Socorro
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Posts
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Quote:This is really it. Actually, visually I *prefer* Knockback. It's a staple of comics. Nothing says superhero much more than Superman or Hulk slamming mobs thru walls. But our game just isn't built for that kind of stuff.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The game mechanics direct critters to line up like bowling pins, only closer, and be killed by throwing a quarter at them and watching it bounce between their foreheads until they fall down. People say that's what's good about this game: that you can vaporize tons of foes simultaneously and that's part of what makes the players feel mighty. But seeing what its done to City of Heroes, and in particular what its done to both AoE and knockback - and I'm talking about the attitudes towards both, not the actual effects - I hope this is an object lesson out there that ensures that no MMO dev team, anywhere, for all time, ever makes the same mistake again.
There are some things you simply cannot give players, because when they take it and run with it they'll run face first into a tree. One of those things is the impression that massed kills is a player right.
Knockback wouldn't be as much of a problem if the critters didn't present stupidly grouped targets for AoE, or contrawise they had reinforcing buffs just like players that made them far more powerful and dangerous when you *let* them remain stupidly grouped together. The big problem with knockback really is that many players would rather the critters not move at all from the instant they are spawned, so all movement short of being taunted into a pile is considered bad.
The mechanics of knockback only make it more difficult to make knockback have pros and cons, like immobilize has pros and cons, because of its extremely quirky nature when it comes to how it interacts with resistance and protection.
That would be the ultimate solution. Make KB ubiquitous (most thematically appropriate powers do it), and welcome (tweak the game mechanics so that it's beneficial, maybe extra damage from getting slammed, etc) -
Quote:Most of the time, the 'correct' use of PBAoE KB powers (meaning not irritating the rest of the team) is to get on the edge of mobs, so as to knock the ones you do hit towards the middle, minimizing scattering. That also means you're only getting 1/2 to 1/3 (or even less) of potential targets inside your damage radius.Originally Posted by cybermitheral
The problem isnt Knockback powers.
Its the USE of those powers...[list of samples]
And knocking foes away because a Tank is over-aggroed as a welcome tactic...? Hmmm... I've played a PB for years and have never been thanked for that. Now, I have been asked to not use KB all by a Tank many times...
Nope, as the game is currently set up, the problem IS knockback powers. -
Quote:Wonder Twins: "Wonder Twin Powers...Activate!"Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Yes, because I think that we were all very, very worried that PBs would become overpowered.
Jan: "Form of...a bucket of water! ...Fear my power." -
Quote:I'd get it and slot it the second it hit liveOriginally Posted by Irresponsible
...what if they did something like reworked the nearly useless power of Group Energy Flight to something, perhaps called Gravity Pulse, which would cast an aura around a target that would change all knockback to knockdown on mobs within the radius of the power for a limited time? This would solve the problem of making PBs too overpowerd in the Devs' eyes as it would require the selection, slotting, and use of another power in order to get the benefit of reduced knockback and would also depend on hiting a given target and that target staying alive and nearby other mobs in order to be effective, not to mention that it would be set on a timer. Maybe the Gravity Pulse aura could even do a little DoT damage to the target and nearby mobs to make up for PBs' still noticable lack of damage compared to Warshades?
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Quote:Because KB has weakened many a PB's (and their team's) other AoE Powers more than any other effect in the game, which is exactly why Arbiter Hawk says it needs to stay; it ensures a PBs AoE ability isn't overpowered *boggles*Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Yikes...
KB has saved my behind more than any other effect in the game yet they view it as a negative?! -
Quote:Light Form as a ball of light was okay when it was an emergency power used every once in a while, but the new design seems to be with the intent that it will be used a lot more, and that what's I plan on doing. My new strategy come I21 will count on using Light Form pretty much perma; if I was constantly a ball of light - all - the - time - that's a strategy I wouldn't bother with.Originally Posted by Irresponsible
I don't care about seeing the costume so much in LF, if I did I wouldn't be playing a Kheldian. One of the best things for me about PBs is that fact that LF is a form unto itself and I loved the glowing swirling globe. As it looks right now it's just kind of blah.
I've had exactly one person ever complain about my PB doing knockback and that was one of those bossy blaster types who was obviously just jealous that my attacks were killing all the mobs before he could trigger his nova. When I stopped using doing my "annoying" knockback the team slowed to a crawl and started racking up the debt so that didn't last long.
As far noone complaining about your KB, well aren't you lucky *clap clap*. I've had complaints at least a dozen times (incl. 3 times on trials this weekend), and I've literally not been invited to a team because I was a PB.
