hedgehog_NA

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What gets me is that evidently most of the people who are really upset by this change have figured out a way to play that most players never even think of or can't afford and also allegedly are so smart in how they play that their pets rarely get slowed due to them having parsed every possible battle configuration. No doubt they feel that the game is being hopelessly dumbed down for the great unwashed masses and I can see their point. Then again they are so smart that they will undoubtedly figure out fun new ways to exploit bugs that the clueless Devs don't even realize exist so I don't know what they are worried about.

In any case they do not represent the vast majority of players but are rather a small and very vocal minority that nevertheless probably have the power to make the Devs pull their hair out in frustration with their apparent expectations of perfection or near perfection from a video game.

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What gets me is people that cant read. And people that fail to understand the it just isnt the pet owners being nerfed. Ice tankers were not exploiting anything when their recharge slows affected pets.

This is the EM nerf all over. The devs dictate how it will be, there are a lot of angry posts and dev apologists going back and forth, and in the end, the change goes into effect with no real input from the players. Face it, the devs know they can make a change like this and just ignore the forums for a couple of weeks. The players will gripe and keep on paying any way.

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.... how are Ice Tankers nerfed? The only power I can think of that would be effected is Ice Patch..... do the aura powers count as pets?

And The EM Change is the Acro change all over again. And the Acro Change is the Smoke Grenade Change all over again. And the Smoke Grenade Change is...... ad infinitum. There will be a bunch of players who will cry doom until the next nerf rolls in and the whole process repeats itself. Again, and again, and again, and again.... many of it prob the same people who after every nerf declares that the sets they enjoyed are now completely unplayable (like seriously MM's unplayable now? oh noes! You won't be able to solo Av's nymore! ) and completely ignore the fact that easily the majority for the most part got along fine and the sets will most likely be fine after the change.

But of course that completely destroys the d00m and the point if people say "yeah, the changes suck... but for the most part we will be okay".... so instead we need the whole standard a) I HATE THE CHANGES b) sex x/y is unplayable forever, c) people who disagree with me are dev buttkissers/apologists/etc., and d) I'm right, so you have to be wrong.

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Changes sucking and doom are 2 different things. I never predicted doom. dogs and cats, living together...

But that ice tanker that goes up against your mm in pvp...part of his mitigation are recharge slows on your pets. they arent there now. none of the powers in cox exist by themselves. there are consequences to changes such as this.Maybe the effect of this is ok, but it needs to be looked at. Yes the devs make mistakes. They are after all, human. You anti-doom police assume that anyone against a change are dev haters and doom mongers.

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What gets me is that evidently most of the people who are really upset by this change have figured out a way to play that most players never even think of or can't afford and also allegedly are so smart in how they play that their pets rarely get slowed due to them having parsed every possible battle configuration. No doubt they feel that the game is being hopelessly dumbed down for the great unwashed masses and I can see their point. Then again they are so smart that they will undoubtedly figure out fun new ways to exploit bugs that the clueless Devs don't even realize exist so I don't know what they are worried about.

In any case they do not represent the vast majority of players but are rather a small and very vocal minority that nevertheless probably have the power to make the Devs pull their hair out in frustration with their apparent expectations of perfection or near perfection from a video game.

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What gets me is people that cant read. And people that fail to understand the it just isnt the pet owners being nerfed. Ice tankers were not exploiting anything when their recharge slows affected pets.

This is the EM nerf all over. The devs dictate how it will be, there are a lot of angry posts and dev apologists going back and forth, and in the end, the change goes into effect with no real input from the players. Face it, the devs know they can make a change like this and just ignore the forums for a couple of weeks. The players will gripe and keep on paying any way.

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Again, this wasn't done because they were over preforming. It was done because they were broken.

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Please explain to me how casting Speed Boost on Animate Stone was "broken," and how making Speed Boost do nothing for Animate Stone but raise run speed is "fixed." Because I'm not getting it.

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It wasn't. No one said it was. It was caught in the crossfire. Castle's already said this wasn't really what they wanted. But the only other alternative to fixing what they wanted to would have resulted in a much worse situation.


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Also, insert standard rant about using "broken" as a rationale for game changes, since it's purely subjective and unverifiable, logically equivalent to "because the game bible says so."

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Er, what is and isn't broken isn't really subjective OR unverifiable.

Does it work X way: Y/N?

Is it suppose to work Y way: Y/N?

If Y to both. Is broken.

