dave_p

[ QUOTE ]
dave_p:

Those numbers are very, very misleading. They're also incorrect--your division's wrong. I'm not sure why, but it is. For example, Ball Lightning's single-target DPA should be 59.64 (63.81 Damage / 1.07 Activation Time). There are division errors all the way through your data--you'll want to recheck them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they're exactly as accurate as City of Data is and account for Arcanatime. Straight divisions are what's misleading. And I already said that if you manage to hit the AoE cap for SS, you catch up to the cone attacks or ranged AoEs, but again, if your starting point is 1/2 of those other attacks, you're still not catching all the way up, even if you happen to hit all 16 mobs, which, lets face it, rarely happens.

Elec might beat out Ice becaues Ice Storm recharges so slowly, but then IC has approx 3x the DPA or SS (yeah, yeah, it's a rain). Blizzard also far outdamages TB too--I'd call those two a wash. Elec absolutely does not beat out En (hardly an AoE powerhouse itself) for any practical purposes. Ball Lightning does a hair more damage than ET, but ET recharges faster, and EB outdamages & outrecharges SS. Yes, you could argue Elec does decent AoE damage (more than En or Ice) given absolutely perfect conditions, but for most practical situations, it's below average.

[ QUOTE ]
dave_p: Actually, Short Circuit is a damage power. It's a fairly significant one, too, since it can hit up to 16 foes, as opposed to most other sets' limit of 10 on their second AOE. Its radius of 20' nearly guarantees that, unless you're completely incompetent, you'll hit those 16 foes if they're available to be hit. If you slot it appropriately, you can do both significant drain and significant damage with the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring Sonic & Psi, which have absolutely pathetic AoE damage, Short Circuit's DPA is about half of the next weakest AoE power (and far less than most). In that it does AoE damage, it should absolutely be slotted for damage, and yes, if you happen to leverage it to hit the cap, it'd start to even out w/the cones, but I'd still hesitate to call it a true AoE damage power. Considering it roots you for 3 sec in PBAoE range, if not for the end drain, I don't know how often I'd be firing it off, unless I were PBAoE oriented w/say Elec/Fire or Elec/MM.

Here are just a few examples as a way of compaisons:

Code:[/color]

---

Elec Blast	Dam	Act	Rech	End	DPE	DPA

Ball Lightning	63.81	1.07	16	15.184	4.20 	48.34

Short Circuit	56.3	3	20	15.6	3.61 	17.77 <<<



Energy Blast	Dam	Act	Rech	End	DPE	DPA

Energy Torrent	60.06	1.07	12	11.856	5.07 	45.50

Explosive Blast	56.31	1.67	16	15.184	3.71 	30.47



Fire Blast	Dam	Act	Rech	End	DPE	DPA

Fire Ball	78.782	1	16	15.184	5.19 	66.31

Rain of Fire	126.8	2.03	60	26	4.88 	56.51

Fire Breath	109.8	2.67	16	15.184	7.23 	37.81



Ice Blast	Dam	Act	Rech	End	DPE	DPA

Frost Breath	87.58	2.67	16	15.184	5.77 	30.16

Ice Storm	117	2.03	60	15.6	7.50 	52.14

---

If you're a fan of Elec blasting, more power to you. It's a good set, but a tad low on the damage scale, and this is compensated for by various things--mitigation, end drain, range (for the nuke). There's no reason to try to cover up the fact that it *is* a bit low for overall damage.

Throws Rad auras on The Point.

Seriously, if you're trying to say Stone/Ice doesn't have much offensive output, I'd vigorously disagree with you. Pots for damage, Frost, Frozen Aura, Ice Storm (or Epic of choice) and many, many things are dead around me. Ice Melee's mitigation allows me to stay out of Granite for the most part so my damage isn't much debuffed for most fights. It's a late bloomer to be sure, but so are many other tanker secondaries.

If anything, my Stone/Ice outdamages my Fire/EM, but that says more about EM's lack of AoE than anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong. About every set is normalized for their damage/endurance/recharge. If you do nothing but compare those straight numbers against oh say, Fire which has a bonus of...more damage, then yes it gets to be less impressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. They did normalize a lot of the animations and damage scales, but there are still quite a few gaps in the different powersets, and not just for fire.

For example, just looking at T1 & 2 blasts' DPAs, Elec, Ice, En & Psi all have identical numbers. Fire is higher for Flares (T1), but actually lower for Fire Blast (T2). AR is higher for Burst (T1) and the same for Slug (T2). Archery & Son are lower for both.

