Spiritchaser

Again, I'd strongly suggest ignoring defence and defence resistance, and instead looking to resistance for protection. In the endgame, Electric is particularly close to cap and can get there a couple of ways. Earlier? go for oranges.

EDIT: this is in the context of S/L and romans. There are obviously places where res only presents serious problems

I remember doing this with my elec/fire and had no problems with the romans

To hell with defence, write it off and take it in the face.

With tough and charged armor, one orange should do you most of the time, and unlike lucks, you won't have to spam to try and chase a cascading failure. You can use it as you see yourself getting into trouble.

Now: Fire is not TW. Fire attacks are predictably short or long, and TW attacks are not. It's possible that this makes a big difference, I just don't know. I'll find out next time I'm playing my mid level elec/tw sober and have enough time for an ITF.


I do remember having issues with the negative damage.

Untill I hit 47 and threw in 3 scirrocos sets for negative resists I was bad.

Even at 50 with (edit cardiac, only had resilient on test...) and the +3 pvp res proc, I still wasn't totally bombproof against negative. With barrier I was tough enough, and on test, with the ATIO, I'm essentially not touchable by negative, but while it might be re-assuring in that it holds out some solid hope for the endgame, it has little functional bearing on a mid level tanker.

PS. throw in a couple of knock IOs, they're not that expensive!

I can't make conclusive statements, but I took it out on a Rikti Pylon

One Target, no chance for multiple procs.

I used the same chain I did against the unruly mobs of my earlier testing, which is to say, not an ideal ST chain at all... embarrasingly bad actually, I was barely nicking the pylon, I was making headway, but not much. At all.

Bottom line: I was nearly always at 3 stacks, occasionally falling to 2. I can't make a definitive statement, but it "felt" much the same in regards to uptime as my earlier play.

I don't know if the current level of stacking is intended

I may be gaming the current rules very well (by accident)

There may or may not be many bugs

But right or wrong, what is happening does not appear to be a multiple proc bug. EDIT: or if there is a multiple proc bug, I can still get 3 stacks against a single target without exploiting it, so long as I spam the slotted power.

I never saw more than 3, I'm pretty sure that's the limit there... but even there, with +20% res, you're making electric into a juggernaut, fire and dark into something close, and invul (which seems to benefit from everything) into an even better rounded set than it is now.

I was never aware of it proccing multiple times on a single swing. I only looked for this intermittantly, but I certainly never saw it happen. At this point, I'd say I don't think it was.

That said, it could be that, while it only procs a maximum of once per swing, it evaluates every target hit until it gets a success, artificially inflating the proc chance.

Not knowing what the proc rate for the IO is, or how it's balanced against recharge, I couldn't even begin to evaluate if this is happening, or even develop an opinion as to if I personally even THINK it's happening.

You could have a really good discussion about where, from a balance point of view, you think the number of stacks SHOULD be, and I'd probably say, from a res-def balance point of view, somewhere close to three under conditions of deliberate intent, and honestly? if you really wanted to balance res/def, probably more than 3.

Or you could make the argument that just because def is a bit over the top, doesn't imply that res should also be broken.

Or you could argue that with incarnate def cap, maybe def isn't so broken as it had been

Or you could argue that with all the wicked debuffs flying around, def is worth even more from the avoidance mechanism for debuff resistance

Or you could argue that, while you get hit with a great many more debuffs, and while a capped res build is still functionally weaker than a capped def build due to defence debuffs if nothing else, it's tough "enough" and it performs much more gracefully in the case of tohitbuffs.

Or you could argue...

Meh, I guess we'll find out.

I tried this in defensive sweep. (EDIT: with the superior version) Using a protective chain, I was able to keep it permanently at two, and nearly always at three. ST Dps went down, but you can't have everything.

This put me at the hardcap for smashing, lethal, energy, fire cold and psi.

Negative was at 85 which is flat out good enough, and toxic was at a consolation-prize-but-not-worthless 42%.

I've been planning on trying to put it in lightning field to see if that was better, but I have not yet done so.

Either way, defence bonuses could probably be ommited from this build, though debuffs would be problematic.

EDIT:though with ageless, winter's gift and focused Acc, I imagine it'd be ok.

