Starfox_NA

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When it comes to FF, those differences are very important.

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Understood...

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I'm not in opposition to what you said, I merely spun on and extended on the thoughts you expressed.

And yes, any change to Defender FF will have to work for Mastermind and Controller FF as well.

For example, if we combine Force Bubble and Repulsion Field to create an empty power slot, then fill that with a power giving +damage, that would probably work for Defenders, but we must also consider how it would affect Masterminds and Controllers. For Controllers, it is a power issue, but can probably work as long as it has a decent End cost - power at a cost. For a Mastermind, it basically duplicates and extends on what they already have in Supremacy, so it really shouldn't be a problem - but isn't too exiting either.

But I don't think the discussion here is ready to go into specific power suggestions yet. I think we still need some form of consensus on what the issues are before we are ready to go into specific solutions.

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There _are_differences already in ATs for FF. Controller bubbles are weaker than Defenders, MasterMinds can't get PFF till (I think) level 18, etc. But in all cases I know of the differences basically amount to minor nerfs to the set for all non-Defender ATs.

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When it comes to FF, those differences are very important. A FF Defender taking Maneuvers comes quite close to the magic 45% defense. A Controller doesn't, and a Mastermind falls far short. And those last % matter; going from 45% to 40% defense doubles the damage you take. That's what I meant saying that the numbers for FF are all good; it is the utility of the secondary powers that are lackluster.

I built what is now my main FF Defender to try out the Psychic Blast set; as that is Defender only, I wanted a hands-off primary that could still contribute, but that would let me blast full tilt. And for that FF worked very well. With this toon I came into FF with the decision to skip half the powers. Secondary FF projects, both Defender, Controller, and Mastermind, have felt the set lacking. Buffing minions is just too much work. Combining Dispersion Bubble with control is not a bad idea, especially if you use Hot Feet or Arctic Air, but ultimately Sonic Resonance gives you more options and is less buff-bot-tastic. And making a Defender more focused on the primary, one that tried to use the whole set, became very frustrating. The "lesser" powers of FF are simply not very fun or useful.

From this I found that the best role for a FF is as a buff-bot/blaster Defender. And basically, that's all the set can do for me. Anything else FF can do, someone else can do better. That's the standpoint that I came from when I entered this thread. I want the set developed so that it can do more than one thing. I wanted the secondary choices to be useful and fun.

Now, FF is absolutely not a bad set - particularly not for Defenders. The three great powers are all excellent and can have great impact on any team that invites a defender. What the set is lacking is not power, but utility. There are many situations where we simply do not help or when playing a FF just isn't as much fun as some other role could be. Other players add to this by protesting the use of some of our powers; I guess we have all met Tanks that couldn't work along with Force Bubble.

This is my FF story, and from reading guides and the forums, it seems many share my basic experience of the set. The three great are good, the rest is so-so, and FF is a buff set.

Some of us here on this thread have a much more positive view of the secondary powers of the set, and are thus opposed to almost any type of change at all, only wanting to twiddle the numbers. That will never make the set play better - I say again, the numbers are GREAT. Add in some set bonuses to ranged defense, and you have the archetypal tankblaster the devs so dread. Twiddling with the numbers can only make the set worse. Making FF stand on its own two feet requires changing some powers. The question is which powers and how to change them.

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Issues
* Two-Trick Pony - Knockback and defense is not enough
* Lack of offensive boosting

Powers in Doubt
* Force Bomb - most agree its useless in its current form
* Repulsion Field / Force Bubble - Redundant in effect (I know PhiloticKnight doesn't agree, but most everyone else does)


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Sorry to quote myself, but could we try to focus the discussion a bit? It now seems to be a number of people's crazy dreams, continuously shot down by PhiloticKnight. That is not a discussion, it is a carnie show.

Can we come back to establishing the base lines here; what we need, and what we are willing to have changed to meet those needs? What to change INTO is really a later question.

Steamy Mist does not suppress. Neither does Shadow Fall. Nor Cloak of Darkness in Dark Armor.

