Thinkso

I'm not devaluing defense, but I can't speak for anyone else really. A single FF def is capable of putting everyone withing a stones skip of softcap, so adding a second one, or even one of the other buff/debuff sets that brings solid def/tohit debuffing quickly becomes overkill on that aspect of mitigation.

On the other hand, even when you have an abundance of defense cold still brings things of high value to almost any team. Heck the only set that brings better stackablility than cold is radiation.

FWIW I already said that cold is comparatively stronger on Controllers against its brethren than it is on defenders explicitly because of benumb, HL, sleet, infrig, snowstorm, and FW being just as good +/- a tiny bit (very similar to how kin translates between the two AT's). But that isn't the same thing as devaluing defense, but rather highlighting one of cold's best tools - recharge/slow debuffing. Which is something a lot of people overlook. Heavy recharge debuffing provides huge amounts of mitigation.

When it comes to specific combos though really that is a can of worms best left unopened. But I stand by my earlier statement that cold/x (or x/cold) is almost always better on a team than ff/x (or x/ff). It's especially true the more forcemultipliers you start to add to the pot, but it is also true as the only source of support. But again, when I say 'almost always' i don't mean 100% of the time, but easily often enough where if you care about that kind of thing it will be tangible.

A more lofty statement is that cold/x is > ff/y. While this is also true for most configurations as you mentioned a superior blast set like sonic for single target take down, or archery for aoe damage is powerful enough to negate the statement. But again that is a different premise than the discussion of Cold vs FF.

I don't know what your motivations are. I prefer cold because it makes a team faster and safer than FF across a wider array of content. But I'll echo the sentiment that a FF toon (regardless of AT) is generally quite welcome...just not as welcome as a cold

I've talked extensively with him in game and out regarding build possibilities. (not pertinent to the topic, but he is very helpful and friendly in 1 on 1 conversations).

He detailed to me his plans for bane's, fire/fire/mace(or ice) doms (which would have issues topping 400 dps under ideal circumstances fyi), and a build I've never seen mentioned anywhere - sonic/elec/mace as a procc'd out buzzsaw with perma spiderlings, which was quite unique and potentially very damaging.

We also talked about fire/elec upon my request because it is a much lauded build on these forums and has this 'legendary' status as being the king of st damage. He showed me that after everything is said and done the toon burns so much endurance that powersink needs to be spammed every single time it is up. The end result of which hovers closer to 285dps w/ a 95% tohit chance. Worth noting though is that the 'burst' damage potential is off the chart.

When I asked why he hasn't done any blasters he told me they don't do enough damage for it to be worth the time investment. He said he can make builds from almost any other AT that will be tougher and kill hard stuff faster and that there are better minion munchers out there too, so he saw no purpose to pursuing a blaster extensively. Although one of his spreadsheets had an arch/fire blaster that looked like it could blow most aoe toons out of the water.

The best part of it all was that the spreadsheet he sent me had some of the most insane builds imaginable like his one of a kind illusion/cold controller that has crushed everything else recorded on these boards in terms of hard target kill speeds. One time I watched him kill a lvl 53 Statesman (no insp) in about 12 min, which is something that full teams often struggle to do lol. Ya surviving on Illusion is pretty easy, but the damage output was astounding and was arguably the best aspect of the toon. I watched him engage (ie not confuse) and kill lvl 50 Posi, BaB's, and States at the same time (no insp)...That's when I realized how strong that build was because his pets were all over the place fighting different targets and he still dropped them each crazy fast.

Anyway, at the bottom of the spreadsheet were his predictions of what that toon could do with the new mace app: I don't even want to mention it because it was so unbelievable. Lets just say it detailed how he would take down all 18 pylons solo without insp/temps before they started respawning. You can use your imagination to figure out what he wanted to do next.

The spreadsheet had a half dozen or so pages detailing builds that just don't get talked about around here (like the ones mentioned above and some MM breakdowns that go beyond anything I've seen anyone post about in this game. Heck even an illusion/fire dominator was detailed and wow that would be a powerhouse build). All of which have the potential to flat out stomp what conventional wisdom on these boards tell us are 'high' damage dealers. His build ideas were really just on a different level.

