da5id

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Ok, after reading the last 5 pages of posts, I think that people finally understand one of the things that I have been trying to get across over the last couple months in this forum and over the last year on the Test Server and AT Boards.

Here is the real information that was given to us yesterday from the DEVs:

THE DEVS NEVER INTENDED OUR TANKS TO BE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY DID DURING THE NOVEMBER TO MAY PERIOD. ANYTHING WE WERE ABLE TO DO WAS AN UNINTENDED SIDE-EFFECT OF THE GAME NOT OPERATING IN THE WAY THAT THEY DESIGNED IT.



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Tom I don't think you are right here. The devs CHANGED their design when PvP illuminated flaws in the balance. Their vision for the various ATs has been a moving target since the beginning. Tanks were working as intended before, and it was their intention that changed.

Statesman and the devs are only human, and in designing the ATs originally, he made a big mistake in allowing a fundamentally defensive class to exist as it was. To say this was not originally his intent is to rewrite history.

There is no question this is no longer his intent. What I and others are trying to point out to him though, is that if he follows up on his current "vision" of what a tank is, he might as well just remove our AT altogether, as we bring virtually NOTHING to the table compared to other ATs.

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I didn't want to go there.

The thing is, that seems to be what States' expects to be the role of the AT. If you are doing more, then the AT may need to be taken down some more.

How much is enough, and what should you expect. Apparently the contribution that Statesman's Tank made was sufficient to meet expectations.

If that is the case, then the question becomes, is it worth playing a character that contributes that much (little)?

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He "tanked" 1/3 of a spawn for 7. He took up a little more than twice his share. On a team with any sort of non-melee AT i'd expect any scrapper to at LEAST do this much. I think it's pretty clear that states' grand vision for tanks is nothing more than scrankers who draw a little more aggro than the vastly more offensively effective scrappers.

Damn Myrm... that's cold. Spot on.. but cold.

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So those are the results of my tests are thus:
1) Solo, Ice tanks should be fine, if they have to slow down from what they were used to.
2) My presence on the team was not needed, which will lead to more of number 1.
3) Agro limits, while understandable so that you can't drag 100 enemies to one location, need to be raised to at least 2 max groups worth of enemies, or one group with max shadow cyst spawns.
4) Teaming will require that an Ice tank find a group that can actively increase his defenses. Like I said, when I wasn't buffed by teammates, I went down fast. If I had been with 7 Blasters, and tried jumping into the mobs first, I would not have lived through half the fights. <- Editted to put in number 4

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I would add a caveat to number 4, that with the same buffing a scrapper or other AT would do better for bringing increased damage potential.

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Okay, true to my word, I used my respec on live and ran some tests with a group tonight. It's late, so I'm just going to give the generalities here, and will post some specifics when I wake up.

Basically, I could still tank fine, but there was nothing that the team could do with me, that they couldn't do without. Meaning, if I was on the team and being an active contributor, we did fine. If I was just standing off to the side watching, the rest of the team did about 95% as well, maybe more.

The group was made up of two defenders (emp and dark), a mind controller (emp secondary), two blasters, a scrapper, a peacebringer, and myself (and Ice tank). The emp defender and the scrapper were SKed up, but not by much. We were fighting level 46 freakshow (highest level in the group was the mission holder, the controller, at 45). I was at 43.

When properly fortified, I could tank quite well. The time that I wasn't, I died very quickly once the group was engaged. In fact, I'm pretty sure it provoked a few "wow"s. If properly buffed, I still took damage (sometimes into the red) from the alpha, but could cure it through either hoarfrost or the two emps.

After tanking normally for a while, I asked the group if I could perform a test. Basically, I needed to see if they could take the villains at the same pace without me as they could with me. They agreed, with a little trepidation, and the emps proceeded to fort the MA/Regen scrapper. The fight with me on the side went just as well as the fights with me in it. On a second attempt at this test, the same result occured.

So basically, with this group, against these foes (the mish was set to unyielding, so each spawn had many minions, several leiutenants, and 1-3 bosses), my presence was superfluous. If I had not been there, they could have done the mission just as fast as they could with me there.