What if activating taunt applied a stacking modest duration (modified by taunt enhancements) self buff to a tanker that increased their aggro cap somewhat?

Slot up taunt and spam it for maximum effect. Use it once or twice per spawn and see little difference?

I still don't think this really addresses what I'd call the biggest problem with tanks... multi-tank stackability, but I dont think it'd cause much of a problem either.

With regards to your other point... talking about def resistance in pools is downright scary without doing a whole lot of math and set comparisons. You'd really start getting in the way of what some sets are supposed to do well. Maybe it could be done fairly, but you might find that you'd have to nerf some sets to keep things fair.

Trikes can be shockingly unstable under combined brake and cornering loads... you'd be better with a 2 or a 4 wheeler...

Just saying...

Now a reverse trike would get you a bit further...

The people calling HOs obsolete in comparason to a def end recipe in the context of a maxed out shield build are probably comparing those HOs to +5 def end IOs.

This does do a couple of interesting things...

First off it stacks on teams, and buffs all team damage. I see that as solving the biggest problem tanks have: team stackability.

The magnitude of the debuff can be tuned such that any extra solo damage is mostly or totally counteracted by the attack chain time lost to taunting. This way you wouldn't have to buff tankers solo to buff them on teams.

I don't know how relevant a single target debuff would be in the current scheme of things, but that could be changed if needed.

Probably the largest problem is that there would be many who would resent another reason to feel "forced" to take taunt... It would not bother me but I have a feeling that the objections from some would get pretty loud.

I think worthless is a bit strong. They're obviously less good than a hold, and the stagger effect is not optimal, but provided magnitude and duration are appropriate, there's no reason stuns can't be desireable. No you'll EDIT: "Rarely do it to an AV", but there are a lot of genuinely dangerous bosses around...


Too bad you can't TF those into oblivion anymore...

But I'm not bitter...

No additional buffs for the power in question, or the set in general?

I think you could probably "fix" Energy Melee with a disintegrate effect. I think you could probably balance it just fine across all ATs. I personally don't think you should.

And I must stress this is a personal preference and style thing, but I'll go into it anyway, as I did on an earlier thread in the general discussion section.

Energy melee is a refined, efficient focused set of movements. It's not random.

If I want to smash the face off someone, it'll be the one I hit. For me, energy melee used to be about timing a fully stun enhanced TF so I could perma stun the boss, or even two bosses. Better still if they were two phasing carnie bosses... that used to be a hoot.

I suggested a couple of changes back in an earlier thread, I'll throw them out again:

1. Increase the radius on WH as per the existing dominator version (which gets the larger range)

2. Give TF back it's Mag 4 stun

3. Give ET back it's old animation, but in exchange, cut it's damage, and it's inflicted self damage down. Reduce it to a 10 or 12 second recharge power accordingly (I favour the higher damage 12 second recharge attack, but whatever). Yes this should now crit normally for stalkers (and eventually scrappers).

4. Get rid of the existing stun. Instead make it an AoE stun similar to fault or handclap, with no knock back.

No serious rework of the set, no new mechanism which (while potentially good and fun) would require going back to square one on design.

Even a short recharge, reduced damage ET strongly impacts ST Dps. You won't be tops but it'll be solid.

AoE is still poor, but more useable.

Control is now quite good.

As I remember, and I think I've said this recently too, there were a great many threads about the relative virtues of SS, SM and EM back in that era.

There was no general agreement as to which was preferable. "Why pick anything but EM" may have been asked more than once, but it was hardly the generally accepted feeling.

Someone recently wrote in another thread, that if EM currently existed in it's old form, it would not be considered at all overpowered. I'm inclined to think, though having so much of the set's potential tied up in a single power is probably not good design.

According to mids, that`s not really the case.

Energy Melee
Whirling hands, Radius 8

Battle Axe
Whirling Axe, Radius 8
Cleave, Range 10 x 20 degree arc
Pendulum, Range 7 X 180 degree arc

Broadsword
Slice, Range 7 X 130 degree arc
Whirling Sword, Radius 8
Head Splitter, Range 10 x 20 degree arc

Claws
Spin, Radius 8
Eviscerate, Range 7 x 90 degree arc
Shock Wave, Range 30 x 90 degree arc

Dark Melee
Shadow Maul, Range 7 x 45 degree arc
Dark Consumption, Range 10 (long recharge)
Soul Drain, Range 10 (long recharge)

Dual Blades
Typhoon's Edge, Radius 8
Sweeping Strike, Range 7 x 90 degree arc
1KC, Range 7 x 90 degree arc

Electric Melee
Jacob's Ladder, Range 7 x 50 degree arc
Thunder Strike, Range 7
Chain Induction (difficult to categorize)
Lightning Rod, Range 20 (Long recharge, but worth it!)

