SuperOz

Cap,

From an IC and RP point of view, my character was devastated and I expect my SG to feel the same way, don't get me wrong.

But as a player? No. Not at all. Not even a little bit. Every attempt to invest the player in the events are stripped away from you courtesy of being reduced to the point of view of becoming a bystander and watching the world's most experienced and powerful hero walk into a trap like a grade-A level 1 hero.

And any claim the Devs can make about this being a True Death hold so long as there's any support in the direction they're going with. And so far I can't see that being much more than divisive.


S.

I just wanted to peer in here and say that I deeply appreciate and support everyone that's posted their support for Statesman, even if the game has killed him off (for however long that lasts in comic book terms).

For a long while, I've felt like CoH has been in the grim and gritty 90's where shock deaths and replacements were the norm. I miss the guiding lights and the decisions made that say 'we're better than this' and that are self-sacrificing and well....heroic.

Maybe, just maybe, the Statesman haters can finally be sated of their hate (who can say though?) and we can start to find our own Brightest Day, seeing as after all this what this is all about.... *wry smile*

I know at least my SG will be holding a memorial service on the appropriate time.



S.

The problem Eldritch Knight is that he was, or else Mr. Wade would be a smoking pile of ashes on the ground.

He intends to arrest him. He doesn't kill. He's thinking pretty calmly there, however stupidly.


S.

I had a friend go through this with me on the team but not entering as per my promise to myself about this event, and all was described and I could hear parts of it (we'd worked this out already).

I'll say it now.

It was not emotional.

It was not moving.

It was trying to and failing at manipulating the emotions of the player (who not only gets to watch this happen but is also apparently incapable of doing anything at all to stop it; I don't care if you're going to kill him, but for pity's sake at least make a modicum of effort to make the players more than bystanders and that their efforts are fruitless).

Statesman isn't angry; he's going to lock Wade up. However, he just waltzes into an incredibly basic trap (what was the point of the glowy machines described to me in the second part if they didn't do anything?) and takes it as my friend and I joked about as well as Darth Maul saying 'look at me, I'm a standing target, cut me in half'.

It's that rudimentary and that lacking in credibility.

I fully expect the fallout to be pedantic ranting by those who want revenge, half-thought out plans by heroes and a deus ex machina to resolve the plot rather than anything we players are doing, because we've frankly achieved squat over the last four chapters.

I didn't even play this and I can drive trucks through the plotholes. But with the 'beat you over the head' promotion of this, the earnest assurances you would be moved and the continued denial of any seeming victory, I'm left not really caring at all about the conclusion of this story now.

There wasn't even a badge.

The big game that launched last month that I'm sure this event in part was meant to distract us from does it better, has way more emotional impact and involves you. I strongly suggest Paragon Studios studies and learns.


S.

P.S. I don't know who is writing this, but stop using Geoff Johns as your role model. The horrible mashing of Silver Age ideals and graphic violence turned me off with the Superboy-Prime fiasco, and this story is following suit.

Eva,

I think a large part of the problem then becomes 'what now?' for villains after that point. Statesman is the signature hero of the game. There is no cosmic-level equivalent that villains can aspire to take down, and having an antagonist for a villain to keep trying to take down is a necessary staple of drama, let alone superhero stories.

I do feel there's a genuine morbidity (like people, even myself, have when we see a car accident) to proceedings, and I agree with Melancton in that the Phalanx particularly is being ripped apart not so much by their actions but by how they're being written. But that's a seperate issue.

Honestly, I can appreciate a desire to do something new after ten years on the behalf of the Devs; there's a lot of these characters that are their own personal ones and they may well feel ready to move on. In some ways, I think what we're witnessing is CoH's own Crisis on Infinite Earths, based on what I'm hearing about Dark Astoria. Everything and everyone is escalating and I don't think it can be resolved through diplomacy.

That being said, DC's original killing off of Supergirl was moving, heroic and genuinely surprising. This just seems like a wake gone wrong.



S.

This thought occurred to me just the other day when the announce date was confirmed, and after all the hype the community team have given it, all the 'yay, Statesman's dying, he's (insert your derogatory thought or comment here)' posts on the forums and even the promotional imagery.

I'm not going to be in a rush to see Statesman die.


Funny, even as I typed that it seems a bit morbid, because that's what effectively we're doing, even for a fictional character. I know, it's the same morbidity that drove sales for Death of Superman or the new Batman in the 1990's, but I'm increasingly finding that it's not something I find myself attracted to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not squeamish or perturbed by death in comics; I've probably experienced a bit more real-world death on a personal level than most people I know in the last six years especially, but that's neither here nor there.