Okay, that got a bit more specific than I would've liked, and I'm really tired (almost 4 am here), so I'll tackle the rest tomorrow, including posting a rough sketch of my build. But that was the general tone of the night.

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Yes, that is what many of us have found. It merely confirms our analysis. (I've found exactly the same thing in my own anecdotal experience)

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Alot of people are looking at what they *could* do in the unbalanced days of yore ( I played an INV tanker from the last bit of beta to I3, so I do not speak out of my butt there ) instead of working out how to do the job that needs to be done now. Those of us either working with tools that are weaker ( Ice Armor ) or those who do not have pre-I5 conceptions seem to have minimal problems. And if someone using the agreed upon wost set for the job can do it, then obviously, the other sets MUST be capable of Tanking for large teams and other situations.

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You make the same mistake a lot of people tend to make here. It's not a matter of being used to pre I5 conditions. It's not a matter of not being as uber anymore. It is all about the question of whether our primaries are good enough for us to actually excel at a role. The contention here is that it is not. We are valued more for our inherent HP and cap glut than our primaries. Many of us find this unpalatable.

(Also Ice is not the weakest Tanker primary defensively. Fire is for most situations. "board wisdom" just hasn't cottoned onto it yet)

Ahoy regenners, I thought you'd might like my latest attempt at overwrought fiction!
Behold: A I5 and ED fanfic, Starring Scrapper and Tank. (Or a very long way to go for a stupid pun)

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The ATs and the entire game is balanced so that everyone has a purpose. If you are in a team that consists of a Tanker, Scrappers, and Blasters then look at the LFT list and find a Cont or Def to add to your team. That's what they are there for.

Build your teams in the same way that you would build your character. Ask yourself what you want to accomplish and what do you need to gain/lose in order to get there.

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Well that really is the problem. Many of us feel that the tank has no well defined purpose in which she can excel. What non-perverse situations can you come up with where a team would be best off with a Tanker rather than another AT of equivalent level and build level? Currently I see none beyond a few situations were tanks are little more than bags of HP and Buff Holes.

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You do realize that this is only the start of a test.

Did the team succeed? Yes.

Did the team try working things with the tanker simply not getting involved?

If so, was there any degradation in performance?

With two controllers, (and a Kin controller at that) was aggro management much of an issue?

If the Tank was replaced with any other AT, would things have gone fast/safer?

Personally, I think a non-stone tank in a team is just kind of there, not really adding, but not a big detriment either.

Problem I have with the state of tankers right now is that I just don't think they contribute as much as most other AT's except in very specific circumstances.

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Quoted for emphasis and in hope of an answer.

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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.

I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets off (silly Wizards ).

It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.

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I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.

The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.

The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?

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Well... we can pick which enemy to get aggro from, and his 4 closest friends. I'm sorry but is it really that strange for someone to ask for their PRIMARY powerset to be more important than some nice-to-have bone they threw us a while back?

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OK, now that Statesman has given us his idea of the Role of the Tank, I have to ask the questions:

With the resources we have at the present time, can we fulfill that role?


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No. At least not more than marginally better than a scrapper or another AT given the support required. Yes we can get more aggro, but we can still get far more aggro than we can survive without help. A scrapper with slotted provoke requires the same amount of attention by his teammates as a tanker does to survive (Because the difference between scrapper and tanker is small compared to the difference between supported and unsupported), but defeats things faster.

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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.

Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.


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I think the problem we see here states, is that the margin between how long tanks last based on their primaries and how long other ATs last is too small to justify using a tank to take the aggro. Defenders external buffs exceed our own internal buffs. They can turn the entire team into semi-tanks with damage mitigation equal to an unbuffed tank. Which allows them to not have to worry about the extra aggro in the mob. Sure they can buff our own abilities to cap, but is that all we are? Bags of HP with higher caps? Shouldn't our own PRIMARY abilities matter?

Why do you not want tanker defenses higher? Clearly this is the post I5 policy. Where do you want them instead?

