Warkupo

Someone has to teach the Clockwork to dance, and I can't think of anyone better than... Queen?

...Did Castle already SHOW us his praetorian self?

First comment; My statement is "There's information, go find it."

You want me to reproduce the entire thread into this one for you? 'Cause I'm not going to do that. I will give you a link though.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219592

It's 32 pages long, and gets rather dramatic, but there you go.


"Fire/Kin totally pwnz yo" is meant as a joke. Perhaps I'm not very good at humor, but I get the feeling it's lost to this thread anyway. I don't even have a Fire/Kin, or at least not the one you're thinking of.

*Edit* - All the loving anger in this thread is obviously starting to make me grumpy. As such, I'm going to be ignoring it. I've more or less stated everything I care too anyway, and whoever reading is welcome to agree, disagree, or disagree while quoting every other paragraph I put forth. Perhaps the next time this subject comes up we can talk about it without hurling fire at each other, but until then I'm going to go do something relaxing.

In short; /ragequit

Any attitude you are perceiving is your own. Perhaps if you could stop foaming at the mouth for a second you'd realize I'm not in the same fiery discussion you are. I do enjoy how you can't apparently discuss this without advocates of SB getting all emotional.

I wouldn't party with you because you want me to SB, and I do not want to SB. We have a conflict of interest. I don't see a reason why we should be forced to play together when you expect something I do not think is important.

*Edit* - That said, I do get rather mean towards you as we go on. I guess your 'charm' got to me. I don't, however, feel badly for it.

You seem to be inferring that not having SB is akin to only having Brawl. It is not. It is not even a matter that SB is drastically reducing performance somehow. I don't even know where to begin arguing at this with because it seems to be such a random comment to be making. Perhaps I'm having difficulty understanding you through all the you that you present, but I'm afraid I'm going to need elaboration on what idea you are trying to put forth with this comment.

Yet, I have to insist that you did. Do you call everyone who disagrees with you a troll? I'm sure that must make it much easier on you. Heaven forbid you have to exercise thought outside of what you perceive to be truth.

There are plenty of points as to why I wouldn't pick SB, and I don't care to list them *again*. If you don't agree with them that's one thing, but don't pretend they just aren't there.



Perfect is your own adjective. I've never argued for having a perfect team. I'm actually okay with a sucky team, which I've said already.

I doubt I'd even include myself on a perfect team, as I don't really enjoy playing AT combination's I have to constantly fear will be nerfed.


I don't think people enjoy it when you keep calling them "commoners", or insinuating that people who are not of royal descent are somehow lesser beings.

If you don't know how to use FS that is your own failing, but don't assume everyone is is bad at this game as you are. Also, stop assuming that I will only play with "perfect" people as well, as it is never something I have stated. I prefer to play with people who have the ability to make a logical build and are at least somewhat competent at what they are doing. Call me crazy, but when we aren't all dying every other step my enjoyability seems to rise much more quickly.

Furthermore, I have to question the hypocrisy of calling me an elitist when so many others flat out refuse to team with someone who doesn't have SB.

I don't believe I said it would fully drain an enemy. However, yes, it can and commonly will bottom out the endurance on many enemies without any sort of resistance to it after some slotting. Most powers need slotting to be effective, though I'm sure you knew that, given the intelligence you've displayed thus far.

How in the hell are you reading what I said in that way? Transference will solve END problems, therefore arguing that SB is for endurance is irrelevant. The 50% recharge is not necessary because Fulcrum Shift buffs things to a value so high as to make it redundant. That is the whole ****ing premise of my argument, how the hell did you **** up comprehending that? I've only said it like, five times now.

So it's okay when you want perfection, but not okay when you think I do. Got it.



Why are you jumping two lines? Was I jumping two lines? I don't think you jumped any lines, but you might have been jumping when I wasn't looking, so I don't know.


You're the only one that keeps giving us titles. If you think I'm awesome, that's fine, I'm not about to stop you from spreading that word around, but I never claimed as such. You're the one who thinks your a commoner as well; I simply think you're annoying and probably don't need to to display such a retarded level of anger about this discussion. But alas, I've already been insulting you back for awhile now, so I suppose I don't really have a right to be calling you childish.