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For example, if Castle says the PvE damage levels on Flares and Blaze are going to be switched because the game bible says Flares is intended to do more damage than Blaze, would you just accept the fact that they're "broken?"

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The argument is illogical. The "Game Bible" as you describe it doesn't exist. If you mean the one I outlined above. Well, that one wouldn't encounter a situation like this. For the most part, the Devs have provided adequate explanation and reasoning behind all of the changes I've questioned. The change you've suggest above doesn't follow any logic.

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was the pain of the fix appropriate to the amount of "broken". IE, you have an ingrown toenail, do we amputate your foot? If the original broken was of minimal impact and the fix has major negative impact, do you still fix it? or do you wait for something better to come along?

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Why all the hub bub about this? Doesn't the lack of pet recharge buffing pretty much even out considering they can no longer be slowed? Given that and the fact that at least thugs have better AI now this is clearly a buff and not a nerf at all.

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tell that to the people trying to slow the mm pets that are attacking them. Is that ice tank getting a buff? I think not.

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Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed.

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Known? Yes. Statistically significant (as in, a noticeable blip in datamining), no. That came later.

[/ QUOTE ]What do you mean statistically significant? Its either you know its going to effect recharge or it isnt. You dont need datamining to know that. Just what exactly were you guys shooting for on this? Is it that you all didnt expect or want it be effected by IOs and +recharge powers but having it just effected by +recharge powers was ok? Are you saying the only way to fix it was to just to disallow all recharge instead of just saying it can just gain only the buffs on the caster? All the datamining did was just prove the powers were subpar and the main way people got past that was with all the extra slotting. To me it would make sense to fix the powers in addition to this fix to all pets you are doing. But I got the feeling the datamining is saying the power is overpowered.

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It means they knew that it was happening. But didn't know how much of an impact it would have on the game as a whole.

"Pets recharge is affected? Eh, it'll be fine"

*one datamine later*

"HOLY CRAP, look at these numbers!"

Though perhaps not QUITE like that. You get the idea

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will the mainly insignificant effect it had on the game come anywhere close to the effect the fix will have on the game? Not being able to debuff pets looks to be much bigger than not having recharge inherit.

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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?

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Castle, if this is true, then the patch note is an outright lie. The patch note claims:
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This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.


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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.

I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.

I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.

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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.

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Fine. I guess all has been said then. LS will stay nerfed and we will wait a buff that might never happen ever since it is "judged" overpowered.

This would not be the first time that i abandon characters and move to something else. I just find it amusing that it is one of my character that i thought was not especially powerful that got the nerf bat this time. So, i will just go play with my scrappers and VEATS, quite happy of the good fortune i have in the end.

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You can store yours next to my em tank. Once a toon becomes unfun, it isnt worth even logging them on.

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So, that’s the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.

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You could implement the status quo. Somehow we've gotten by for almost five years now with the players being pretty happy with it. Now it's a crisis demanding a change? Not just a change but a detrimental change.

You're not improving the game with this change. If you need some constructive ideas to fill your time with, every single AT forum on these boards has lists of things that really are broken and can be addressed without nerfs. How about knocking that stuff out instead of throwing yet another "it's for your own good even though it's detrimental" spin job at us.

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I'd be happy if my Bruiser and Grave Knights would go into freaking melee w/out forcing them w/ macros.

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if they fix yours, I want bots fixed. but since that would be beneficial to players it wont happen.

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Castle,

Is this affecting Controller pets as well? From the other thread it appears everyone else is assuming it does. I am worried about my Fire Imps. As far as I know they have only one attack. If they have another attack, I am not aware of it since it all looks the same. If this does affect Fire Imps, do you plan on giving them another power so they benefit from the cycling as this fix is intended to provide? Or do you believe Fire is still too powerful because of Kinetics?

Do you consider this fix a benefit or nerf to Fire Imps in particular? Do you see DPS going up/down/staying the same for all pets after this change?

As far as Phantasm, I do not see this having any benefit because I have no recharge boosts for him on my Ill/Emp. He just gets Clear Mind sometimes and always gets Fortitude. In his case I specifically took Team Teleport to get him close to mob(either because he started firing early or the knockback from Power Blast knocked them out of ET range)so he would fire off Energy Torrent else he stays backs and uses Power Blast and Decoy until the battle is over. Its an endurance drain I could do without having to maximize DPS because the pet cannot use all his powers effectively.

Thanks for listening.

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Give them time. In 2 or 3 years they can datamine and find out if there are any problems. They still have 4 or 5 more currencies to develop in the game. Reward control must be maintained. Look how well they fixed Em after they gutted it.