Of course some sets don't get the T3 heavy blast and that in of itself makes for a big differece. Even among the sets that do though, there's a huge disparity for DPA because of the animation times (Blaze >>> BiB > TK Blast >> Blazing Arrow >> Power Burst > Shout).

Everyone does get a ranged AoE, but the DPA values are all different, again mostly because of animation times. Not everyone gets a cone, but for those who do, the values are again different. And of course a few get rains as well, again with different values. Even the nukes aren't terribly normalized--3 of the 4 PBAoEs are, but that's it.

DPE & recharge times are more normalized among the sets than DPA values. There are some discrepancies, but nothing worth mentioning. The devs really don't pay enough attention to animation times though, esp with Arcanatime, when balancing sets as a whole.

[ QUOTE ]
One of those "Yeah, you'll take down that boss in 2.8 seconds rather than 2.775 seconds" situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you compare a Fire blaster to a Son for the greatest difference in overall DPA/DPS (burst & sustained), I think you'll find a far, far greater difference in killing speeds than you surmise. Even with Sonic's -resist debuffs, I'd say Fire kills at least 25% faster, maybe 50% in a sustained fight (AVs and such). For burst, in the same time it takes to cast Shout (Son's heavy hitter and best DPA attack), Fire's already fired off Blaze & Fire Blast (actually, Blaze + Fireball and into Flares animation, but for simplicity sake, we'll just go w/2 attacks) and have already done over 2x the damage.

That's obviously an extreme example, but the differences between different blaster powersets aren't as trivial as you may think they are. And that's before taking into account AoE potential (or lack thereof) in the various sets.

BTW, assuming you were initially addressing the point that "energy is subpar", that has already been addressed, and indeed, En is in fact straight down middle of the road for damage.

Don't forget the ranged nuke is also weaker than the PBAoE ones. The lack of the T-3 heavy blast and a cone (your 2nd AoE, Short Circuit, isn't much of a damage power) really drag the overall damage down--I'd only place Elec over Son & Psi for overall damage (tho Psi kills Elec for pure ST damage). Of course, you get a lot of mitigation in the exchange, prolly 3rd overall behind Son & Ice.

A scrapper built to solo a Pylon could outdamage a blaster built to do the same, because part of soloing a pylon is surviving it, and a scrapper can do a much easier job of it. A blaster built for max survivability will likely have to sacrifice a bit of DPS in the process.

Take that out of the equation and there's no way a scrapper should outdamage a blaster built for pure DPS, unless you're talking about like a Dark/Shields vs. Sonic/Dev or some silly mismatch.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... but GFS ... has about the same DPA as Golden Dragonfly

[/ QUOTE ]

When both do/don't crit, and GD only hits one target. But GD, like Head splitter, is a small cone that can hit multiple targets, and it has an increased chance to crit. So overall GD will have a better DPA than GFS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both, very good points, and Sweeping Strike can be part of a combo to increase its overall DPA as well. I just wanted to illustrate that GFS falls pretty high up the scrapper food chain.

[ QUOTE ]
But GFS is still freakin' sweet, and if it fit, I'd totally have it in my build on a Fire Melee scrapper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, pretty much.

Um, GFS is skippable, but it's hardly "nothing special". Incinerate does indeed have a better DPA, but GFS is the 2nd best attack in Fiery Melee and has about the same DPA as Golden Dragonfly, Sweeping Strike & Midnight Grasp. It's also quite a bit higher than anything Claws, BS or Spines can do for ST damage.

Since Incinerate > Scorch > Creamate > Scorch does work so well, I do skip it on my Fire/Fire, but only with great reluctance, mostly cuz I go for S/L def cap and not the silly recharge that would enable a Incinerate > GFS > Cremate chain.

[ QUOTE ]
My Rad/Rad/Dark is nearly a tank. FF and Sonic are the only ones who can really be built to "tank" because they're the only defenders with mez-protection. With IO's, Sonics especially can get ridiculous (softcapped defense + 75% resist S/L and 55% resist Energy is just awesome.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I got my Son/Son to 42% ranged def and 67% S/L resists (55% energy). It was too much picking up Fighting for Tough/Weave to cap the def & S/L resists, but he's *plenty* tough as is. Except sleeps. Freakin' sleeps are everywhere!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I may be missing something basic here, but I didn't take hot feet of chocking cloud on my Frad. I found them to be huge end drains, and begged for me to stay in melee range too long. With the slots that freed up I have cinders and em pluse cycling about every other mob. cinders this one, EP the next, repeat. I am only in melee for a second and then back at a safer distance firing off debuffs and spamming fire cages.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow yeah you're missing something.. mainly the draws to making an Frad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly. You can be a very successful F/Rad w/o either power. My AV/GM soloing build employs neither, and while I take Hotfeet on my teaming build, I've never found CC to be essential. Not saying it's not a key F/Rad power, but you can do just fine as a purely ranged controller.

