Steampunkette

Absolutely untrue. Washington would NOT kill you for being a Resistance spy. Because you freaking aren't a Resistance spy when your action is arresting the Resistance Spy and taking her to trial.

And while Cleopatra might be tempted to send Marauder after you (if he does, in fact, get her off on charges) it would be even more suspicious on her part. And she's already under scrutiny.

It's far more likely that both groups would resent your interference and lack of commitment. You'd probably wind up being booted from both factions, more or less. Keeping you from entering the Power arc or Crusader arc.

From a storyline standpoint a third option is always applicable. You just have to write it well.

-Rachel-

A string of good luck can lift the middle finger at probability. A string of bad luck can do the same. You can guess that it will average out over time, but just as often as not; it won't. Averaging is all well and good, but I generally err on the low-side of the variable. So where you might have 25% I'd likely as not use 10-18%. Especially considering that Scourge only kicks in on attacks below 50% HP of the enemy, and only reliably does so when the target is at about 25% or less. Which generally results in a "One more hit" situation, whether Scourge kicks in or not.

Personally, I find Scourge useless.

Meanwhile you can Crit as a scrapper on a target at 100%, so it's quite a bit more reliable and useful.

-Rachel-

I'd move the Immob and End Drain resistance over, personally, and then add in the +HP component...

just seems right to have "Grounded" be the one that protects you from KB, rather than a wall of Static. though the static wall could scramble energy draining attacks by being diffuse...

-Rachel-

... I love this idea. I really really really love this idea.

-Rachel-

As an absolute damage modifier? Yes.

As a spike increase to overall damage output expressed as a variable? No.

-Rachel-

But scourge isn't a set amount. It's a chance to maybe do damage if the target is below a specific point. You can't say it's 25% more because there's no guarantee it will proc on a given blast until the enemy is at 1% health, and at that point Scourge is useless.

-Rachel-

Actually, It's mostly me being upset that there are no other choices.

I realize it's a limitation of the medium, but it should be possible to choose something between "Terrible Horror" and "Horrible Horror" as a third option. A more "Moderate" choice where you can choose to disable the plant, maybe spike the batch of mind-control drug with a chemical bonder which inhibits it's abilities and also increases the resistance against that chemical for all who consume it...

Or killing neither Cleopatra or Washington, but arresting her even at the cost of subduing him to take her before the courts for her crimes, regardless of the risks.

Or the option to sabotage the Seer network and -still- arrest Yin for his various crimes against the people of Praetoria.

A number of "Moderate" Morality choices would make Praetoria a more pleasant place to play, I think. There are no true "Heroes" in Praetoria. The Responsible Loyalists commit just as many infractions as the Wardens, they just affect a different number of people with their actions.

-Rachel-

Shockingly... They do not.

Defenders do .65 base with a 30% increase bringing them to the rough equivalent of .845 compared to a Corruptor's .75

This means a solo Defender outdamages a Corruptor's base damage. Though a Corruptor's Damage bonus can be 100% higher (at the cap) than a Defender's, putting them back in the lead.

-Rachel-

Wardens support the Crusaders in the same way Responsible Loyalists support Cole. Through tacit acceptance of what they're doing and only going against their most heinous acts (bombing hospitals, invading another dimension) when the person in question personally feels their allies have gone too far.

The Wardens are the spies who supply the Crusaders with their information. Not the PC Wardens, mind you. But the NPC Wardens who gather intel and spread it to the populace in some cases and share it with the Resistance in others. They are empowering the Crusaders to do the horrible things they do.

Just like the NPC Responsible Loyalists empower the corrupt members of the regime to commit horrible atrocities, even if they don't intend to.

This generally bleeds into the characters. You say your Warden helped Cleopatra stop a bombing? Did you then Kill Cleopatra after she helped you and then tried to kill you, or did you murder an honest cop who caught her in a lie?

If you run the Warden arc as a Warden and choose Resistance, every time, you let a drug-addled mass murderer go free, because he was on drugs. You wind up bombing a water treatment facility to take out a bottling company for drugged drinks. You do things that most people with some respect for their fellow men wouldn't do. Releasing a Killer who flung cars at college co-eds and killed them? Really? BOMBING the Enriche plant, rather than disabling it in a more time-consuming manner which doesn't require thousands to be exposed to illness and death?

It's pretty similar if you play a Resistance character running the Loyalist Responsible arcs who chooses the Resistance option, every time. You murder a cop who did nothing wrong and let a spy who tried to kill you off the hook, You let a criminal go free because you empathize with his need to see his daughter even though he's part of a massive criminal organization, and in the EEnd of it all, you start a massive Praetoria-wide Riot knowing that hundreds of people will doubtlessly be killed. Potentially thousands. Especially when the Praetoria Police and the Powers Division crack down on the Rioting.