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Yet, first impressions are the most important. MA arcs are not like regular game content. We have more of a choice about whether we do them. Game content we have to do, if we want what follows. I can't count how many times I've rescued Fusionette in the Faultline arc, because that arc is a good way to get the Ouroboros badge before you're high enough to just go to Ouroboros. If we could START with the actual time travel mission, I'm sure a lot of people would.


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I agree with this to a certain degree but I feel that you can only get a 'cosmetic' first impression with CoX missions. You walk in the door and the only judgment you can really make is based on what you initially perceive e.g. map and mobs.

You need to play the mission for a few minutes before you can really rate it. 30 minutes maybe too long as some missions can be completed by this time perhaps 15 minutes.

As for the comments this would be a nice to have option but it maybe open to more abuse enabling players to type whatever they like. I think it most likely you will just have an opportunity to mark it out of 5 for example. Its quick, easy and will minimize abuse.

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Lets see, a mission that would be easy to make. All the pretorian AV's intermixed with 8 fake nems, with sniper support, 8 master illusionists, Rikti maguses and supporting mentalists/drones, KOA bosses, sappers and gunslingers. Add in the massed ambushes of roman EB's and you have a 1st room that would be well nigh impossible to survive. How long do you have to beat your head on the wall before you give it a big thumbs down?

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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.

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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?

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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.

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Hmm...Interesting response as I never had a moral compass waiver after doing a KHTF and waiting 3 hours to do another or popping on another toon doing them back to back etc...Yet this was called exploitation... Hmm.

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If this affects your moral compass in any way, you probably need therapy. My moral compass is reserved for things like murder,theft, [censored],assault...you know things that are morally unacceptable. Not getting merits in an online game.

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Hey Posi brought up moral compass not I. Like I said I never had my moral compass effected by doing TF's within the specified time limits and rules set by the devs in the game.

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I agree with you. The devs created the world and the rule set. we live within that. When the players show creativity and thought and develop a strategy the devs didnt, they get nerfed and called exploiters. The fact that you could shoot a rikti portal and let it despawn was programmed by the devs. they knew perfectly well that was how it worked. When people used that they were called exploiters. But the code was acting EXACTLY as it was written. It was not a bug. the term exploiter has been overused and twisted. I halfway expect to see Sen. Mcarthy say "I have a list of known exploiters"

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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.

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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?

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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.

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Hmm...Interesting response as I never had a moral compass waiver after doing a KHTF and waiting 3 hours to do another or popping on another toon doing them back to back etc...Yet this was called exploitation... Hmm.

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If this affects your moral compass in any way, you probably need therapy. My moral compass is reserved for things like murder,theft, [censored],assault...you know things that are morally unacceptable. Not getting merits in an online game.

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Hedge, not only would "my" brother exist, but he'd be working on his day job of choice--(This is Feihung's analogy, not mine, but i'll roll with it, since I liked it enough to sig it.)-- as to him being a villain...You can pick your nose. You can pick your friends. But you can't pick your family.

/cheeky grin

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Do you think your brother could come up with a "permanent" day job for you? like river bottom inspector? And you can pick you friends and you can pick your nose, but you cant pick your friends nose.

And if you pick your friends, you cant wipe em on the couch.

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Never would I thought I would see the day when you get punished for making and playing alts .

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But if you create an alt, wouldn't you want to PLAY that alt? Why would you want to play some other character and earn IOs for that alt, unless you could earn more IOs that way than the alt could normally earn? (Because the main is higher level)

I guess I can understand transferring unused Merits to an alt, but in short, if you're tired of playing the game, what good is it to force yourself to play an old character, just to grind out more IOs? Why don't you either play the alt, or quit?

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Lets see, I have 15 50's. we are starting a tf and we want some debuff, but my rad rad and dark/dark arent on my list of toons that I collect merits on. So I dont play them. the team can live with the blaster i use to farm merits. A pooled merit system would allow me to bring the most useful toon for the team, not just the one I collect merits on.

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Stretched logic is stretched. Your brother still can't use your vacation time to take time away from HIS job. I believe that was what Feihung was getting at.

If you're keen to argue though, take it up with Positron. He stated in the OP:

"Now if you are simply asking that Merits be a tradable resource, or even trade-within-account, I am sorry, but that's not going to happen. Characters of different levels earn Merits at different rates. Merits are supposed to streamline the reward process for that character, and that's not going to be changing any time soon."