I ditched it so that I could improve my build with a power I found more useful. I have a habit of not taking powers I don't feel necessary in favor of powers that will help improve my character; I'm crazy like that.


When did we establish that? Or did you just establish than and then assumed I had to agree with your establishment?

What is with you and dirty people? Don't read more than is there, I don't like playing with people who demand I SB them because they do not think they can function without it. I don't like playing with people who need the h43l0rz either. If you enjoy that sort of thing, good or you, but don't assume I have too.

Your admiration for me is flattering.

I dont' really like tea though. I so totally get together with my friends and make fun of stupid people though, you are right on about that.


I wasn't aware Travel Suppression was in effect for the entirety of the mission until it's completion. I've always been able to use my travel power shortly after finishing combat, but apparently I've been working outside some common rule. My mistake.


Nope. That was a lie. I'm not going to do that either, I'm probably just going to leave them there and laugh heartily while I call up my friends and having a rousing game of telephone grab *** while I check over my stock market.


So I guess Granites have finally moved up in class and away from the dirty commoner status oppressive overlord like myself have kept them in for so long. Well, we're not about to have this! ASSEMBLE THE KINGDOM!


EGAD! THE KIN ARE RISING UP AS WELL!? HAS OUR GOD ABANDONED US COMPLETELY? WHAT OF OUR ROYALTY, WHAT OF OUR BIRTH RIGHTS!?

I hope the SB'd people never run faster than you jump, or you have to go around a corner or something, less your narrow example be disproved. Oh wait.


Of course, but why wouldn't I be giving them Fulcrum Shift? It's very easy to make permanent.

Maybe that wasn't so obvious for you, but I was exaggerating. Something similiar to this does happen, however. Especially in caves.


I fail to see where I stated that. In fact, I purposefully used words like "almost" and "usually" to account for some human margin of error.

I'm starting to see a trend with you too, but I'm afraid I'm not an adlib. You can't just pretend I said something and then argue against it.


I've never said it did.

*scratches forehead*

Are you implying that you can only use FS once per mission? Or Transference? Fulcrum Shift, at a 99% recharge value comes back to us in 30.1s and has a duration of 45s. Barring the occasional miss when people do not know to stay grouped together the effect will be permanent.

Why do I get the feeling the only power you HAVE on your Kin is SB?

I was using IO values. You'll notice my value is .99 as opposed to .95. The math is not incorrect. I shouldn't have rounded off the .1s and I should have mentioned I wasn't taking into consideration animation times. You're right though, Fortitude sucks even more than my example could have illustrated, and the benefit it generates from speed boost can be replicated rather easily with a much lower amount of recharge. It's still not going to 'effect everyone once SB is applied', as I think The Coming Storm was stating.

Well I'm glad it's okay when you do it.

To begin with, you are already assuming a 99% enhancement value (meaning you've suddenly adopted IO's, which you apparently had a problem with when I did it, but never mind that, I'm getting kind of used to this level of hypocrisy), the actual power takes 300s to recharge and is reduced to 150s after the application. So, no, SB didn't "singhandedly" do anything.

Furthermore, you didn't say anything I didn't either. I too mention that we now only have 30s of downtime. I even mentioned that I enjoyed that aspect. I'm not sure why you're acting like I omitted this data or something.

Again, you aren't pointing out anything new to me or anyone else. Once again, I've already mentioned that I think that's a good improvement. I purposefully made a distinction between long recharge powers vs short, stating that SB has very little effect on short recharge abilities, and a moderate effect upon long.

I then go on to mention that, in light of this, I still do not think SB is necessary because Fulcrum Shift is so stupidly powerful what with it's massive five billion percent recharge reduction rate and all.



I'm sorry, is moving onto another example scattering your widdle brain? I'll try to ease you in next time.

Dis-proven by who, exactly? As far as I know, SB isn't necessary outside your own perception of necessary was my argument. That I continue to support that argument shouldn't really come as a shock to you. I'm not sure what you're stating, yet again.

Also "+recharge translates to damage" is, in fact, an identical statement towards "recharge = damage". You would need to add onto the first statement "but can also help make utility powers more effective as well" to get anything slightly differing from the first.