Fiery Melee
Breath of Fire, Range 15 X 30 degree arc
Fire Sword Circle, Range 10

Spin, Radius 8
Eviscerate, Range 7 x 90 degree arc
Shock Wave Range 30 x 90 degree arc

Katana
See Broadsword

Kinetic Melee
Repulsing Torrent, Range 40 x 45 degree arc
Burst Range 8

Stone Melee
Tremor, Range 15

Street Justice
Sweeping Cross, Range 7 x 50 degree arc
Spinning Strike, Range 7, Radius 6 (Targeted AoE)

Super Strength
Foot Stomp, Range 15

War Mace
Whirling Mace, Range 8
Shatter Range 8 X 45 degree arc
Crowd Control Range 8 X 180 degree arc

Titan Weapons
I HAZ MOAR AOE NAU!
Ahem, Dreadfully sorry, that happens sometimes.



Bottom line, there are two other powersets with a single AoE, both have ranges of 15.

To my mind this doesn't solve what I percieve the problem to be, although I'm not actually sure that there'd be much agreement on what the perceived problem is.

Some are concerned that with IO'd builds, tankers are not sufficiently superior to brutes or scrappers solo. I'd counter that with the tanker ATIO as it now stands, this is simply not the case. +20% res is anywhere from a significant benefit to a total game changer. It's not ignorable, even for SR tanks. The scrapper and brute ATIO procs are fine, but not close to this good.

If we're talking fully IO'd builds, then adding in 20% res all make it a lot harder, to the point of being silly, to look at a brute, and look at a tanker and say: This brute can do whatever that tank can. You may not value that added capacity, in that case? Fine please enjoy your scrapper or brute, but there can be little argument that the tank isn't going to be quite a lot tougher, even hellishly tougher for many builds.

Some are concerned that in teams and leagues, Buffed tankers don't offer more than buffed brutes for survival, and that they offer less when it comes to damage. I don't know that this will be true for all, or even the majority of leagues, but I can see how it's potentially a real concern, and all the more so with larger leagues and more powers. I'd particularly agree that multiple tankers offer especially little benefit, possibly less than any other AT in terms of stackability.

Stackability is important. With the ATIO coming down the pipe, a better solo tank is really very hard to justify. If we're talking IO'd builds, and when we're arguing about solo builds that are as durable as tanks, we are almost exclusively talking about IO'd builds, then we should be considering that 20% res.

Adding to the tankers damage cap would probably be the simplest fix, though the least interesting, it'd at least help out on leagues and make little difference solo (insp fuelled farming excepted). It would not solve the problem of tanker stacking in medium large teams and small leagues which will not always be able to cap damage. It's a smallish unaddressed problem, and something I'm sure we could live with, (EDIT: particularly since brutes, in these situations, probably are not hitting the res cap) but I'd rather see something that addresses stackability and force multiplication on all teams or leages.

I talked earlier about tanks debuffing foes with gauntlet, but that's just one way forward. If tanks (slightly) buffed their team in a stackable way, or (slightly) buffed each other in a stackable way? Well, I don't conceptually like it as much as the debuffing in gauntlet, but even so, the "brutes are just as good at durability and better everywhere important, problem would be solved. A team of 8 tanks is still not going to be optimal, but 3 tanks on a 7 man TF is not going to seem like a waste.

Increasing the tanker aggro cap probably isn't needed, but it doesn't seem like a bad idea either. I'd at least like to see it on test.

Provided it stays as is, and provided it isn't too hard to get these.

As it stands I think the proc is a disproportional boon to some sets.

That might be ok if those particular sets needed the help, but I'm not certain that they necessarily did. I have no reason to assume deltas are coming, but on the other hand, I wouldn't be shocked if they did.