(Bolded where appropriate for effect)

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stretched logic. while you are active, your brother does not exist. you have to be put out in order for him to be active.Since your brother is a villain, I dont see a bright future for you.

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I'm quite certain it will be possible to make a mission where you're guaranteed to fail. Making a mission that cannot be completed, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

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So you're saying "escort Cardboard Box to safety" is probably out of the question?

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That's an clicklie or blow up thingie. I doubt the MA will allow you pick an object as a hostage. Now "escort (Nemesis) Colonel Comet to safety" should be entirely doable.

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they already did escort fusionette and she is as smart as a cardboard box.

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I have to laugh at the IOs argument, some of the most ridiculously fun times I've had were in WB on mid-30s toons barely with SOs (and some empty slots) as I'm generally lazy about slotting pre-50s toons. Test ladder, sure my blaster and stormie where purpled out like everyone else, but on live, lolz.

I too was a n00b (some would say I still am, but there's probably only 10 or so left that can say in an not cause me to laugh at them). But then (slowly) I learned to play. Trash talking is still annoying and of course I mean sore loser whining. Which Brings me to my top 10 sore loser whines in zone PvP:

1. Holy crap I got killed by Slax
2. Took you long enough
3. Pop moar pillz
4. teaming up to gank me eh?
5. WE HAD A DUEL YOU INTERUPTED
6. I'm just farming pillboxes, leave me alone
7. YOu are a jerk attacking without warning
8. You INNNNNNNNNNNNNNTTTTTTTEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRUPPPPPPTED, you $@*^$@^&^
9. How many buffs do you need? (half the time the toon in question had none)
10. Stand still so I can hit you.

Generally I did not reply.

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Now why would you complain about #1? It allows you to wear the tee shirt "Im a Slaxxy [censored]"

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Cyber- I laughed hard with (not at) your post.

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so so sad...but true.

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why?

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why bother putting them on test?

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On to the TFS .. I did the Katie Hannon TF last weekend and forget exactly how many merits it paid off but due to the constant speed TFs it has always spawned it wasn't much (I am almost sure THAT was 2 merits as well). Prior to that I'd completed the first story arc in Croatoa and got 7 merits (or maybe 8) for it. Yes I understand everyone stealths KHTF but in that FIRST mission you have to defeat Mary 10 times. That's 10 AVs that gradually get higher in level until your battling a 37 level AV by the 10th time. Somehow getting 2 merits for defeating 10 Arch villians just doesn't seem quite right when I can get 7 or 8 for a couple of hunts and a few door missions. Heck Dave Wincott's arc in the Hollows pays out 2 merits and its 4 missions long (2 hunts and 2 doors). Okay so Katie doesn't rate 40 or 50 merits like some of the longer TFs but for goodness sake ... 10 Arch Villians in one mission rates a little higher than 2! Can we do a bit of re-evaluating there as well please? LOL

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The Katie TF awards 7 merits and it can easily be done in 35 minutes. That award is right on target, based on their stated guidelines.

I agree Lusca is broken and some of the 'marquee' TFs are awarding too little.

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They either need to convert half of the av's to Ebs or add a 2 min delay between mary's. The only reason it is so fast is that they force feed you av's. The speed of the tf is dictated by the design. A 2 min delay would add 18 min base to the tf. all of a sudden your 40 min tf becomes 1 hour. I happen to like the fast paced respawn, tedium does not make for fun. Welcome to city of timeclock

[/ QUOTE ]The problem isnt the first mission but the last 3 missions. They need to pad those out more. Like have the second mission kill all and the last mission take away katie's flying ability and damage, make her a regular hostage. Also make it where you have to save the other witches as well. Make it where you have to defeat x number of redcaps and then it spawns snaptooth as an av.

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The difficulty of the tf is fine, it is just frontloaded. a tf like you are suggesting would be tedious and boring, not to mention worth at least 20 merits. AV's should give merits. If they go your way, they need to cut out 3 to 5 av's from mission 1 and cap them at lvl 35. Since you seem to see tf's as an excuse to slaughter everything in sight, not accomplish certain tasks.

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They either need to convert half of the av's to Ebs or add a 2 min delay between mary's. The only reason it is so fast is that they force feed you av's. The speed of the tf is dictated by the design. A 2 min delay would add 18 min base to the tf. all of a sudden your 40 min tf becomes 1 hour. I happen to like the fast paced respawn, tedium does not make for fun. Welcome to city of timeclock

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You mean like the Respec trials? Maybe when they get around to nerfing the merits on the respec trials and the ITF they can slow katie down so it is worth a whole 10 merits. Before Issue 13 whenever I did a Respec trial the team and I would sit in the reactor room comparing the long delays to Katie and how we wished the waves came in faster. I think this "city of timeclock" metric needs to examined. It seems like every task force and trial I like is in danger of being nerfed with the taskforces left to do become increasingly uninteresting and archaic yawnfests.