I haven't felt comfortable or felt the decision to 'kill off' Statesman was a good one for a while. I also think the various posters who deride Statesman for being a Marty Stu or a reminder of Mr. Emmert or a four-color hero (I could go on and on, but honestly nowhere near the level of some posters) also bother me a bit because I feel like the complaints may well continue on beyond the event, or the event may not be to their satisfaction, and I find that a bit morbid also.

I admit as I type this I have trouble putting my finger on just what it is; maybe it's that I know this character is dying, that I can't do anything about it and that there are some expectations as to how I should feel when it happens.

That it's not something natural and is a genuine reaction on my part.

I've been playing another game, set somewhere far, far away, and even if the stories there are similarly linear, I at least feel I have a choice in my decisions, a choice to react and think about how I feel about them. I think I would at least like a chance to save Statesman, but I know that it won't matter, and that's almost like salt in the wound in some ways.

And maybe that's the heart of it; I'm being asked to care....no. I feel like I'm being told I should. And I actually like Statesman, I've said as such. But this feels....hollow, somehow.

Am I alone in this? Is anyone else just left feeling....not much at all?




S.

This, I think, is a question that's going to be raised time and again regarding any character who is seen as one of the following:

Old school 'four color' hero

A patriotically-themed and idealist

A 'Mary Sue' who can apparently do everything and anything others can't

Apparently arrogant and with no redeeming features


The first thing I'd do to write the character is that I would expressly make a disclaimer that Statesman, Marcus Cole, is not in any way representative in personality, demeanor and general character that of Jack Emmert. This is a dead weight hung (and I would argue unfairly) upon the character by a figure that by the measure of the meta-story of the game and its canon does not exist in the universe. I can appreciate there is a great deal of negative feeling towards Mr. Emmert, but he is not Marcus Cole and he is not Statesman the fictional character. This is an utterly necessary seperation of real person and character that needs to happen in my opinion before anything else.

Perhaps some people are bitter and unwilling to let go of their resentment of Mr. Emmert and project that onto Statesman. And that's fine, I'm not going to insist that they do, nor would I as a writer insist that they 'like Statesman because I say so'. But to write a disclaimer and to simply air and acknowledge that grievance I think is critical.

So, to the character himself: a lot of patriotically-themed heroes aren't popular in a world of 2012 where morality is measured in shades of grey and nationality can be as much a rallying point of fanatacism as it can be nationalism...and sometimes they can be one in the same. So the first step would be to address just who Marcus Cole is. A man seeking to avoid a horrible death by mustard gas poisoning. Is he a coward, seeking to cheat death? Is he power-hungry? If we go by the other Marcus Coles, perhaps...but when he does gain the power, he voluntarily focuses his abilities to the service of others. No other Marcus Cole that we know of has done that, so we can mark this as a point in his favor.

Marcus Cole is a patriot and a fair-minded man. He's not stepping in to voice his opinion about politics or anything else until the 1970's, when he declares the Phalanx above world politics. This is forty years after his debut as a superhero. That's remarkable restraint, but it also speaks of frustration after seeing a world war, the threat of nuclear war and yet humanity seems incapable of learning from sending itself to the brink of extinction.

Combine this with his 'natural' attributes of being the Avatar of Zeus (who was indeed a haughty, arrogant and often self-serving god) and you have a wonderful conflict between Marcus Cole the man and Marcus Cole the Avatar of Zeus. I would write him as someone who has been pushed a lot more towards being the Avatar after the death of his wife (and I have written so in my own AE arc) because one of his key anchors to being truly empathic to humanity has died. I don't think that can be stressed enough. It also plays against the Mary Sue a lot; he can do a lot of things, but the one thing he would want to do more than anything, save his wife from death, he could not do. I can only think that would eat at him even now.

Statesman as I would write him would be the 'wary god'. Not only has he lived the heights of being a great figure, he's also seen the downsides. Not only embodied in Stephan Richter, but the borderline actions of his own granddaughter, Manticore, and even himself when the Avatar tries to manifest itself fully.

Whilst I wouldn't write him as being the first hero you'd meet in the game, I would write him at the end of the initial Atlas Park arc to thank the hero personally. He's had his hands massively full having driven back Recluse and trying to stabilise Galaxy City. Someone had to step into that breach, and it was the player character. If anyone is going to know the trials and tribulations that lie ahead, it's going to be him. I'd give him some mentoring lines, a reassuring word. I think something like:

'I'll let you in on a little secret: when I first started out, I was making it up as I went too. Trust in yourself, trust in the heroes around you. I do.'