Not that I ever said or implied that I thought recharge = damage. In fact, my argument could be more accurately summarized as "200-250% damage > 50% recharge + a head ache"

The amount of people who don't seem to understand the basic function of time is astounding. Let's review, once a ****-gain. The MAXIMUM amount of time it takes to SB an entire team, not including yourself obviously and not factoring in arcanatime is, and will always be 19 seconds. Unless you add recharge to yourself, you will not escape this inevitable truth.

No where have I ever stated that you cannot be doing SOMETHING ELSE with the 2 second (less with arcanatime) window you have between SB recycling. You WILL however, have to stop doing SOMETHING in order to use SB.

An insult doesn't work if you have to PRETEND I said something so that you can insult it. That the only other person who doesn't seem to get that concept is THE COMING STORM should indicate some kind of major failing on your part. It's THE COMING STORM, for heaven's sake.


Dont' forget they only have brawl *thumbs up*.

I'm done talking to you specifically, much as I am no longer addressing TCS. If there is anyone else who would like to discuss the complexities of Speed Boost without resorting to becoming an angry, frothing idiot to do so, I would be grateful to have an actual discussion with them.

There's a thread called "What can other Secondaries do better than Shield Defense" in the Scrapper forum, where Castle and many others mention that SC is over performing, and Castle deducts that this is because of a broken modifier in the AT value or some such. At any rate, it is going to be nerfed.

I would think they could, you know, turn on a travel power. Else I have Inertial Reduction as well, if they really can't move faster than a snails pace. a Granite Tank/Brute is really the only character I see having problems in the movement department.

On that note, the /Kin SBing everyone is almost assured to come in last, with the party arriving at different intervals if you buff after the fight, or the Kin will be doing drastically less damage if you do it during. Assuming argument 1, the party will arrive at the spawn at very different intervals and have to wait for the Kin to arrive, or just go in without him and do drastically reduced damage in comparison as they wait for him to arrive so he can use FS and move the team along.

Furthermore, SBing people seems to have the adverse effect of what you are implying based on my own interaction with the power; I usually notice most of my team run into a wall shortly after application and then defiantly challenge the wall to it's perception of self for a good 30 seconds before backing up... and running into a DIFFERENT wall.

In contrast, the Kin who just doesn't need to worry about SB is usually at the spawn first or at the same time as everyone else. He is now able to immediately utilize FS, and then immediately move on. The team stays together almost the entire time.

I'll mention it again, just so I can stop getting this explanation, I'm well aware of what recharge does. I even commented on it's usefulness. The point is that with Transference and Fulcrum Shift your team is buffed to such a high degree that you do not need your powers going any faster. You will be wiping spawns before everyone has cycled through their attack chain. Fulcrum Shift is that stupidly powerful.



But let's try to get some numbers into this otherwise very opinionated thread. (Note to self: Just do math first. It's always going to be required, so you might as well not kid yourself.)

Fortitude was one of the powers I heard mentioned, and for good reason. It turns whoever it's cast upon into a tank in their own right. While I might question the need for the Empath's little dambuff spell when compared to my mighty, sexy, and charismatic Fulcrum Shift, it's none the less a good buff. It's not super model material, but I wouldn't mind sitting next to it at the beach.

The formula for recharge is:

Recharge Time= Base Recharge / (100% + buffs - debuffs)

Fortitude, when 3 slotted for recharge come back at 30s. With a duration of 120 seconds, that means it can be kept up constantly on 4 people. That's not bad.

Math: 30.1s = 60s / (1 + .99)

The .99 being the enhancement value we get from 3 slotting with recharge. Now then, let's get some Speed Boost going on that character and watch that Fortitude really take off!

Math: 24.09s = 60s / (1 + .99 + .5)

Er... 24 seconds? That's it? Okay, so we can still only buff four people. We certainly aren't keeping the entire team fortified. SB Hasn't really helped us at all. But sixty seconds is still a fairly short amount of time, let's take a look at what it does to a long recharge power like Adrenaline Boost.

