The_PMD

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I'm going to have to come down on the side of there being such a thing as talent as well as skill.


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Just for clarity's sake, I don't think anyone ever said there was no such thing as talent. My original contention was not that it doesn't exist but that it played a more minor role than hard work. My opinion is that talent reduces the amount of work that one has to do to be good, and sets the upper limit of how good you can be. But I believe that everyone can learn to draw to some extent. And that learning to draw is a better use of one's time than sitting around wishing you had talent. Unless you want to become Alex Ross, chances are you have enough talent to make drawings that will please you if you're willing to work at it.

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IMHO, not everyone can draw.

I go to an art university, and not to be boastful, but not everyone can draw...well.

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Nobody is saying that every person can actually draw. The point many of us is making is that everyone is capable of LEARNING to draw. Whether or not you learn is a matter of how interested and dedicated you are to it, and where your talent level puts you in terms of how much work is required. Some people learn faster.

Take Rowr. Im not ready to say that her drawings are on a Jomaro level yet, but it's clear she has talent. Why? Well, one, how quickly she's improved. Two, I posted pencils of my villain and she gave me an excellent critique of it. Usually the first step of learning how to draw is learning how to see, and she obviously sees drawings very clearly. That's talent. On the other hand, I had a student in a 3d modeling class this past quarter who, I realized, lacked the ability to conceptualize in 3d, which is a skill a lot of people come into my school with. We would look at a source picture of, say, a statue, and this guy had no idea whatsoever what was on the hidden side of the statue. So, that's a low talent level. But I still think he'll be able to model in 3d if he really wants to. It's just going to require a lot more work out of him than almost everyone else in the class.

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Given the same amount of time, someone with the inherent ability to draw well will always draw better than the person who couldn't draw well in the first place.

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"Given the same amount of time"

Part of the point I was trying to make is that people with more talent get better faster. So, yeah, a less talented person needs to work harder. But that doesn't mean they can't ever do it. It just means they have to put in more time. But even the people who have talent have to put in time.

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The one thing I've really noticed with people who cannot easily learn to draw well? Shaky hands and lack of refined Hand-Eye coordination.

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Well, barring a physical condition like the one mentioned by someone else, drawing a lot can go a long ways towards refining one's hand-eye coordination. But that works better if it starts earlier.

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Just look at me! I think I'm doing pretty well in such a short time, I'm just afraid I'm gonna 'plateau' and not get much better.

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I don't know why you would be worried about such a thing.

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Seriously...do you think it's entirely possible for anyone to draw well?

Man...thats a hard mindset for me to get over... I've never been able to put anything reasonable on paper. Even my stick-men suck.

But....you've kinda given me hope....

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I really do think that. But it takes a LOT of work, especially if you only start learning as an adult.

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umbridge. That's a big word!!!!!!!

Dang you brits and your big words!

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LOL

I won't do it again, Rowr.. don't beat me...again... please....

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Or, at the very least, spell it correctly. "Umbrage."

Getting back to the thread:
And, yes, of COURSE people don't literally mean it. And, yes, I understand what sarcasm is. I grew up in Massachusetts where sarcasm is the unofficial second language. The point I was trying to make is WHY be sarcastic when you're supposed to be complimenting someone on their hard work? It's bad form. Is it that hard to just give the compliment without the backhand?

Anyway, another thing I wanted to know is if other artists were bothered by it, and it doesn't seem that they are. And, by starting this thread, I've pretty much made it a fait accompli that when I finish my pic of my main villain, the thread is just going to be people telling me that they hate me (whether they like the pic or not), so I guess it's run its course.

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It's bad form? Honestly, I wouldn't notice. It's not even that strong a language. In my life it wouldn't be unusual to hear this kind of conversation:

"Hey man, I just got a 150k a year job where I get some sweet loving from beautiful ladies, oh yea."
"[censored] you, you son of a [censored] . I hope you fall in a fire and die. [censored] . "
"Ha ha, suck it!"