Master Gabriel

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agreed. The devs have become fixated on rewards, forgetting there should be a little content to go along with reward management systems. They put loot in the game and touted it as conent. When the players pursue that "content", they suddenly consider that broken. Some people do TF's for the story, I have 15 50's, I have seen that storyline so many times I probably recite it in my sleep.

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On to the TFS .. I did the Katie Hannon TF last weekend and forget exactly how many merits it paid off but due to the constant speed TFs it has always spawned it wasn't much (I am almost sure THAT was 2 merits as well). Prior to that I'd completed the first story arc in Croatoa and got 7 merits (or maybe 8) for it. Yes I understand everyone stealths KHTF but in that FIRST mission you have to defeat Mary 10 times. That's 10 AVs that gradually get higher in level until your battling a 37 level AV by the 10th time. Somehow getting 2 merits for defeating 10 Arch villians just doesn't seem quite right when I can get 7 or 8 for a couple of hunts and a few door missions. Heck Dave Wincott's arc in the Hollows pays out 2 merits and its 4 missions long (2 hunts and 2 doors). Okay so Katie doesn't rate 40 or 50 merits like some of the longer TFs but for goodness sake ... 10 Arch Villians in one mission rates a little higher than 2! Can we do a bit of re-evaluating there as well please? LOL

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The Katie TF awards 7 merits and it can easily be done in 35 minutes. That award is right on target, based on their stated guidelines.

I agree Lusca is broken and some of the 'marquee' TFs are awarding too little.

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They either need to convert half of the av's to Ebs or add a 2 min delay between mary's. The only reason it is so fast is that they force feed you av's. The speed of the tf is dictated by the design. A 2 min delay would add 18 min base to the tf. all of a sudden your 40 min tf becomes 1 hour. I happen to like the fast paced respawn, tedium does not make for fun. Welcome to city of timeclock

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It's not something that's going to get you to every single mission. It's not designed for that.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anyone asking for it to recharge in 5 minutes or for every mission.

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It's designed for the times you have to go from the far corner of Dark Astoria to the far end of IP. Or the times you can't find the mission in the underground tunnels of Faultline/Brickstown.

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And just how often do we find ourselves in this position? I don't know about you but I see this happening quite a bit.

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This isn't to say a lower time wouldn't be nice...but I really don't see it happening.

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Yeah, it would be nice, but since its not, I don't see me paying out any money for it either. This power's recharge should have shared the same recharge timer are the Vet Power Assemble the Team or the Base Teleporter. Not the timer it has now.

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which is why they wont see me paying $$ for this. They have gone to charging for costume upgrades, and crappy powers. Maybe marketing will be able to bully castle into changing this.

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One hour overpowered ? We dont have the same definition of 'overpowered'

30 mins would have been fair to me. 1 hour long but acceptable. 2 hours (in case it's not affected by the global recharge) isnt appealing anymore.

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yup, overpowered. it allowed me to defeat the stf solo only using brawl..true story

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No, I don't "need" these things.
I want to. These are "shinies". They are incentives, meant to encourage us to play, meant to enhance the play experience.

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I fail to understand why the availability of those optional "shinies" needs to be dumbed down to make it easier for you to acquire them en masse without investing much time. You just stated a pretty good case for leaving the difficulty to get them right where it is.

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Dumbed down? If mindlessly clicking on presents gives you a sense of accomplishment, you might have problems. Removing tedium is not dumbing down anything, it is improving the game.

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To the other players:

SUBJECTIVE: During the winter event, do the following: Get a team of 6-8 people, run around opening presents, kill Winter Lords. 20 merits in an hour, guaranteed. Bonus: Do this in Croatoa so you can respond to a Jack/Eocholai fight and get even more GM merits.



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Two things:
The Christmas event lasts what two weeks? What then, still be shortchanged at every turn?

Villains cannot get into Croatoa.

Villains need content. Have needed and asked for it since I-7. All of the pleas have fallen on deaf ears. It is really discouraging.

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Villains have more story arcs than heroes. How long can we stand this injustice? Villains sf's are better written and quicker than tf's. Which means you can do more of them back to back without going [censored] crazy.