Talionis

I like the idea of the Defensive self buff numbers being higher for this set. I think it makes sense. Much like the control powers in the buff debuff sets being stronger for Controlers than Defenders.

I also agree at least some Mez protection is needed for the archetype and I'm ok with the Devs putting it where they see fit.

Maybe having them operate more like SoA's would be doable. At this point they aren't going to do a separate one for CoH and CoV. So you could be very outside the box with the new set.

What do you guys think?

I have long wanted a Melee Defender. Thinking something like a D&D Paladin or Marshall.

I've tried to twist everything around to make one and they always seem underpowered and hard to play. After think about it, I think this is the type of Archetype that could be created fairly easily because the powers would be easy to port over from other powersets. It would grant a combination that is currently missing from the game.

My first guess would be something akin to the Dominator Assault Secondaries with 4 Defense Powers and 5 attack powers. I'd be fine with as little as 2 Defensive powers in the secondary. I think they would need at least the smashing lethal shield and some form of mez protection.

Sample Secondary:

Shadow Punch
Dark Embrace
Shadow Maul
Murky Cloud
Siphon Life
Obsidian Shield
Cloak of Darkness
Soul Drain
Midnight Grasp

See we are learning. I always thought it would be nice to pre-debuff before the fight with Flash Arrow then a Glue Arrow patch that would bunch them up better as they come toward me. But I can see if you are reapplying that a non mob targeted arrow would slow down chains.

Trick shooter says that the Devs may give it some attention in the next 6 months to year. They had pm'd him that love was on the way, just not super quick.

I guess no one plays Trick Arrow or people believe it to be balanced. I really do think that the lack of buffs should really require Trick Arrow to be one of the better de-buffing sets in order for Defenders and Corrupters to pull their weight on teams.

Another issue that Trick Arrow has is that it not only requires multiple powers to do what other powers do in a single application, many of it's powers require multiple applications to keep the de-buffs at an adequate level and duration. Meaning that you have to stop attacking in order to reapply your de-buff which can be further aggrovated by redraw.

The control powers seem too weak to really keep you alive especially versus more difficult content, especially for non-controllers.

I have seen a lot of good options for improvements to Trick Arrow. I really like the idea of disruption arrow creating a taunting pet that can be destroyed, but can last long enough to apply a de-buff and distract spawns alpha strike. The power looks like it could actually work this way already. It's not my original idea, but I think it's a good one, that I would like to champion.

But that one change alone isn't enough. I would like to know what others think.

Let me just start here, anything in this thread can be balanced. Many pool powers aren't worth much in game anyway, but they are still there (Jump Kick level attacks just aren't good). So if the damage is pretty low and the activation time is high, they will not be more attractive than blaster set attacks.

We already have the Mace Epic pools that use a "weapon". So the animations can be done and worked out. The technology is there and it works.

But I think with some creativity these could be welcome additions to Power Pools. If some of the ideas are more "Epic" then so be it. But this is the type of thing that CoH can charge for adding to peoples options and it would affect every toon in the game. From that standpoint it would be an excellent business option for them to pursue as well.

Love this idea. I've never liked the temporary powers, especially if they were supposed to be permanent powers for theme of my toon.

Trickshooter has done a great job of showing that Trick Arrow could use some improvements in his thread here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=279734

I feel like it deserves some discussion here.

Trick Arrow does not have any buffs. I'm more than ok with this fact, but I don't feel like Trick Arrow was correctly balanced with the comparable powersets in the Defender Primaries etc. Trick Arrow is not even the best Defender Primary at Debuffing. Trick Arrow often has to use two powers to get as much debuff as other powersets get from just one power. And even here some of the powers have very small areas of effect (I'm looking at you Acid Arrow). Also as we have started to look at end game content and mechanics, Debuffs are just less effective than Buffs at helping to get through content quickly and safely. Thus, a set without Buffs really needs to very good at Debuffing in order to carry its weight.

Trick Arrow does have a lot of control. The problem is they don't work very well, especially if you aren't a controller. There are good ones, EMP Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow, but they have very long recharges that are very hard to get up every spawn. The single targets are weak, especially if you aren't a controller. Controllers get slightly stronger control powers and can also stack their effects with their primary control powers. All that makes Trick Arrow an excellent controller secondary, but the controls really just don't cut it for the other Archetypes.