In each case, the defense potion is just a few percent, less than Dispersion Bubble.

I must say I like the idea of a damage add, it fits the FF idea much better than -Res, but the issue with that is that you need to add a LOT of damage to compensate even a small -Res modification. This is because the average super has about +100% damage in enhancements and often add +25 more through self-buffs etc. This means that 10% -Res is approximately equal to +25% damage.

-Def is basically worthless in PvE. Except against the very rare high-defense enemies, by the levels we are talking about most toons have 90%+ accuracy already. Certain powers, like Choking Cloud, could benefit from it. But Choking cloud happens to be one of the powers a FF toon will never have.

If we want dev attention to FF, we should do what the Stalkers did; get a consensus on what we want. So far, I sense nothing like that here. Only further discussion can get us there.

To aid in this, I made a list of issues and a list of powers: these are what I think could be a basis of a consensus, bit its by no means a poll or truly representative of anyone but myself.

Issues
* Two-Trick Pony - Knockback and defense is not enough
* Lack of offensive boosting

Powers in Doubt
* Force Bomb - most agree its useless in its current form
* Repulsion Field / Force Bubble - Redundant in effect (I know PhiloticKnight doesn't agree, but most everyone else does)

Is this a good basis for further discussion?

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Changing a single variable is alot easier than stealing code from another power, I can tell you that for sure.

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The problem is all variables are good; the powers that are lacking are lacking in function more than power. Thus, asking for changes that are not to some degree cottages is basically pointless. The task at hand is asking for reasonable, pre-packed cottages that are already available in the company catalog, not outrageous architect-planned condos with three garages and two swimming pools.

Sure, we could ask for a Force Bomb that is the same as it is now, only with a shorter animation. However, I think that would probably be just as difficult to code as a new power effect. This is just a guess, however; I might be terribly misguided in this. My suggestion is for a Force Bomb that could actually be viable with the current animation, but which would need a new power effect - which could be a much smaller/bigger change depending on how things are coded.

It also seems that animation time plays a very small role in the balance calculation for powers, so Force Bomb gains next to nothing from its current horribly long animation, and improving its current abilities (such as by increasing the chance to disorient) won't happen as long as this balancing formula is being used. To save the power, we need to either change its animation time or its function - I aim to change the later.

All we can do is speculate and brainstorm, and possibly try to interest a developer in what we do. I hope I didn't just go all defensive like I asked others too and remained constructive here.

Hey, guys, we are all in the same force bubble here - and its getting cramped. No need to get all defensive.

Lets just agree to disagree on some things, ok?

Continuing on the placible Force Bomb idea; I think this is pretty realistic. It allows the devs to keep the basic animation, and most of the effect can be stolen from Bonfire.

Naturally, unlike fire it wouldn't do damage, but it could have a -Def or -Res component. That would make it similar to Liquify, Sonic Resonance's final power only with knockback instead of knockdown, and knockback is generally strictly worse so its not really overpowered. As mobs are unlikely to hang around in it this wouldn't matter much except in the case of AV fights - exactly the point where help is needed.

Another suggestion is to make Force Bomb a cone variant of Force Bolt. Not a bad idea either, but then the animation would have to change. Both Force Bomb and Force Bolt could have some debuff in this case; probably -Def again. Not as interesting as the Bonfire idea, but still better than what we have now.

In either case, the disorient would have to go; good riddance. A low magnitude, low probability disorient is of no value whatsoever.

Force Field is actually one of the strongest buff/debuff sets against an AV. First, because we can actually cage them (though maybe not all). Second, because we buff teammates rather than debuff enemies - and AVs have around 50% debuff resistance. So when Radiation Emission, Trick Arrow, or Dark Miasma bebuffs their accuracy, they do so at only half effectiveness - while FF still has its full effect.

The issue here, of course, is that most groups have enough staying power against an AV, but the punch to take them out in a timely fashion. FF doesn't help at all in the damage/accuracy department, nor can we debuff either resistance or regeneration. This is a major flaw in the set, but conceptually very hard to change.