It's like you go out of your way to ensure bad people are released and good people die in droves.

The difference between the Responsible Loyalist and the Warden; The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the Few.

A Warden is willing to let hundreds of people die to save the one they -know- is a good person. The Responsible Loyalist is willing to let one good person die to save hundreds of other people. These two mindsets can never accept each other, and for one the other will always be the epitome of evil.

Personally? I'd be willing to die to keep a dozen other people alive, or would let one person die to keep a dozen alive. But that's just me. If I have the choice between saving one and saving dozens or hundreds or thousands... I'll have to save the group.

-Rachel-

Ideological Imperialism. It's actually fairly common. Usually among democracies and religions. "Follow my Rules or you are evil! Do as I say, not as I do! Everyone must adhere to -my- guidelines and morality and people who don't are heathens/morons/terrorists/etc!"

There are some things that Democracy did and does very well, and some things that Democracy did and does very badly.

-Rachel-

Paragon City is in the "Modern Age" of comics, not the Silver Age. There are some Silver age elements, Golden Age elements, and Iron Age elements of gritty realism.

Black and White isn't the rule, otherwise Vigilante and Rogue alignments wouldn't exist. Your argument is, as usual, invalid.

So all the evils you commit based on -your- choices and -your- motivations are -his- fault? He didn't bring Civil War, he brought peace and prosperity. People who were under the yoke and couldn't take the weight chose civil war and murder, not Cole.

Again, you're blaming the cop because the criminal shot through a window and killed some girl when the criminal was shooting at the cop. the Resistance decided to take those actions, they can say "It's not my Fault!" but the girl is still dead, and you've got the gun that killed her.

-Rachel-

I think by the Silver Age the black and white morality was kind of teetering on the edge of oblivion. Spider Man and Marvel comics, in general, mark the Silver Age start for me, and having a main character who is fallible and makes the wrong choice sometimes is the hallmark of the Silver Age.

The Golden Age heroes of DC are the ones I think of when I think of the "Black and White" morality. The bad guy was always moustache-twirling and the good guys all wore primary colors.

-Rachel-

So murdering the civilians who work in the city he built is the right answer?

Kill him. Kill his Praetors. Then get killed by the loyalist "Cole Lovers" who are drugged and brainwashed as a martyr, knowing what you've done is right.

A day of mourning every year and a democracy already in place can be the legacy. But burning down hospitals and empowering psycopaths to murder civilians... That's just wrong.

Do what's right or GTFO and stop claiming to be a hero. You're just as bad as Cole in almost every way, you just like to wrap yourself with an American Flag and pretend it stands for you.

-Rachel-

You mean the Sonic barriers, hospitals, roads, libraries, internet, and basically everything built since the world was more or less destroyed by the Hamidon are all evil?!

Wow you're twisted.

-Rachel-

Well there's that, and the schooling system, hospitals, roads, public works, libraries, the internet, the Magister system which is a democratically elected body and works fine for managing the day to day bureaucratic needs of Praetoria...

But, y'know, all those things need to be axed. We can't possibly just topple the Dictator himself and leave all the good he actually accomplished in place.

Narrow perspective, as I said before. If the Praetors and Cole were taken out, today, the government would just keep running smoothly. Sure there'd be a manhunt for his killer(s) and a national holiday put in place for mourning, but in the end the government would function fine. And democracy could declare the Seer program un-needed.

But people like Golden Cole can't accept compromise. It has to be her way or no way at all. So burn it all down, destroy the nuclear reactor, tear down the sonic walls, and let everyone die... Free.

-Rachel-

*edit* And when Golden Cole pops up and says "The Magisters are all appointed it's corruption corruption corruption evil!" just point her toward this Paragonwiki page which shows there are elected officials in office already, one of whom is a Warden.

But aren't the Resistance and their terrorists looking to exercise the rights to torture, enslave, and murder, too? They're keen to reprogram the clockwork into murder bots, enslave the Seers and turn them into Psychic bombs, and more than willing to torture, kill, and destroy everyone they can in order to "Free" them from their prison.

Wait. Don't bother to answer. You're just going to try and handwave the horror your side is not only WILLING to inflict, but does inflict by level 20 and libel everyone who doesn't adhere to your incredibly narrow perspective on what's going on.

The fact is, both sides create horrors, but individuals achieve great good or greater evil. You cannot see that, because you're unwilling to. And that's pathetic.

-Rachel-

Actually, Responsible Loyalists get the choice to let her go, so it's not faction based, but a mid-mission choice.