Adrenaline Boost has a 300s recharge, which can be brought down to 150.7s with a recharge reduction value of 99%, or 3 rechredux enhancements. Let's add SB!

Math: 120.48 = 300s / (1 + .99 + .5)

Alright, we shaved off a good 30 seconds this time. Unfortunately the buff doesn't last long enough for it to matter a whole ton, we'll still only be able to put it on a single character. However, that means the character being Boosted in this manner will only have 30 seconds of downtime where the buff isn't being applied to them. That is "not bad".

Heat Loss, (3 rechredux enhancements) will go from 180s to 144s.

Also, 90s (the common recharge for Build Up/Aim and others) will be reduced too 36s from a recharge value of 45s (3 slots blah blah blah)

Why is it that we do not see a massive performance increase unless we go beyond 60-90s? Recharge has what is called ~diminishing returns~ in that the more of it you add, the less response you get for it. So adding 50% recharge on top of powers that already have it really isn't going to do as much for us as we'd like to believe. While we do see some marked benefit on very long recharge powers, it is still by no means suddenly allowing them to be spammed all over the place. The enhancement they gain from SB is "not bad", which is definitely a far cry from "the best buff ever". For low recharge powers SB isn't really doing enough to warrant its' use, and while you might argue that not everyone has rechredux slotted into their powers, I might also argue that I shouldn't have to conform my build to players who don't know how to build theirs.

As your character engages in being level 50 the amount of characters that have enough recharge to fit their needs is always going to continue increasing, making SB continuously less useful. A "Good" team, or even just a competent or sucky one, isn't going to need SB for the large majority of their powers as Fulcrum Shift will provide all the necessary omgwut that you will need. That the Kin can *also* solve your endurance issues while simultaneously neutering a key target should be some kind of criminal. Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost, and Heat Loss simply can't compare in the sustained potential Fulcrum Shift alone can offer.

People not playing Kins because they don't want to SB everyone for 19 seconds (still max) every 2 minutes is a terrible shame when the answer to their problems is obvious and still so incredibly viable. As it is, SB ranges from "not bad" at lower levels and then continues to be more detrimental as you move on.

Well luckily for you, I don't cast it at all, so you can always enjoy your relative level of speed.

Ah, but see, you've taken me out of context and side tracked into a different discussion entirely. The point of the question is that in light of everything else a /Kin can do, SB is mere icing. Until I run the sort of test I mention above, I cannot confirm whether or not it's actually detrimental, so for the time being question whether or not it's still necessary and I am decidedly in the "no" camp. It's a very lonely camp, but we have lots of spare marsh mellows, so that helps curb the depression some.

My apologies, you seem to have missed any of the arguments in the post you are quoting or the one before it. Go ahead and read through it, pick any of those examples, and let me know when you are ready.

We aren't speaking about theorical perfect teams, we're speaking about Kin with some mysterious group A who we have not confirmed the identity of.

Also Shield Charge is broken, and is stated as 'being looked into.' That and Fire/Kin totally pwnz it, yo.

Transference will eliminate any endurance issues your team might have while simultaneously debuffing a key target. So all we're left with is 50% recharge, and that is unnecessary after Fulcrum Shift. This has been mentioned before, and so has the "Well not everyone has those powers right out of the gate" rebuttal you might be thinking of replying with.


It's really not, and I'm sorry you don't know how to make a well designed character. I could help you, if you'd like.

Aaand time. I never said SB was useless, I said it wasn't necessary. Since you're quoting me specifically I'm going to assume you think that is my position, and I wish to assure you that it is not. If we are talking about some hypothetical, then never mind.

People are going to do all of this regardless of whether or not I have SB. Since they've now apparently risen up from the commoner status you gave them only moments before, I have to further question why I need to SB them when I can provide them with benefits that greatly overshadow it with the rest of my powers while simultaneously increasing my personal enjoyment and effectiveness.

And for the record, I've already stated, quite clearly, that I do not wish to be on teams that need SB to fix their builds any more than I wish to be on teams than think they need a Heal0rz. If it's not clear, I do not think people of these mentalities have the necessary intelligence that I would deem enjoyable to be around.

Though I do admire your rather direct and nonsensical need to insult people you just entered into discussion with. Bravo, your lack of tact shall be remembered for the ages.