* Anyway I figure he probably doesn't mind me sharing this info as we both left the game as GR launched and no end game development in sight. I've been following the forums a bit since then (grabbed a trial cause I was bored the other day) and when we talked about the incarnate levels being spread over multiple issues that will probably take multiple years to be released he said the chances of him ever coming back were slim to none. Oh well, hopefully someone will pick up where he left off and continue min/maxing toons at an unparalleled level.

Oh I'm well aware.
ROA+fiist+explosive takes.
6.6 seconds to execute
224 damage before buffs and scourge

RoF+fireball+firebreath (very good idea to use RoF first) takes.
6.336 seconds to execute
247 damage before buffs and scourge

Fire does more aoe damage and releases it faster.
RoF checks scourge with every tick (75 ticks) and triple scourges when it triggers. With a base damage of 125.1 vs 148.5 RoF only needs to scourge on 5 ticks to equal the damage of RoA, every tick after that will make it pull further and further ahead because each time it scourges it does 3x base damage as opposed to 2x base damage like other scourging powers. IME RoF may as well be called rain of scourge, whereas RoA is a pleasant surprise when it scourges much.

If the spawn dies in about 8 seconds or less then Arch is probably better pretending that lethal and fire are equally resisted, which is rarely true. If it dies in more than that Fire is a lot better aoe set.

Same goes for the specific powers of RoF vs RoA, if the spawn dies rapidly RoA is better, but RoF can quickly catch up and surpass RoA. And given how few corrs can dispatch of an entire spawn in the duration of aim or less it is generally fire being the superior aoe set. There is always inferno too, but that is neither here nor there.

But at any rate even if we give the nod to RoA vs RoF, the original statement I disagreed with was that arch does "BETTER" (emphasis yours) aoe than Fire. That just isn't true for corruptors, though it largely holds true for blasters and defs (if/when they ever get fire). I only mentioned the 3x mechanic on RoF because it was implied that everyone already knew that fireball+firebreath was quite a bit more damaging than explosive+fist and that due to the nature of RoF it can very easily catch up and surpass RoA and arch as a whole.

Truth be told FF is arguably better short term against damage types that cold provides no resistance to. Over a longer duration and against anything that cold resists it is always better.

Also when I say 'short term' it has to essentially be capped at the initial volley (ie however many attacks the foe(s) have before needing to repeat attacks) from the foes because the -rech of cold will kick in. Cold very easily -rech caps +1's with its 'every spawn' powers of just sleet and snowstorm. Aside from that both sets are both good at breaking up the flow of attacks with sleet and Rbomb+Fbubble respectively.


It's worth noting that I didn't actually compare Fbubble vs HL other than noting they are both t9's. I even mentioned they are both good powers, but that I prefer HL because it is both an amazing buff and debuff allowing one to use it for multiple functions if they desire. I prefer flexibility, which imo Cold has in spades.

The other two 'utility' powers line up very well and can be compared directly as they actually perform similar roles though achieve so by different means.

I don't think that has been the case at all. Even when directly asked what was preferred on content that caps out at 25 the answer has been Cold outside of some specific mob types.

Yes we are largely pretending that the cold/ff is the only mitigative source on the team, but that is actually to the advantage of FF. Cold stacks better with other buff/debuff sets because it is layered mitigation.

Lastly, a def vs def is the best scenario for FF as cold is actually comparitively even stronger for controllers vs controller FF. Def FF is actually quite a bit stronger than troller FF, but Def cold isn't as trollers have largely the same values (or even better for benumb) on the offensive and active mitigation powers. And as we know cold has multiple tricks up its sleeve, a huge one of which is -rech/slow and offensive boosting.
The answer more often than not regardless of level is Cold. It stacks better with other powersets.
Almost invariably Cold; assuming it is an available pairing...
A bots or thugs/cold would decimate compared to a bots/ff. Illusion/cold is one of, if not the, most powerful combos in the game judging on the work I've seen in the pylon thread and in one or more controller threads.
Aside from RP motivations and purposefully choosing unsightly color configurations Cold is almost always better than FF in almost every scenario. From an uber-min/max perspective FF will never be on that players radar, but cold should be near the top of their list as long as the player is looking at the set from a team perspective which was the premise of this thread. If someone is looking for ultimate personal survivability they would pick FF. Cold is the strongest teaming set in the game, so I don't think FF should feel bad about losing such a comparison, just as Cold wouldn't feel bad if someone asked what the best set is to wade in to an entire spawn and go afk and the answer was FF w/ pff. Nor would cold feel bad if someone asked what the best alpha absorbing set is and the answer was traps w/ seeker drones. etc. etc. But for what this thread asked, the answer is almost invariably cold.