You should not be relying on Consume for end management. Even on a primary/secondary scale, Consume recharges at base 180 and w/most decent recharge builds, around every 50 sec, which I find inadequate on my Fire tank/scrapper. As part of an APP, it's a 360 base rechage that a good Fire/Rad build will be able to get down to around 100 sec. That's far too much time in between charges unless you have good end management from the beginning.

As I stated above, having a big gap in AM is the #1 killer--your end recovery should be like +2 to your end usage in full combat (RI & EF, CC & HF running). That means every 1 sec, you're gaining 2 end with which to fuel your attacks. When AM is down, that plummets by over a full point and you're gaining back less than 1 end/sec.

Of course, you need to place plenty of end redux in your toggles & attacks to maintain the numbers above, in addition to perma-AM. If you add the Numina/Miracle uniques, you can get to around +3.5 net end in combat, +2.5 w/CC & HF running. This means you can get back end during a ST attack chain (w/o HF & CC running--say for AV fights).

No need for Consume in this case, but if you can't afford the uniques, take Consume w/the knowledge that you'll have plenty of end recovery to very slowly drain your end for the 100 sec you'll need to wait for Consume to recharge. Of course, now you're left w/o mez protection, but at least you have Fireball.

Yeah, I ran this twice yesterday w/more or less PUGs (w/1 or 2 friends who were very good players). Total cake on blue side.

1st run w/my Son/Son. Team wiped on Reichman, cuz we just let the AVs spawn. Had R down to like 5%, but couldn't quite overcome the other AVs w/poor coordiation. Came back, killed the other AVs 2 at a time, finished Reichman. Total run in 1:04.

2nd run w/my Fire/Rad. This time, 3 of the other 4 AVs were held off by my friend's Mind controller (sleeps ftw!) and me on Vanessa who can't be slept. I more or less soloed her while the other 6 took down R, then we finished the remaining 3 in no time. Total run: 44 min.

A tank could've done the same thing w/the multiple AVs--in fact, it'll be a lot easier finding a tank that can occupy multiple AVs than finding a pair of trollers that can do what we did (we're both IO'ed to the gills--the tanks wouldn't need to be). R himself takes a bit longer than most AVs, but isn't exactly difficult. I think our first run got hit by that mag 100 PBAoE stun & debuff too. I know I got hit by *something* through my Son Dispersion (and Clarity for everyone else). No one died at that point though--we just recovered and kept chugging along (until the other AVs woke, anyway).

Nice job on that build (beat me by 20 min!). Good call on the Snipe set too--you got your recharge a bit higher than mine, and really good call on the Surveillance. I wouldn't bother w/Fire Blast as a filler though, unless you think the better defiance #s are worth it. Shocking has as high a DPA as Havoc so even though it has a slightly longer animation than Fire Blast (thus weighing down the overall DPS), Shocking has a far higher DPA to start w/that Fire Blast.

[ QUOTE ]
Figured I'd play around with Mid's and got this as my best dps build:

1. Flare- 1 sec activation, .93 recharge, 154 damage
2. Blaze- 1 sec activation, 2.9 recharge, 425 damage
3. Energy Punch- .83 activation, 2.9 recharge, 245 damage

Energy punch->flare->blaze->flare

[/ QUOTE ]

Mids' is actually somewhat unreliable for numbers. If you're doing calculations, you should take City of Data numbers.

If you're Fire/EM, your best DPA attacks in order are:

Code:[/color]

---

Fire/EM	Damage	Act	DPA

Blaze 	188.95	1	159.05

EP     	109   	0.83	103.22

BS    	144.59	1.5	84.26

---

After that, your best ST (yes, ST) attack is Fireball at 66.31 DPA. Depending on your global recharge, you're more likely to use Flares as a filler, though BU/Aim could be better used in those gaps.

Calculating an exact DPS is next to impossible atm, because we don't know when the next attack begins its animation, at the next tick of the server clock after the last attack finishes its animation, or 1 tick *after* that. The best we can do are approximations and surrogate tests like pylon solo times.