And thus you begin to understand my inability to answer such a question. Someone of equal skill assumes... Well, me. I am my own skill. 1 = 1.

Myself would not have taken SB, so the question is already flawed. Which prompts me to re-acertain my position in some cheeky response, rather than give me the more obvious answer of "you wouldn't" which would infer that I believe SB is at all a necessary power.

The overly difficult part about proving any sort of point in any direction is that it requires a Kin, one with SB and one without, of exactly equal levels of skill to run the exact same mission with the same group and record the completion time of the group on that mission. Then make different group with these kins and keep running tests like this until an overall consensus can be achieved.

As I'm not going to do that, You instead we are stuck with "SB is the best thing ever because I said so" or "SB is not that great because I said so."

My own personal experience, from having SB and getting rid of it, is that SB is not necessary and that not having it allows me to enjoy my Kins much more thoroughly, which is kind of important to me when I am spending my free time.

/e sidetrack

Some, perhaps masochistic, side of enjoys using it during combat. Even on my controller I was not quite as aware of what the enemies could do and what my team mates could allow me to do as I was playing a /Dev Blaster.

Other than that, I usually try to run ahead of my team after my AOE cycle to set up the bomb. I feel very much like some kind of suicidal AOE stalker on my /dev. Then again, if you aren't feeling joyfully suicidal while playing a blaster, you're doing something wrong.

It is 50% recharge. Perhaps you feel a stronger adjective is needed, but I do not.

Which is great at low levels, but by the time you have transference everyone should have a competent attack chain that does not require SB to be utilized. By Fulcrum Shift the extra 50% recharge becomes only "not bad" as the damage offered by FS is so large that the extra recharge becomes excessively unnecessary.

Well of course they do. But is that extra benefit really *needed*? Again, it is only "not bad" in light of everything else a Kin can do. That other players live without speed boost all of the time should be some kind of testament to why they do not need alien recharge added to them.

I don't broadcast my Corr/Defender as anything other than "Lv??? Corr/Defender LFT" so as to purposefully avoid teams that think they need SB and expect me to keep it on them at all times. I don't broadcast my Empath defender as such for much of the same reason.

Someone of my equal skill wouldn't have taken SB as they recognize that it is mostly a time sink and only useful in a limited number of situations that usually involve poorly designed characters.

Other than that, one should take into account that a Kin who isn't SB the entire party every two minutes isn't either caught last to the next spawn or isn't busy throwing SB all over the place during combat. Which is not to say that such a thing happens to Speed Boosters every fresh spawn, but at the same time, you'd be a liar to pretend it didn't. Instead, my kin is always at the battle, ready to throw out Fulcrum Shift and drain the endurance of key targets. My Kin is throwing out AOE's and contributing to killing the spawn even faster so that we can truly know what it is to steamroll. Given a steamroll either way, why should I take a power I don't enjoy?

But, honestly, I probably wouldn't join your party in the first place, and I don't mean that to sound rude, we simply have conflicting goals. You want SB, and I don't want to give it. I don't see why we should make a big deal out of not wanting to play with another, other than we both think each others desires are idiotic.


For the proponents of SB, I have to ask, have you tried *not* having Speed Boost before?

You must not be familiar with how TIME works. Just because you apply them haphazardly doesn't mean they still don't accumulate to (at max) 19 seconds.

For example, stand there for 30 seconds, but spend a total of 19 seconds picking your nose. You can either pick your nose for the full 19 seconds, or you can divide it into shorter intervals, the choice is yours, just make sure you spend a total of 19 seconds in there during the 30 seconds allotted. At the end, you will have noticed 19 seconds have passed. That's because THIS IS HOW TIME WORKS.

Besides that, if you were really good, you wouldn't be casting Speed Boost *during* combat, you'd be casting it inbetween. Regardless of how you apply it, Speed Boost has a bunch of annoying complications that usually focus around the theme of, "Oh my god stop running away from me god **** it I'm going to nail your head into the ground so I don't have to find you anymore." which can lengthen the amount of time it takes to apply the thing to everyone. You may opt not to cast it on people such as this. I opt not to cast it at all (for reasons already detailed.)