I agree with your feelings regarding fire/dark. It is very good, but so are a lot of corrs. Some are considerably stronger than fire/dark in late game too, for those that are patient.

I disagree that archery for corrs does more aoe than fire for corrs. Rain of fire tripple scourges and as a result just ends up being rediculously good for corrs.

While your dps figures are exaggerated a bit for both combos, this is so very true. /ice app for doms is also an excellent choice and even benefits the entire team like a corruptor would.

Maybe. When your blaster has taken out throngs of AV's solo, and even multiples at once, without a single inspiration or temp power give me a call. Until then, in many situations corrs can and do outdamage blasters, just like in many situations blasters can and do outdamage corrs. That is just solo too, by and large corrs always bring more to a team.

So you used a power with a 13 min recharge and another one with a 6 min recharge and still had to resort to using inspirations.

Is that supposed to be impressive?

One time I popped a couple warburg nukes on a spawn and they all died. A fire/kin was like "wow, I gotta get one of those". I said, "well you can probably replenish them faster than Airhammer can cycle EMP..."

Anyway, all kidding aside, some blasters are more or less ok (mainly fire and arch) and some blasters aren't. Scrappers and brutes definitely do too much damage given their survivability relative to blasters, many corrs, defs, doms, and trollers do too much damage given their survivability and/or team utility relative to blasters. About the only AT that is probably ok relative to blasters are stalkers.

FWIW if anyone really wants to back up their belief that blasters are fine then get someone to taunt a pylon, I can guarantee you won't beat the best scrapper times, let alone get anywhere near the times Frosticus has posted with MM's and trollers. The latter of which is bordering on ludicrous.

Yes blasters can deal out some good aoe even if we accept that they aren't near the best st damage dealers (though they should be hands down). But they aren't near the best aoe damage dealers either or else they would be used as farmers more often because farmers take the easy mobs and slaughter them en masse, which is what people are saying blasters excel at...

Cold. SPTF caps at 25 so you have your level 30 powers. So Cold has everything except HL and FF has everything except Fbubble. So cold hands down.

Even at the levels before cold gains offensive boosting abilities it is still easily on par with FF from a mitigative standpoint as long as the player is using their abilities.

The only way I wouldn't prefer the Cold is if the user picked some garish over-bright color for the ally shields. Then again, Dispersion can be made fairly ugly too.

The other exception would be on something like Synapse TF with heavy end drainers. However, late game end draining enemies I'll still prefer cold as HL does a good enough job keeping everyone full most of the time, plus you have the rest of superior cold helping out.

A mixture of survivability coupled with sustainable damage. ie if your scrapper can attack without pause for ~10 min or so without tanking endurance most primaries will be in a position to out dps AV regen.
Sometimes. Some AV's are really easy, some aren't. If the rolls work in your favor you may only be hit a couple times the whole fight. Other times it will smoke you repeatedly and you'll be in trouble.
Your attack speed just needs to be fast enough to maintain w/e attack chain you want to use. Additional rech will help if you have powers like dullpain. You'll want enough acc to hit consistently at 95%. Most AV's people solo with scrappers are even con as they aren't quite powerful enough to take on +con AV's like some of the debuff sets are. That isn't to say it can't be done, but I doubt any scrapper could take out a +3 AV like some traps, cold, or rad builds can. So the +acc needed to hit even cons isn't much and any AV spec scrapper will have more than enough by virtue of it being such a common set bonus.