No, no one has ever posted a 300 DPS chain afaik. I think a Fire/* controller could achieve an "effective" 300 DPS attack chain (Kin or Rad, maybe Storm). Highest I ever got in test w/my Fire/Rad was 281, but that wasn't 100% optimized for ST damage. BTW, by "effective" DPS, I'm including debuffs in the equation. For pure damage output, even a DM/Shields w/fully saturated AAO & SD couldn't quite get there, though they'd be well over 250. A Fire/Elec blaster could do it though.

In fact, I just threw together a build for max recharge & damage. I wouldn't play it, because of low mitigation and AoE output (relatively speaking), but if you want high DPS, try this one:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Magic Blaster
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Electricity Manipulation
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Cold Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(3), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Electric Fence -- GravAnch-Hold%(A), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(7), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(7), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg(9), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Fire Ball -- Ragnrk-Knock%(A), Ragnrk-Dmg(11), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(11), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Charged Brawl -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(15), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(17), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 10: Havoc Punch -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(37), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 12: Aim -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(29), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(43)
Level 16: Build Up -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(27), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 18: Blaze -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(19), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(21), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(43), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(50), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(50), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(50)
Level 22: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Flares -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Build%(33), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(34), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Dmg-I(36)
Level 28: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 30: Lightning Field -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Oblit-%Dam(31), Sciroc-Dam%(31), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), Oblit-Dmg(33)
Level 32: Inferno -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(45), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 35: Power Sink -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(46), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(46), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(46), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(48), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(48)
Level 38: Shocking Grasp -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(39), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(40), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Flash Freeze -- FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(A), FtnHyp-Plct%(42), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(42), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(42), FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Defiance

Perma-Hasten, Lightning Field & Assault running, even w/o Aim or BU, you should be able to get in the 300 territory. main chain is Blaze-Charged Brawl-Havoc Punch. Shocking Grasp would be used as the 4th attack if Aim or BU weren't up--if they are, use those instead. Procs also contribute a decent amount. Add in Defiance and you're well over 300 DPS. How long you'd sustain it for is a different question. Power Sink would let you fill up whenever needed, but a 3 sec animation for that would kill your DPS.

What are you trying to accomplish with your build? I don't really see any focus, not in recharge, no defense, no real high damage output either (relatively speaking, you're still a Fire/Rad). You're putting in a lot of Purp sets, but not even getting perma-AM out of the deal. You seem to be going for end recovery whenever possible (perma-AM would help a lot more than an extra 2.5% here and there), but only 1 end redux in EF? Stealth IO in Sprint, but no Super Speed or Smoke to stack means you're not completely invis. Only 1 Acc in LR means it's not perma for AV fights.

If you want defense, work on 6-slotting Thunderstrike & Lockdown sets, also Blood Mandate for your Imps and BotZ for your travel powers. If you want damage, slot procs & a damage set in Cages and take & slot Ring of Fire. If you're going for a +recharge build, at the very least, get AM to perma status.

3 Enzymes in RI will free up 3 slots. 6-slotting RA is also a bit wasteful--if you already didn't have a lot of global recharge, I'd say 5-slot w/Doctored Wounds, but you don't even need that. I'd also take Super Speed over Recall Friend or Fallout (or even Mutation) for overall utility & QoL. I'm not sure how you're planning on traveling w/just 1 slot in Fly & Hover. If you're going to fly, esp in combat, you really need those powers slotted (again, 3 BotZ would be really good in there for the +def). Would also save you a slot in Mind over Body that should have at most 3-slots. Instead of a Def/Rech in IW, consider a End/Rech instead, since you seem to be eyeing your end bar a bit (again, except for EF). Finally, consider putting your Unbreakable End/Hold in CC in place of the Neuronic, and stick the Unbreakable proc in Cinders (actually, I'd slot Char w/Unbreakable and 6-slot Cinders and EMP w/Lockdown myself).

Don't get me wrong--it's not a bad build by any means, but there's room for improvement w/a bit of focus in X-direction (def, damage, etc). Think about how much more effective your controller would be if you had like 35% ranged defense.

The simplest way of calculating your effective DPS is to go solo a pylon.

DPS = (38343.75 / seconds to solo pylon) + 127.8125

Done.