Well, I'd never hear the part about one of my friends getting that kind of job. But that's just friendly conversation.

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Sure, I talk to my FRIENDS like that too. But from strangers it's a little odd. IMO

First off, I love your "Golden Age" style. It looks like we share a love of Jack Kirby and all he meant to comics.

But his left eye is too high.

I like some of the others further down the thread. I look forward to seeing more of your work!

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It's something that has always irritated the hell out of me, and I have learned to accept it. But at the same time, I really dislike when people say "It's something that anyone can pick up," because it's not. I'll admit that I am jealous of people who can pick up a piece of paper and just draw.

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Okay, well that's a different case entirely and I apologize for painting with such a broad brush and offending you.

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umbridge. That's a big word!!!!!!!

Dang you brits and your big words!

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LOL

I won't do it again, Rowr.. don't beat me...again... please....

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Or, at the very least, spell it correctly. "Umbrage."

Getting back to the thread:
And, yes, of COURSE people don't literally mean it. And, yes, I understand what sarcasm is. I grew up in Massachusetts where sarcasm is the unofficial second language. The point I was trying to make is WHY be sarcastic when you're supposed to be complimenting someone on their hard work? It's bad form. Is it that hard to just give the compliment without the backhand?

Anyway, another thing I wanted to know is if other artists were bothered by it, and it doesn't seem that they are. And, by starting this thread, I've pretty much made it a fait accompli that when I finish my pic of my main villain, the thread is just going to be people telling me that they hate me (whether they like the pic or not), so I guess it's run its course.

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Although, if the art fairy came and whacked me on the head with a talent stick, I don't think I'd mind it so much.

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You have plenty of talent. More than enough. Your drawings improve so much from one to the next that, if you keep it up, in about a year you could be quite good.

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I've seen people that were able to draw quite skillfully give it up for a time and their 'art muscle' gets weak

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::raises his hand, then runs away ashamed::

Seriously, though, this board is great for inspiration. I'm drawing more now than I have in the last ten or so years. And I SWEAR I'll have more stuff to post...uh...soon. (I said I was drawing "more" not "as much as Jomaro!")

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and some will never draw(/insert artform here) awesomely no matter how hard they practise.


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Totally disagree. This kind of thinking is what cripples a lot of my 3d students. I'm not sure where in society it comes from, but I'd like to start a one-man mission to stamp it out!

You can do ANYTHING you want. All you have to do is practice and be willing to learn.

EVERYONE CAN LEARN TO DRAW!!

I honestly seriously believe that. And I've taught people how to draw before (and model in 3d and paint textures and animate) so I have a real reason to believe it.

I see stuff like this on these boards all the time. Am I the only one bothered by it?

Honestly, what the heck kind of compliment is this supposed to be? And where does this attitude even come from? Do people think that "talent" is some kind of elusive thing that is bestowed upon the chosen ones? Don't people realize that anyone can learn to draw? The reason that the best people on this board are the best is that they WORK at it. So it's like you're insulting their hard work.

Take one of my favorites, Jomaro Kindred. Now, I've been drawing a long time, have a degree in it, etc. But I don't think my super hero drawings are as good as Jomaro's. Why? Because the drawing gods have smiled upon him and not to me? NO! Because he DRAWS MORE THAN I DO. He has more patience with his artwork than I do. I pick at a drawing for a half hour and then move on to a 3d model and then I try to level my Mind/Psy Dom and then I watch Spongebob with my kids and then I might come back and pick at my drawing for another half hour. While I was doing all this, Jomaro was DRAWING. I try to tell this to my students all the time: being successful is mostly about how much you work. "Talent" accounts for a very small portion of your results and has more to do with how quickly you get better. It doesn't affect your "upper cap" as it were.

So let's cut the crap with the "You have talent. I hate you." stuff. If you REALLY want to draw, go get some pencils and paper, do a Google search for "drawing tutorials," go to the bookstore and get some books that look like they'll teach you what you want to know, and GET DRAWING!!! If you don't want to devote the kind of time that Jomaro and Doug Shuler and others devote to it, then just accept that you're not going to be as good as they are and stop hating on them for their hard work.