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Repulsion Bomb should work more like Bonfire.

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This is a really brilliant idea.

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I responded to this just before bed yesterday; I want to elaborate on it now.

I feel a power like this fits the name Repulsion Bomb and the FF concept very well. It is like we project our powers away from ourselves, creating a virtual center for our repulsion powers some distance away. It doesn't break the basic use of the power (pushing mobs). It would change targeting (making it a drop power) and make it persistent.

I don't know how many have used Bonfire - its a clearly underused power from Fire Control and the blaster ancillary fire set. It is not that great a power for a controller, but works wonders for a blaster.

What it does is set up an area like an Ice Slick, only it has knockback - and lots of it. Mobs cannot stay in the area unless they have a lot of knockback resistance. Fliers are thrown out of the area but don't fall over. The slick lasts around 30 seconds, and also does pretty decent damage in the fire version - tough few mobs stay in it long enough to take much damage. Baiscally, it creates a roadblock. It has three uses:

It can create an area where it is safe for squishies to stand because enemies are knocked out of it. Not very interesting for force field, as we can already do this.

It can be placed behind a group of mobs, pushing them towards the user and making it impossible for them to run away. This can contain fights and keep groups separated. If placed in a corner, it can split a large group of mobs in two and allow you to defeat them pieacemeal.

It can be used in a dead end to push mobs against the walls, basically perma-knockbacking them. This use is very conditional, but also very powerful. Again, something we can already do, but knockback is better than repel here.

Thiven that the FF version of this power would not do any damage, and that we already can do 2 of the three functions of this power, I say a FF version of Bonfire should have a longer range than the controller/blaster version - range being the major limitation on this use of the power.

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I agree.

Where's the "unresistable power" of the FF set? Where's the "purple triangle for Knockback" effect? Why is the FF set rendered so impotent against AV's and Monsters? The design decisions that allowed this to happen need to be challenged.

- B.

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It's Detention Field; it can cage archvillains...which makes combat with them somewhat moot but can help with multiple AV spawns.

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Actually, Detention Field is the best control there is against archvillains. Cage the AV, eliminate all mobs around it, then gank the AV at your leasure.

The dangerous part of an AV fight is the opening, when there are still minions around to hurt the team in addition tot he AV. Detention Field handles that.

A graphical upgrade along the lines of Sonic Cage is really needed, tough. The changes implemented were not good enough.

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Repulsion Bomb should work more like Bonfire.

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This is a really brilliant idea.

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I think you short change the concept of street sweeping in other games a bit -- if all you do is instance missions, an MMO can begin to feel awfully empty and lonely!

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I think we'd get more street sweeping in outdoor debt and indoor debt became the same again. I remember street-sweeping in Perez and Boomtown - sweet times!

It is not all AoE knockback that scatters in all directions. I know Archery/Explosive Arrow does not, for example. Listinng which powers do what would be a valuable part of a guide like this.

As an occasional PvP:er at best, these are fixes that could make me look more favorably at PvP:

1. A handicap system, where a player with a high reputation gets penalized against a player of low handicap. This would make all matches meaningful.

2. There aren’t any meaningful rewards to encourage participation in PvP. Add zone rewards that are for PvPing, not for doing PvE activities in PvP zones.

3. Balance between melee and ranged doesn't work; melee starts overpowered and ends up puny. I don't demand powerset balance, but this is too sweeping an issue to be ignored.

4. Fly is not a viable PvP travel power.

5. Accolades should not be level-dependent.

6. A good PvP build can be very different from a good PvE build. My solution is to make powers work the same way in both styles. If some powers need to be nerfed for PvP (like Taunt), don't give them toHit check, give them a set % to fail. PvE toon design is confused by having these additional PvP-only slotting options.

When I saw Paragon Times, I was really hoping for hero/villain crossovers. Looks like that didn't happen.

Still, weapon customization is great. I might actually make an AR now. And having different-styled claws for left and right hand would be nice - especially if there is something punch-daggerish available.