Moving away from you now, because I demand to have a discussion with someone who has an intellect higher than the object in his avatar;

The argument that you shouldn't play Kin if you don't like speed boosting doesn't really hold merit. SB is a nice buff but it is far from being anything but the icing on a cake after Transference and Fulcrum Shift. Once you recognize that your team should never have endurance problems again after Transference, you realize that SB is giving a 50% recharge buff to everyone. That's not bad, it's nothing to be sneezed at, but I have to question how necessary it is after Fulcrum Shift has given everyone a 250% (defender) dam buff. Obviously it's still going to hold some merit, but during the twisty agonizing "arresting" that results after a Fulcrum Shift I have a very difficult time seeing why we needed everyone to be 50% faster on top of all this destruction. Especially when it saves me sanity.

Yeah... They should kill everyone in the zone and a system message going "area has been claimed by hell for the rest of the day" and anyone within the zone is stuck there, the fog never clears, the npc's all turn into ghosts, and all the spawns are replaced by Deadly Apocalypse enemies.

Heh, I can just imagine.

Little Werner: Mom... Dad... I don't want to be a teacher.

Werner's Mother: Oh, dear, Werne-

Werner's Father: What is the meaning of this, son!?

Little Werner: I... I want to do math in a video game. I want to help people to understand it. I'll still be educating, just, in a different way.

Werner's Mother: Baby, maybe you should reth-

Werner's Father, rising, angry: I HAVE NO SON!

That's actually not entirely unlikely. It would really depend upon when Blue Steel *ahem* encountered the Clockwork King when he was still human. He is depicted during that event as being a young man, but he may have had time to get his groove on and make a Penelope.

The bolded part definitely seems like something a father would say to his daughter.

Perhaps I'm not stressing the correct word enough...

My stalker was able to do FAR more damage FAR more quickly.

The level of damage I was doing over the DS felt out of place to what I'm used too. It really has nothing to do with Stalker, that's just what I was playing when I noted the observation. I often felt like the demons were just standing there, being really bright and obscuring, and given how few people understand MM, they may very well have been doing just that. My Corr also seems to be doing better overall damage, and she was loldualpistols.

I'm not going to pass final judgment until I play one myself, of course.

You can tell when TA is mentally broken because he starts talking like the Rikti...


On the subject of enhanced AI, I really prefer that sort of things in very specific Story Arcs or in Task/Strike Forces. I don't want to always have to think really hard about what I'm doing every time I get in the game, but at the same time I still like that there's opportunity to be challenged if I so desire it.

TELEkinetic defines that the power is manifested from some focused mental energy. The smashing part comes from the fact that it is physically repelling you. That said, the rest of the set is entirely psychic or buffs/controls.

Kinetic melee is the polar opposite of Telekinesis. It is brought on by physical movement, and the ability to manipulate the energies produced by them, which is what most martial arts are about; Figuring out how to best optimize the transfer of energy from their bodies to their target. The 'One-Inch-Punch' is a good example of this science.

They look like they all watched Kill Bill and then decided to make a gang based around the antics of the protagonist.

Time Bomb is bad from a DPS standpoint. You are waiting agonizingly long for the thing to go off at which point any other Blaster likely would have killed the entire spawn. Not in such, utter, paint dryingly boring safety, but I have to question how much they require that safety when they're doing it *all the time* from level 1-50.

It's far faster, about as safe, and more damage efficient to place a Trip Mine in close proximity of the enemies, and Jump Back while activating Flamethrower and then use Full Auto from the distance gained in such a maneuver.

Honestly, I would like it if we could just get rid of Time Bomb entirely. Most fixes have it stepping on Trip Mine's shoes or becoming Trip Mine in itself. You'd be far better off just designing an entirely different power.

I'm voting for a 'Range Amplifier Device' personally.

I can't tell for sure.

She seems to have the same tone at the end of the clockwork description as she does when she's telling us to pay attention to the giant cuff thingies on the vahzi- I mean, the Ghouls.

Perhaps Cole ate the Clockwork King and gained his powers, I don't know. I'd like to think he kept the goofy looking googly eyes as a memento.