-Rachel-

*starts the Slow Clap*

-Rachel-

I agree with this. And am Wholeheartedly in the Law/Chaos camp.

If Loyalist = Evil and Resistance = Good then the Crusaders wouldn't kill innocent civilians in their storyarcs. And Loyalists wouldn't stop serial killers.

It's Law and Chaos, not good and evil. Individual members of each group can be good or evil or neutral.

With that said, I do think Cole and his Praetors have created an, overall, Lawful Evil group. And the Responsible Loyalists are the minority in that group. While Scott and his thugs have created a Chaotic Evil group, with Wardens being the minority on that group.

Shades of Grey on both sides of the equation.

-Rachel-

I get that, I really do. The only way to get duplicity to hit consistently is with yellow inspirations or plenty of accuracy bonuses from sets.

Fortunately, both are abundant!

-Rachel-

In the Crusader arcs you willingly engineer the deaths of innocent civilians. you feed people to Ghouls, rewire robots, and turn psychis into bombs. there is not justification for those acts. they are evil acts committed by evil people with an ostensibly good goal.

If that were an option I'd LEAP on it, as a Responsible Loyalist. Get the people someplace -safe- where they're not threatened by death behind a wall of sound.

Functionally: It would be like living where I live, now, but with a decent job that I work at 3 days a week. I don't make big sweeping gestures or political actions. I don't hang out after a curfew. I don't drive over the speed limit or forget to wear my seat belt... I mostly stay home with my Fiancee and enjoy a bland life punctuated by videogames. The difference would be super-criminals and superheroes fighting it out in the streets. I'd have nothing to fear from the government, since my life is so simple and meaningless in the grander scheme of things.

The only people I'd have to fear in Praetoria would be the Resistance and the Destroyers.

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed. But are they worse than unleashing the Hamidon on people by tearing down the walls or bombing hospitals? Actually, potentially. But a Responsible Loyalist seeks to end at least one of those threats, and probably all of them on returning from Primal Earth.

I don't wave them away, but when people charge an individual with the crimes of a government I find it ludicrous, especially as they distance themselves from their -own- organization's evils.

-Rachel-

You're right. You're absolutely right, Evil Geko. Just like I've said, earlier in this thread, every path is tarnished. But an individual person's ALIGNMENT and their own deeds are their own. I've only pointed to the Warden commitment to the sins of the Crusaders when Golden Cole or others point to the organization the Loyalists support.

If you look at it from that light, both sides are darkly written and support genocide, murder, and carnage.

If you're taking it at an individual level, everyone except Crusaders can still be a good and -Altruistic- person. The Crusaders program death machines to wipe everyone out, and organize the destruction of every person inside two cities, so I can't ever see them as altruistic and good...

But that's the thing. Are you saying the Organization is evil, or each individual in the organization? I'll agree to the first one, but never the second.

-Rachel-

They don't kill Innocent civilians... And they don't enslave anyone, either. They -return- slaves back to their owners, but don't go out and capture any.

One extrajudicial Execution, though that could be played either way, since your choices are execute a spy or murder a cop to join the resistance. Personally I washed my hands of it and let Washington kill her.

As for propping up a madman: They don't do anything of the sort. They stop others from killing innocents, or what are innocents to the best of their personal knowledge.

They don't torture anyone, or aid or abet Genocide... Don't know WHERE you're getting -that- line from.

And while the organization might be Lawful evil, individual members can be Lawful Good.

-Rachel-

What do you consider to be Evil, Golden Cole?

Slavery, Oppression, Murder, Theft, Cruelty... Different members of the government certainly do those things! Of course "Oppression" is pretty much subjective, since some people find the basic rules of a polite society to be oppressive.

They also educate, protect, provide for, and present health care for their people. Jobs are plentiful, but the degrading or menial tasks are performed by automata. Food and drinkable water are provided, clean streets and roads, housing... The list goes on and on and on.

And while individuals might experience the Cruelty or Oppression or Murder or Slavery, most live in a place where all of their needs are provided for them and they're safe. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, don't they? Maybe if the "Few" would stop breaking the laws of the land there wouldn't be any Slavery, Oppression, Cruelty, or Murder...

-Rachel-

*Edit!* It should also be noted that a Member of Arachnos can be a good and upstanding Lawful individual, though the game's writing is -incredibly- limited (as it has to be!) but a little personal re-writing of missions to coincide with your character's goals and voila! You're still accomplishing the same ends, more or less, but doing it for the right reason for your character.

Of course, if you follow the game's text to the T all villains are nothing but henchmen hired on by Recluse, and every level 50 villain who completes the "Recluse" arc is one of Recluse's Lieutenants, so some hand-waving is automatically called for.