I love my FF defender, her only problem is that many missions become too easy and a bit boring with her around. Another issue is endurance - I never get to use my damn Vigilance. I have also started to use FF on controllers.

PFF has more interesting uses in that it has a huge -aggro component. It can be used to ghost - not only are enemies unlikely to hurt you, they also forget you exist very quickly.

It can be used in a short "pulse" to get rid of unwanted aggro. Whenever the mobs start to target you, run PFF for a few seconds, and they'll quickly forget you exist.

For controllers, the "only affect yourself" effect combines very well with the nastier auras, such as Hot Feet and Arctic Air. Use PFF to move into the middle of the enemies, absorbing the alpha. Then take it down and let your aura make the enemies senseless. Makes you tank-like in efficiency.

While I like I9 overall. It is interesting to see that the new salvage-based economy pretty quickly made the old enhancement-based economy obsolete. But I have one big issue with it: solo grinding.

I sort of like that it now pays significantly better to fight magic opponents (mainly Circle of Thorns) than other opponents, but I dislike that it pays so well to do it solo or in a duo. Drops have been explained to be strictly per mob, with a slight increase based on mob rank. You defeat many more mobs/hour/player solo, and to a lesser extent in a duo. On a large team, you get mobs of a higher rank, but not more of them per player. This means fewer drops per player.

Soloing, while worthwhile, is not the most fun part of the game for most of us. In other words, this makes us do boring stuff in order to get phat lewt. And a game in which you do boring stuff quickly comes to seem boring itself.

What is needed is either that higher-ranked mobs drop A LOT more loot, or that the group xp compensation be somehow applied to loot.

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MAny serious 'street fighting' character is likely to rely on Martial Arts training before too long.

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What I want when I voted Street Fighting was a brawling/punching set. Basically, the same as Martial Arts, only you'd actually use your fists.

The game is full of flashy moves and over-the-top FX. Some options that fit natural characters would be great. In the same vein, I've always wanted a defense set that doesn't hide your costume.

The first step here should be to open up more cross-AT sets. Most Tanker/Scrapper/Stalker/Brute sets should be held in common. As should most Defender/Corrupter/Blaster blast sets, most Dominator/Controller control sets and most Defender/Mastermind/Corrupter/Controller defense sets.

This is a hero-side guide only, tough I imagine things will be much the same on the villain side.

As people might have noticed, many things do not sell well at all in the auctions. At the same time, the shops offer fair prices for salvage and (especially) single-origin recepies. So, what to sell where? I started gathering data on what to sell where, when I found a very, very simple rule: Magical Salvage Sells!

In short, anything magical is worth a bundle, while anything technological is best sold in the stores. The exception is orange salvage, which can fetch a fair price on the auction.

Recepies for enhancements that are not a part of a set sell in stores.

The reason is obvious; people are avoiding the magical enemies. As a side note, this means it is now very profitable to run missions against magical opponents, primarily the Circle of Thorns.

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Defense cannot floor someone strongly ToHit buffed that way.

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Agree, it cannot now. But this thread is about how things should be, not about how they are.

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The problem, as I see it, is that ToHit buffs are ADDITIVE, while accuracy is MULTIPLICATIVE. And the ADD happens before the MULTIPLY, which only serves to compound both of them. Plus, the same character can get both sides of that coin, at the same time, even when playing solo.


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This boils down to OFFENSE having a decided advantage over DEFENSE, in the majority of encounters. The cause of this is, ultimately, the very ToHit formulae used by the game. The only real fix would be to rip it out by the roots, and rebuild from the foundations up. That might strike some folks as a bit SWG-esque, though. So I won't hold my breath over it, sorry to say.

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I don't see this as a problem at all. As long as Defense can floor any amount pf +toHit, the accuracy multiplier can then get the actual chances back into reasonable numbers (which is about 10%).

Also, defense de-buffs should be a part of this balance - that is, the above figures are with defense debuffs applied. Of course, you'll need Defense Buffs to get to the level of defense where you can expect to be missed with defense debuffs running.