Seriously, what do others think about this? Am I overreacting?

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*sigh* If only you worked cheaper and I had extra cash...

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IMO Jomaro already undercuts himself with his prices. His work is a tremendous bargain given the quality.

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Yeah, I think you guys are right. If I'm going to go sans lines, my shading should be more defined.

here is a slight improvement.

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Definitely moving in the right direction! It's much less flat than the last one.

Since it's going more towards a painted look, I'd like to suggest that you think about getting bolder with your color choices. Right now it still has a very monochromatic feel, where you have a darker version of the same color in the shadows and a lighter version in the highlights. Try to blend some more colors into the shadows and highlights. A kind of "no-brainer" way to do this is to make your shadows go towards cool colors (say, purples) and highlights go towards warms (yellows). You don't have to go nuts...the colors can just be inching towards these hues and still make a dramatic impact on the piece. I'd especially look at the skin tones for this. Skin is fairly reflective and is most likely to pick up colors from the surroundings.

Yeah, you don't necessarily have to ink it, per se, but if you're not, you need to pay more attention to your edges. Like, where his right arm is overlapping his torso. In an inked drawing, you'd just use a thicker line there. With a more painted piece, you need to harden that edge, and find different colors to make the arm stand out from the body.

A pretty great looking beginning, though.

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PMD,

My son does alot of his own drawings. This was an outlet for him to see where his imagination can lead. He is more excited now thanks to this turnout then I could have hoped for.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

Static

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Whew!!

Okay, GOOD!

Forget I said anything, then!

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I hate to be the wet blanket here, because the work/outpouring of love IS pretty awesome, but why isn't your son doing these drawings himself?

8 is a great age to learn how to draw. This board is filled with people who seemed to have convinced themselves at very early ages that they "can't draw." Everyone can draw. The main difference between people who "can draw" and those who "can't" is generally that the former group started early and the latter group decided that they couldn't. If your son is this interested in comics that he's writing this whole story, I would hate for him to be regretting at 25 that he can't get his ideas out of his head by himself. The people on here that want to draw in their 20s but have never really tried make me kind of sad, because it's an uphill battle for them at this point. Please encourage your son to start early, and remind him that art, like any skill, is 90% practice. Please? Humor the art teacher, would ya?
(/soapbox off)

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I don't know if you can call me a pro, but i can give you some tips.

Don't use "How to Draw" books (i never did anyway), they don't help IMHO. Just go out to a comic shop and look through some of the books, look for one (or a few) with some poses and a style you might like (perhaps your favorite artist) and take them home (pay for them, of course!) and trace the poses, faces, whatever you'd like to get better at creating. Sort of give yourself "lessons."

After you've traced a few and got a feel for the anatomy and such, try doing some work of your own. Use the books as referance material if you need to.


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Comic books don't make great reference material. Not every comic book artist has a great grasp of anatomy. Also, comics are, by definition, abstracted from reality. You shouldn't let someone else determine your level/style of abstraction, you should do it yourself.

Use anatomy books. Also, Burne Hogarth's books, especially Dynamic Figure Drawing, are excellent. They'll help you learn how to break the shapes down on your own.

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All it would take would be a little cryptic dialogue .. give people a hint, along the lines of:

"I'm losing territory hand over fist here. You put a stop to that, I might have something for you ..." then put something in their description about their war with {insert villain type}.



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It's already there, to one degree or another.

I first found out about unlockable contacts when I stumbled upon this guy in Sharkhead. He told me that I had to prove to him that I hated the Scrapyarders if I wanted to work with him. So I went out and killed a bunch of Scrapyarders, got the badge, went back to him, and he gave me missions. No spoiler site, no hints, just finding the guy, reading his text, and unlocking him.