That element of Zeus we often neglect, the caring father of his children, I think applies here. I think Statesman (even though it's not said) thinks of all the heroes are 'his' children. He is almost literally the wellspring from which they flow. And he wants to see his 'children' do well.

I often draw the parallel between Statesman and the British character Doctor Who, because they share a tremendous number of character traits, up to and including being a godlike figure who is as equally feared and reviled as he is admired. The irony is never lost on me when the Doctor is referred to as 'The Coming Storm'...he can be capricous, dangerous, devious, enigmatic, wonderous, magical, loveable, worshipped, and even deified.

But I bet both characters would tell you they fall far short of being any of those things.

There's a great passage in one of the shows that I think is as much Statesman as anything I've heard (paraphrasing mine):

'I've seen him; he's like fire and ice and rage.

He's like the night and the heart of the storm in the sun.

He's ancient and forever. He burns at the center of time and can see the turn of the universe.

And...he's wonderful.

He has saved your lives so many times and you never even knew he was there.

He never stops; he never stays.

He never asks to be thanked.

But I've seen him.

I know him.

I love him.

His name....is Statesman.'

I hope what I've written here in my ramblings is how I'd write Statesman. Because of what I did write, that Statesman, my Statesman is in my head and I would give my right arm to put him in a medium where I could show everyone my vision of him. Maybe I still will.



S.

[QUOTE=Stormbird;4056305]Why would that be?

Imagine, if you would... oh, a "World War MMO." We get a run through WWI. After a run of several years, we get peace - the MMO goes free for those that want to keep messing with it, but the sequel comes out. Many years have passed, there have been changes in the world due to the way the first one ended... now we have the second WWMMO.

Honestly, I think it'd work for COH, too.

*Spoiler warning for anyone who hasn't gone through that much of the game *






I mean, there are several storylines that are just coasting as "finished" right now, and another that is being worked on that, once it's done - don't you think the world would have a breather?

After all, superpowered beings seem to wax and wane in the COH world. Nemesis has tried uploading himself to the Rikti mental network - and failed. The Rikti have to sort out things at home - something our supers would likely not be welcome to - and those that stay on Earth and want peace would need time to integrate. Arachnos... well, that whole storyline just sort of stops when you hand Recluse his head. Not that it really had a continuing, evolving direction.

Once the Coming Storm is finished... then what? It'd be fairly sensible to have a breather in there. The world's shaken up, the political structure and alliances get reworked (in order for 2.0 to have a "worldwide" focus) and things pick up again a few decades afterward ("Ten minutes into the future.")

Man, you would not believe what the kids got up to while you were out....



S.

I will miss Statesman terribly, and I feel I've understood him for a long time. I've seen the parallels to another long-lived character of great power, someone who could be considered a god.

His name is the Doctor. Nearly a thousand years old, responsible for the death of his race, his family, everyone he ever loved. I'm not going to say anymore than that, because I have these Youtube clips that say it far better than I ever, ever could.

Look at these and tell me you can't hear Statesman in there. And all I want to do is tell him it's okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=uz_1HQY32LA


These are his words, surely?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEwKN...yer_detailpage


This scene says to me all that I can think of about how he feels losing someone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij_LP...yer_detailpage


And this little music video sums him up, I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=IUld2qcyNpw


Try standing in those shoes for a while and see if you think he's someone you can hate. I don't.



S.

Wonderful gorgeous scene and a homage all the way back to Flynn's climactic Robin Hood fight with Basil Rathbone up the staircase.

If we had it, /swordsalute to you, sir. May Errol be waiting for you with a quick smile and a cold ale.


S.

Heh, I remember studying this in my university causes. Believe it or not, Common Sense(tm) is considered a special skill assigned to the hero characters in these movies (ie the ones who live to the end and actually use their brains). Special talents are generally specifically written for the character who has exactly the right skillset, personality and level-headedness to deal with the scenario at hand.

Perfect examples of this are Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movies, virtually any 80's action movie (Rambo, et al) where the character is 'the best trained in x,y,z situations', and the survivors of disaster movies. These movie universes are littered with whole populations of ridiculously stupid people (on purpose) so that the 'special skill' of Common Sense can save the day.

This has started to be done away with, mind you. The zenith of this occurs in 2012 where John Cusack essentially has the Lucky special skill instead of Common Sense, as he careers from set piece to set piece, 'luckily' meeting talking heads that send him to the next CGI spectacular.

But never ever expect disaster/apocalypse films to be populated by regular people. Only the principal cast matters; the rest are collateral.


S.