If you really have a DPS of 287.73, you'll be able to solo a pylon in just under 4 min (3:59). Since I have yet to see a sub-4 min number, I sorta doubt this, esp since you're Elec/Elec. Fire/Elec, absolutely optimized for ST damage (which means you'd need outside buffs for mitigation)... maybe.

Sometimes, it's better to quit while you're only slightly behind.

[ QUOTE ]
*added* Kruunch, Combustion has a fairly long animation, three seconds. Interestingly, Fire Sword Circle is only .33 seconds shorter, but it always feels a lot shorter than Combustion. At any rate, it does less damage than FSC and has a longer animation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I did list all the numbers right at the top of this discussion.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Energy Melee Dam Act DPA
Barrage 58.7 1.33 37.06
Energy Punch 44.5 0.83 42.14
Bone Smasher 73 1.5 42.54
Whirling Hands 44.5 2.5 16.86
Energy Transfer 202.9 2.67 69.87
Total Focus 158.4 3.3 46.15

Fiery Melee Dam Act DPA
Scorch 48 1 40.40
Fire Sword 73 1.33 46.09
Combustion 57.8 3 18.24 &lt;&lt;&lt;
Breath of Fire 74.7 2.67 25.72
FSC 83.6 2.67 28.79 &lt;&lt;&lt;
Incinerate 111.2 1.67 60.17
Gr Fire Sword 144.1 2.33 57.46

Stone Melee Dam Act DPA
Stone Fist 44.49 0.83 42.13
Stone Mallet 73 1.61 39.50
Heavy Mallet 101.4 1.63 54.87
Hurl Boulder 73 2.5 27.65
Tremor 44.5 3.3 12.97
Seismic Smash 158.4 1.5 92.31
</pre><hr />

Note, even Combustion is better than WH.

An attack chain of Blaze-Blaze-Blaze will easily do over 300 DPS, even w/no BU, Aim or Defiance.

W/o doing any precise math: the best ST attack chain (realistically sustainable) would be Blaze-Charged Brawl-Havok Punch (might need Shocking Grasp as filler depending on recharge). So Fire/Elec is what you're looking for. W/defiance, stick in BU & Aim and you might get to close to 300. I've seen high scrapper builds push 250 DPS, so a blaster *should* beat that, but 300 is a very, VERY high hurdle. Not sure that the OP has such a build--if you do, please show us soloing a Pylon in 3:43, cuz that's what a DPS of 300 could do. We might even provide the necessary mitigation if required so that you can just do damage.

(Note, I'm fairly sure some controller builds can get to an "effective" DPS of 300, but that includes your pets and debuffs, not straight out damage.)

See how much clearer you can be w/a bit of effort?

I really don't have any problems with what you just said. I disagree with a few points, esp how easy it is to get HL's recharge down to around 30 sec, and what your definition of "spawn to spawn" means. I play on a lot of high DPS teams (not surprising if my "baseline" is as high as you seem to think it is), but also pugs, and on both kinds of teams and in between, I find more things to do w/Cold than you do (and certainly more than w/FF, which is the whole point of this thread). That's fine; we're talking differences in playstyle. It's just what you initially wrote (and the way you wrote it) that I found out of line.

Yeah, I'm still trying to make sense of that post. I gotta think he was talking about Psy def & blaster relative to their own ATs, in which case... well, they're both underwhelming. Def version's ST chain is prolly higher up on the food chain than the Blaster version because of the lack of Fire Blast for defenders. Even w/Psy Scream, its AoE is pretty weak tho. *shrugs*

[ QUOTE ]
This is flat out false. The blaster version of psy and the defender version have almost identical st DS output. If you actually look at the numbers they just shifted it around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to dog you in multiple threads, but if you're saying the blaster & defender versions of Psy Blast offer almost identical ST damage (DS? Did you mean DPS?), you're completely mistaken. If you're not, I guess I can't seem to get the hang of translating your posts correctly.