I have thought about this question a lot. And really I think it can only be answered by the devs. If they don't have a clear idea as to the role of the tank, we don't really have much of a chance. (And any niche that we may be able to eek out would likely dissapear with the next set of tweaks). What we need is some actual dialog with the devs on this.

EDIT- To add to teh funny, I'd like to suggest a new Tanker sport. Synchronized beard growing. All of the beauty of syncrhonized swimming, twice the follicles!

Energy/Energy -which is pretty hard going so far.

My DM/Fire Ninja Pirate brute (Arrrrr-san) seems a lot easier to play, though it may just be because I'm teaming with my regular crew two of whom are playing buffers of some sort. (Ice corrupter, and bubble dom)

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What damage type?

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Pansy.

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So... let's see. Fire Shield and Plasma Shield.

They take, if I recall recorrectly, Damage Res, End Reduc, and Recharge Reduction.

The recharge times on them are trivial, to say the least.

So now I get an end usage bonus. The end cost of them was already ok.


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this was my initial thought as well... as it stands it only pays for my tank to slot his armors with damage resistance buff and end reduction by decreasing the endurance cost of my armors it decreases the use of slotting end reduction in my toggles, I mean its great and all that the end reduction is happening but I would love an explanation as to how we are to slot powers that don't have viable diversification options

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Seconded. Positron, the defensive sets are not happy with this at all since it seems like we've been hit harder because of the lack of "diversification" options. There's a lot of ill will from scrappers and tanks right now of getting hit this hard twice in a row. I'm sure you're considering something to address the concerns about powers with limited slotting options. (Adding recharges to toggles with 2 second recharge is pointless) Please throw us a bone here..

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Specifics? As in which powers were affected? And how?

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Yes states, what do you mean here? Did you fix the inherent problems with positional vs type in your defense implementation? or are you just talking about adding all but psi damage typing to DEF powes?

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(pops Zoloft like a pez junky)

I don't know. None of this bothers me much. Anyone got some valium?

(holds bottle of pills out)

Anyone want some?

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No thanks. I already know how this party ends, and I now have a rule about waking up in the same county as my underwear.


Well, its more of a guideline than a rule, but its still good advice.

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That's funny, I've got a rule about you NOT waking up in the same country as your underwear.

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So as you add more recharge enhancements it takes:

20, 15, 12, 10, 8.571, 7.5, 6.667

seconds for the attack to recharge.

Meaning it takes

200, 150, 120, 100, 85.71, 75, 66.67

seconds to break down the door.

...and dividing this by 20 to put the first number in the series at the same point, we get

10, 7.5, 6, 5, 4.286, 3.75, 3.333

But I thought recharge had 'more diminishing returns', whatever that means!

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Way to miss the point Glazius... You forgot to include the activation time in your timings, the entire CAUSE of effective "diminishing returns".

So the only types of attacks the power pool powers don't help with re aoe-psionic types. All other Aoe, and psionic attacks are covered as well...

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Once again, proof that empirical data collected through in game testing and concise, polite posts are the best way to bring these things to a devs attention.

Good job.

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Polite posts, common sense, and thousands of emails have got us no where. The "only if Statesman says you're having fun or not having fun" way seems to prevail. Which is like having someone tell me I REALLY like eating spicy food no matter how much I'm crying, spitting it out, and simply saying "I do not like Spicey food!" Of course none of this could possibly mean I REALLY DO NOT LIKE spicey food.

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Nobody likes boring food. If your eyes are watering, its burning your tongue, and you're ejecting it from your mouth at high speed, that just means you're having a more active eating experience. You get the same amount of calories, but at a significantly higher entertainment level.

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Eating while possessed, Linda Blair style, also satisfies these requirements. I'm sure we can all agree that this is an excellent dining experience. Think ambiance...

IV didn't get hers either. You can come hang out in the tank forum with us. It's like a damn ghost town.. stupid beta invites!

I didn't get mine either Nozy. I think it's cus they had my old email. Alas. Alexa told me to email support@plaync.com to get it sorted out.

21/21. I had to use the process of elmination on Commander Courage and Nova.

The Min/Max Army's guide to Sustained-DPS

A worksheet for ANY build to maximize their current sustained (ie long term) DPS.