Worst of all, Trick Arrow has a very hard time mitigating the Alpha Strike when the spawns use their best powers initially in combat. Most sets have some ability to make these less effective, but Flash Arrow alone just doesn't do enough to help surviablilty.

REMEDIES/SUGGESTIONS

• Disruption Arrow -- Make this Disruption Arrow create a pet which can be attacked. Have the pet emit a sonic attack that does very low damage, but has a high taunt and - To Hit (as well as keeping its significant -resistances). Disruption Arrow would serve as an debuffing Force Field Generator. This would eat the Alpha Strike. Allow the - Restance Debuff to last for 15 seconds or so after the pet dies. Increase the number of targets this arrow can affect. The endurance cost of this power was already obscenely high with these additions it would make the endurance cost make more sense.
  
  
• Glue Arrow -- Make Glue Arrow able to target a location instead of a creature. Have the Area of Effect grant a chance to Immobilize. This would allow Archers to have a greater ability to keep his opponents at range. This would also allow for some limited stacking with Entangling Arrow. Thematically, that would be important to Archers and they would try to go a long way to keep opponents at distance.
  
  
• Ice Arrow -- Make Ice Arrow have an additional strong - Regeneration effect and possibly even more - resistance debuffing. Granting some worthwhile debuff to this hold would give additional reason for non-controllers to make use of this power. Cold would make things grow slower and at high levels would make things brittle, so thematically this could make good sense. This is nice because it only affects a single target.
  
  
• Acid Arrow -- Increase the size of the Area of Effect or increase the potency of the small amount of mobs affected.
  
  
• Alternate Animations -- Possibly have alternate animations that use Assault Rifle and Dual Pistols. This would allow for more customization, but also would allow for no redraw between sets. This wouldn't have to be done at the same time as the numbers and powers were rebalanced. I just thought it might be an interesting idea.

I'm not married to any of these changes. I like the idea of most of Trickshooter's changes as well. I would just put this out there as a thread to collect different ideas and suggestions and to possibly refine suggestions to make them as good as possible.

Have to agree there should be a Scythe added to Titan Weapon. I also think if it will look ok, put a Scythe into Staff Fighting as well. Just as Swords are used in Titan Weapons, Fire Melee, Dual Blades, Broad Sword, etc. A scythe doesn't need to be limited to just one powerset.

A well played Dark/Dark (D3) probably would also qualify as being close to Tanking.

While the D3 is impressive, but Aggro taunted on a Tank will never hit an opponent and is more absolute a defense for the Team than the Dark - to Hit.

Tanks are not perfect at what they do. I don't think any tank would say they are.

That said, Tanks are not easy to play and better Tank players are much better at grouping mobs and should be doing more than just Taunting.

I will say this, there is nothing wrong with Touch of Fear.

1. For a build not at the Defensive soft cap, it can make the difference of making a foe unable to hit you.
2. In a set mostly of mostly single target attacks, the Fear can serve as a virtual hold on one target. Dominators alternate targets trying to do much the same thing. Even if it doesn't fully hold, the fear will act as a slow power.

Touch of Fear is a control power. If you have no need of the added control because you have configured your build, good for you, you have openned up a Power Choice. Its not a required power. But not everyone has that many IO's. And Touch of Fear is a strong To Hit Debuff and Fear is a decent mitigation tool.

On my Fire/Kin, I rarely use Char. I just don't need it. But that doesn't mean Char is a bad power. It would be just fine if I needed a single target hold.

So, just because you don't use Touch of Fear doesn't mean its not good for someone else. And a lot of people have found uses for Touch of Fear.

I'm curious what other characters can really tank? No archetype is supposed to irreplaceable, but Tanks do a great job of well tanking... what else can?

By tanking I mean:

Pulling large amounts of toons, to one tight location, and then hold them there so the Area of Effects can unless heck. And live to see another day against the toughest mobs?

I'm betting we'll see some TankerMind builds that are pretty good at the job. What else would surprise us?