As far as damage, I think any primary except spines can be built to out dps AV regen. Elec might struggle too, but leaning on fireblast in the app can help it a bit.

Well I don't necessarily agree that debuffs don't fit the concept of the set. I could see -res (and -def) easily being added to powers like Fbolt or Repulsion Bomb in the sense that they hit with so much force that they break armor.

If Fbolt had like 30%-res I wouldn't feel so bad for FF users being stomped on by nearly everyone and their dog having nem staff that not only serves a similar purpose it also does a heap of damage.

I dunno, but I look at it this way. FF is essentially a pure buff set. As a result it should be a better buff set than any hybrid buff/debuff set. It currently isn't. You can either make FF a stronger buff set (which it already is quite good at), you can turn it into more of a hybrid by expanding the foe affecting powers, or you can nerf some of the existing hybrids to improve FF by proxy.

Interestingly enough this is almost an identical conversation that can be had regarding TA, just replace pure buff with pure debuff being out performed by some of the hybrid sets.

I'm of the mindset that it is actually the hybrid sets that are too good. Rad, dark, cold, and traps for example, are all very powerful sets that can encroach well into the territory occupied by some of the more 'pure' sets, while still excelling at things that the 'pure' sets can't even begin to do. But if given the choice I'd probably prefer to see FF and TA improved rather than lowering other sets.

The math fairy left them under my pillow.
I'll expand though if you like.
Def has 1017hp (1606 capped)

FF provides 39% def. That means mobs have an 11% chance to hit. Which basically gives you the equivalent of someone with 9245.5 hp. With 1 slotted health you have 157% regen. Over a 2 min window a 1017 hp toon would regen 798 hp. 9245.5+798 = 10043.8

Cold provides 31.2% def and caps hp. That means mobs have an 18.8% chance to hit. Which basically gives yo the equivalent of someone with 8542.5 hp. With 1 slotted heath you have 157% regen. Over a 2 min window a 1606 hp toon would regen 1260.7 hp. 8542.5+1260.7 = 9803.2

So against S/L which neither set provides resistance to FF is about 2.4% better over a reasonable time frame. A shorter window makes FF look better. A longer window makes Cold look better due to the extra regen. Pick w/e you like as they are close enough to be called equal.

Against any type of damage that cold provides resistance to such as energy, fire, or cold it is considerably tougher than FF.

*The obvious rebuttal is for someone to try and devalue +hp, or start talking about scenarios where x happens to make the value of additional def more important. The flexibility of Cold provided by layered mitigation and the willingness that it accepts additional buff/debuffers/IO's should probably halt anyone in their tracks that would want to venture down that path. As long as someone understands that Cold+x (where x is another buff/debuff set) > FF+ x in most game scenarios.

Well I thought that was obvious in the previous post. Once you compare what they offer in terms of survivability and offensive boosting (which FF has none of the latter) you are left with several powers that sit alone as unique and largely specific to only the set they are found in. For instance Caging is quite rare and is something that FF brings that very few other sets provide. Similarly, -special is quite rare and something that Cold brings that few other sets provide. They are both single target and situational. Same goes for team mez protection vs team slow/rech protection. Which just leaves the t9's standing alone.

The unique powers of a set can be quite profound in determining the overall effectiveness of a set. For instance even if the numbers said the FF was considerably stronger at mitigation than Cold (which is isn't) the fact that Cold is one of the best sets in the game against AV's might sway someone to give it the nod if that suites their gameplay. As it stands though Cold is superior in mitigation, offense, and unique utility powers when played in a team setting. But again, that isn't saying FF is terrible. It's just not nearly as good as Cold when examined under the parameters of most team settings.

Edit: another way to look at it is if a mob does say 100dps of S/L your squishy friend would survive for 233 seconds protected by a FF user. He'd survive for 193 seconds protected by a Cold user. When just comparing the buffs they have. Against a mob that does 200 dps S/L it would be 66 sec for the FF and 59 sec for the Cold. If it is a damage type that cold provides some res against it will always be better and if you factor in any of the considerable -rech that cold offers it will always be better.