_02.txt

so, villains abandoned office, small, possibly map #2?

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Where is the RedName citation for this?

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I believe the red name quote on pulled maps being reintroduced was in the beta forums, unfortunately. I agree they should make a statement on it just to clarify.

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But due to the absolute (and inexcusable) silence from all devs (though they have time to talk about still retroactively banning people and cheese baskets,) we have no idea whether they are actually going to replace/return these maps at all.

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Completely agreed there. The devs really should at least step up their patch notes policy on removed maps to give us a head's up, if not outlining why the map was removed and when we can expect to see it again. Same thing with any potentially arc-breaking change to the MA.

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Oh man another one bites the dust? This will ruin my hubby's mish completely...hard to have armageddon without burning things.
sigh.

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To be clear, these maps aren't intended to be removed permanently. They're removed, bugs fixed, and reintroduced. The only thing is I have no idea how long it takes them to fix, so no clue when it'll be back.

Here's hoping they get them back in for I15.

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Yeah, the spawning with guards is the tough part. Trying to work the story around the limitations of the system, in yet another facet. (I hope the Nerva jungle map comes back. It figures prominently in the end of the arc.)

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They took out the Primeva map??

pretty sure this is a known bug. I think it has to do with the boss firing up any toggles or click defense powers they have before you get to them, thereby interrupting their animation. I haven't played around with it too much, but try modifying the boss's powers so they only have attack powers (if possible) and see if that does it. Someone else mentioned it could be because of auras. But either way, I'm pretty sure the devs know about it. Unfortunately, unless it's easy to fix it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would get really high priority from them.

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The fact is we all know what "exploit" actually means, just like we all know what "torture" really means.

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The only practical definition of "exploit" I can think of: "Exploit" means whatever the devs want it to mean.

It's a more useful definition than "statistical advantage" at least.

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Exploit:
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1 To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
2 To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See synonyms at manipulate.

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We're going with #2. Just because we don't know the precise point at which leveling speed triggers the devs' scrutiny, that doesn't mean it could be at any point at all, and since Positron used the phrase, "worst of the worst," it's probably a good deal higher than anything you've achieved outside the MA.

The prevalence of bipolar thinking is getting to me. I think I have to accept that people are just steamed up and not willing to acknowledge a middle ground right now.

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... figuring out how to spawn chained objectives relatively near each other on a large map.

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I don't think that's possible, unfortunately; outdoor maps don't have any notion of front/middle/back like inside maps do. (I mean, the concept is there, but every spawn point is labeled both "front" and "back" so they're all equivalent.)

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But we're talking about sewer maps, no?

Neat idea, but I think it'll be tough to pull off well. I'd play it.

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Can clicking on a NPC or glowie be used to spawn another glowie

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No, collection details currently can't be chained to another detail.

Actually, I've been wondering about the possibility of creating a single-mission arc on a large map that conveys a full story using only dialogue and some clues. The biggest challenge would be either making it non-linear or figuring out how to spawn chained objectives relatively near each other on a large map. The sewers seem like they're ripe for the possibility of conveying the entire thrust of the Vahzilok story arc in a single mission. Not sure if the tools we have now are good enough to do such a thing, but I wonder. Being able to chain glowies would help, being able to control ambush composition would help, and being able to more accurately select spawn points would help. Seems like it's worth a try now, though, and it would accomplish both goals.

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When you get different numbers of people on the team, don't extra spawn points get populated?

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Not to my knowledge - I believe it just clusters more dudes around the same spawn point.

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And I suspect there is some randomness to how it allocates who goes where within the "front" category.

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Depends on the map. Some maps are extremely reliable (e.g. cargo ship maps), others are completely random (e.g. most outdoor missions). I found that office-to-cave maps have bleed-over between the sections, probably some others too.

Personally, I'd say that if your map behaves for you, fill all the front spawns with dead dudes and keep your enemies in middle and back. Of course the player can still kite enemies back to your corpses, but I think that's the best you're gonna do.

I'm pretty sure the unconscious animation is the closest you'll get, either with the lone ally or with the boss ally. In both cases, they'll stand up if the enemy gets too close, which I'm not sure can be avoided. I heard about a mission in another thread that pulled this off, but they never told me which mission so I couldn't check it out myself, and it sounded like they put the "dead" bodies in the front, and the enemies in the back, making it unlikely that they'd cross each other.

The only other thing I can think of is a captive with the enemy group set to ally, but I don't think you can change a captive's animation, and you'd have live allies besides.

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I may be reading too much into Positron's follow up MA Abuse statement, but it looks like 3 levels per hour may be the benchmark to consider.

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I don't think levels/hour works as a metric since XP per level isn't constant.

same here. Weirder still, when I log in to the villains side, the inner part of the forum has the heroes theme... only the outer part (header with animation and the thin border around the content) is villains.

Here's what I think based on Posi's statement:

None of the things mentioned in the OP are abuse, not even when used all at once. Posi said they would be rolling back rewards achieved through exploits, and none of those things are exploits. If there's a critter whose XP is out of whack, like the comm officers were, or that doesn't fight back, like the Snake Eggs, then those are exploits. If someone finds some map oddity that lets them kill things without getting hit, that'd be an exploit. Nothing you describe is like that. Nothing you described could take you from 1 - 50 in 3 hours, or anything approaching that.

Posi's statement did not imply that he was targetting farmers or PLers - only those that use exploits to rocket through levels. Keep farming and PLing if you want, just don't use exploits.

Yes, we should have a clearer definition of what an exploit is.

We'll see if I'm wrong.