Incidentally, this was one of my favorite experiences with CoV when it first came out. The feeling of discovery was immensely satisfying.

I realize that not all of them are this clear, but it's working in some cases.

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But all in all the system was originally meant to aalow a player to go back and complete content they missed.

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Sadly Stateman keeps saying "he doesn't like the idea of flashback"

If he could give us one solid reason, I would be OK with it, but it is like he is saying we are not even worth responding to.

You'd think I would be used to it by now.......

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The reason is that they don't want all the content available to every toon. Every player, yes. Every toon, no. They clearly want us to roll alts and have a unique experience with each alt. You can see this attitude in almost everything done in this game.

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But this not the case with, to my mind, the current badge situation. What we have here is a problem whereby an activity - that I am almost *sure* is designed to take advantage of a certain anal-retentive (here's hoping the censor didn't just eat that) mindset - actively works against the very people it is aimed at. And it seems like a very small degree of effort need be expended to resolve this problem.

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I don't agree with that. I don't think completist badge collectors are the only ones who appreciate badges. I love badge collecting. But Im not one of those collectors who feels that I must have EVERYTHING to make collecting worthwhile. I'm not a completist, and you're automatically equating "collector" with "completist." I used the Veruca comparison because Veruca just wanted. She had no reason for wanting, she just WANTED. I won't go into a long diatribe about why I have such problems with the completist attitude, but, in short, I think it's a damaging mindset that should never be encouraged. And, yes, "I WANT" and "I deserve" sound almost the same to me.

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What I see - again, coloured by own experiences - is a problem where, at present, there is a group of first-class heroes, and a group of second-class heroes. And for an utterly arbitrary reason - the creation date - one group of heroes may NEVER attain something the other group has.

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But what about the subsequent badges that have been limited time? My main technically could have had Isolator (had I know about it) but never could've gotten the first Halloween Badge. But that's part of the idea of creating a unique experience...no two toons wil have the same things available to them. I LIKE this approach. I think it's good that very few toons will be able to have all the badges. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of badge collecting at all.

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And really... Varuca Salt?

That's a bit harsh, isn't it?

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It's honestly the attitude I hear from most of the people in this thread. "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!"

There's no other real reason why the devs should put this in. Some people think they are entitled to ALL the content in the game, and think they're being ripped off if they don't have access to it all. I disagree with you that this is a reasonable position. I think it's very unreasonable and unrealistic. This is an MMO...the devs are attempting to give us an ever-changing ever-expanding world to play in. As such, there is NO WAY that all the content would or should be available to every single toon. Toon and player are different. Isolator is available to every PLAYER: go roll an alt and get it. But to expect any one toon to get all the content is unreasonable. The devs are all but telling us this, and it's central to their concept of the game. Look at the evidence: They have limited edition badges. There are a wide variety of Archetypes. The character creation is the best part of the game. There is virtually no post-50 content. What does it add up to? THE DEVS WANT YOU TO ROLL ALTS! They don't want you to be able to do every bit of content with one character. The game is set up so that you experience all the content across MANY characters.

Giving Isolator to pre-i2 toons isn't going to happen unless the Devs fundamentally change their ideas about how this game is to be played and enjoyed.

The badge collectors can say over and over again how important having every badge is to them til they're blue in the face. This doesn't change the fact that the devs have made it pretty clear with the limited-time event badges that they don't care. They LIKE the fact that it's nearly impossible for anyone to get every badge, otherwise they wouldn't keep offering these special edition badges. The fact that some toons can't have them is the very thing that makes them special. So all you Veruca Salts are just going to have to deal with the fact that you can't have everything you want.

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And this guy was made an npc in CoV why?

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Because the joke is still brilliantly funny, regardless of whether the player behind it is a jerk.

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Well, the joke itself is pretty racist. Well, unless you believe that any part of it was unstaged. Or are we to believe that it's a coincidence that the "stupid" guy in the video was stereotypically black, what with "Leeroy" being his first name and "At least I have chicken."