Code:[/color]

---

Blaster:	Dam	Act	Rech	End	DPE	DPA

Psi Dart	62.56	1	4	5.2	12.03 	52.66

Mental Bl	102.6	1.67	8	8.528	12.03 	55.52

TK Blast	122.62	1	10	10.192	12.03 	103.22

Will Dom	77.58	1.1	20	10.192	7.61 	58.77

Psi Lance	172.67	4	12	14.352	12.03 	40.88

Psi 'nado	55.7	2.37	20	18.512	3.01 	22.21

Scramble	15.64	3	20	10.4	1.50 	4.94

Psy Wail	304.99	1.97	360	20.8	14.66 	144.41



Defender:	Dam	Act	Rech	End	DPE	DPA

Mental Bl	36.15	1.67	4	5.2	6.95 	19.56

Subdue   	47.71	1.67	6	6.864	6.95 	25.82

Psi Lance	99.77	4	12	14.352	6.95 	23.62

Psy Scream	37.59	2.67	12	11.856	3.17 	12.94

TK Blast	59.28	1	8	8.528	6.95 	49.90

Will Dom	70.85	1.1	14	10.192	6.95 	53.67

Psi 'nado	32.15	2.37	20	18.512	1.74 	12.82

Scramble	9.04	3	20	10.4	0.87 	2.85

Psy Wail	176.2	1.97	360	20.8	8.47 	83.43

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Again, all #s are from City of Data, base damage at 50. DPA includes Arcanatime. This is also before taking into account Defiance and Build Up/Aim. While the defender versions of TK & Will Dom have shorter recharges, that doesn't even come close to closing the vast gap of their respective DPAs. Other than Will Dom, which you could argue is better for defenders (again, before Defiance/BU/Aim), I really fail to see how anyone can come to the conclusion that the defender version does even remotely the same damage as the blaster version.

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How do you read &gt; use sleet on every spawn &lt; and then state that I think it is useless?

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You tell me. You wrote:

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cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play

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Perhaps you should be a bit more clear in your own words which of those powers you considered useless? Just the ones in parenthesis? So fine, you're not quite as idiotic to think Sleet is useless. Congratulations, you've graduated 2nd grade and I apologize for not being able to decipher your post earlier. Not to impugn your grammar, but try some commas for clarity next time, because your OP really read like you thought Sleet was part of the useless group.

Now, tell me why Snow Storm is useless.

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Heat loss is a 360 base rech, that means 180 with full slotting. 90 up, 30 down is a solid IO build with haste, is that the baseline standard?

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What are you going to prioritize Heal Loss with over recharge? You should be ED capped on the recharge, preferably with End Mod sets. In my own build, w/just 3 slots I have +53% accuracy and just a 26 sec downtime when Hasten is up. Even w/just SOs, 1~2 Acc, 3 Rech and maybe an End Mod should be the standard slotting. And why would any sensible Cold defender not take Hasten? You might not want Benumb every fight, but for the fights yo want it for, you damn well want it coming up as fast as possible, not to mention for Sleet &amp; Heat Loss (and Frostwork for those who take it) that are greatly aided by Hasten.

90 up, 30 down is quite reasonable. And those 30 sec start w/a full end bar, so it's not like everyone has to stand still for the interim. Even if you disagree with all that, you're still talking about a power w/a base recharge a lot faster than Recovery Aura. Therefore, if you don't consider Heat Loss not part of "regular play", whatever that means, that means you would consider RA even less a part of regular play. Downright useless, that Recovery Aura!

Your disdain for Infrig &amp; Benumb is also remarkable. Of course Benumb is usually saved for EBs and above, but why wouldn't you want to Infrig a boss? Or do you only fight minions &amp; lts on your teams? What exactly do you do in your capacity as a Cold defender anyway, put shields &amp; Fog up, cast Sleet and twiddle your thumbs? I assume you at least throw in an attack or two, but you might wanna try putting up Snow Storm first, maybe hitting a boss w/Infrig, before giving your best blaster impersonation.

Please try to read properly the entire post in context. You'll notice I was talking about a particular rumor that was going around, just as a point of interest to Kruunch, not anything about why EM was or is currently unbalanced. I posed the EM scaling to scrapper idea as a purely intellectual exercise, one I hadn't even done. Instead of grasping at straws, perhaps you'd like to address what I actually directed at you?

I think one of the big conspiracy theories back in the day was, ET's animation was lengthened to be ready to be ported for scrappers. At a base 200 DPA for tankers, it was already close to being broken, if not flat out. It's a bit lower w/Arcanatime (like 170 DPA), which we didn't know about back then, but still, scaling that up for scrappers, and then piling a crit on top would've just made it farcical. But instead of taking a sensible adjustment (say, merely *doubling* the animation time), they, as you say, overtweaked it.

At least, that's one of the theories I seem to recall. I haven't scaled the current EM to scrapper levels to see how it'd compare to something like MA, which is another ST set w/1 actually very good PBAoE, but I get the feeling it'd be low on the scrapper ladder too. No idea how EM stacks up redside, tho I have an EM/Elec brute (that I never play).