I know, I know...lrn2play right. Well I have. I know quite well how to Solar Flare on the edge of a mob (reducing my hits from 10+ to 3-4 in the process) or just not use it at all to keep a team happy. -
Quote:I haven't seen the new Light Form, but what I've gathered is that you can pretty much see your character all the time, there's just an extra aura-effect on her. If so, I'm all for that. I hated the Ball of Light - I like seeing my costumes, thank you. (also the main reason I never went for the forms, nor a stone tanker)Originally Posted by Irresponsible
It is rather sad how PBs look in new Light Form at the moment. I'm curious if it is possible to just borrow the FX from Eclipse and change the color to bright white or to alternatively just use one of the auras we already have in the costume designer, only changed so that it only activates with Light Form? Personally I'd love it if the Atomic aura set to white and body or maybe a combination of the Atomic and Alpha or Atomic and Glow auras, also set to white and body, could be used as that would look awesome.
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Quote:haha nearly my exact thoughts when I first saw it.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...wut
No, seriously; What the hell?... -
Quote:No, but everbody's Kheld has access to the exact same powers and enhancements.Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Good for you. You're not everybody.
It's why Dechs isn't the only one who can make an MFing Warshade. -
Quote:For the subject I brought up (that KB limits powers), I'd say the Devs are quite correct. There's no doubt that my PB (and her team) would be kill things faster if I had Knockdown instead of Knockback in Solar Flare, Luminous Detonation, and Photon Seekers. When I scatter mobs, that slows killing speed. When I do the position dance so I don't scatter mobs, that slows killing speed. I see the empirical evidence of this every time I enter a mission.Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Because even if that's what they think, in practice they are proven wrong. Empirical results matter more than words, even words from the people in charge, and when I don't have a sledgehammer sticking out of the side of my head because my Power Burst knocked that Skull pancake over teakettle across the street, that's a positive result. This is not an abstract or philosophical conclusion.
I guess if I really needed KBs mitigation for survival then I'd feel differently but I'm tough enough to handle 8-man spawns alone. And even if I weren't, I certainly don't need it's mitigation when I'm teaming with Tanks and Trollers. Sorry if it sounds like I'm knocking builds that aren't built as tough, but PBs can be made very tough with their Resistances and Heals even without heavy IOing. Add in some IOs, esp. +def, and their toughness ratchets on up there.
As tough as PBs can be, it seems they can do fine without the mitigation KB gives, because, you know, killing things faster is mitigation in its own right
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People always say 'Search' before making a new topic, then they often say 'oooo Necrothread' when you do search and find a topic related to what you what you want to post...
There's an idiom that goes with that...
Anyway, since I've brought my PB out of retirement ready for I21, the KB dilemma has reared it's head for me again. While doing trials this weekend, anti-KB comments were made. Now, I know fully well how to control my KB, so there's no need for any 'learn to use it' suggestions. And like some here, I actually kinda like KB; bodies flying suggest power!
That said, the same tired issues come up. When teaming, I have to control KB by positioning, positioning takes times away from, you know, actually using your powers, so kill time is lessened. Even when Solo I have to control it, because one power's KB makes other AoE powers less useful due to scattered mobs.
These points have been argued ad nauseum, and quite a few say these attributes are not detriments or limiting factors, but are actually postives that you just have to learn to use. However, some recents posts in the Beta forums (esp in the Kheldian Surprise thread) adds some more insight to the argument.
It seems that Arbiter Hawk (the dev responsible for the latest Kheld changes) believes that KB must be kept in a Kheld's powers because, REMOVING KB would make a Kheld TOO POWERFUL. KB is not kept because a Kheld needs it as mitigation; it's kepts because it's needed as a LIMITING factor so that a Kheld's AoE potential won't be overpowering compared to other sets (Super Strength was the example given).
What I read is, straight from the Horse's mouth, is Knockback is viewed as purposeful negative hindrance, as a tool to reel back a toon's power.
How the Devs see no-KB as overpowering for a Kheld is beyond me, but that another argument. What I'm asking is that if the Devs themselve see KB as a limitation to a power, how do you pro-KBers keep suggesting it's not? -
Well, after having shelved her for a year, I've taken out my PB and have been Incarnatin' her in preparation for I21. Did Trials for a while yesterday - 3 separate times I was on Adds team.
1) "Ease up on the KB please..."
2) "We've got way too much KB going on here."
3) (direct tell) "PB, please control your KB"
I've been playing PBs for a long time, so I generally know how to control KB, meaning when I Solar Flare I'll go the edge of the Spawn and marvel when I maybe get 3 Targets in my Radius (but at least I'm knocking them back toward the middle right). I suspect there was just some PB bias going on, but I'm not blind, perception and realithy sometimes do go hand in hand. When I don't line things up just right (or just get tired of having to do it all the time) I can clearly see those bodies flying
Finally I gave up using Solar Flare completely if I was fighting Adds. So Arbiter Hawk, if our KB is designed to keep us from being overpowered, it's a gigantic success. -
Quote:With what kind of slotting in Light Form? Right now I have 4 pieces of Reactive Armor in there (to get an extra bit of S/L defense); that includes the three pieces with +Recharge in them for a total of (if I have the numbers right): +24.1 + 24.1 + 19.3 = 67.5%.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Not sure about Inner Light, but Light Form should be a minimum of 150% Global Recharge.
Currently, I'm sitting at about 145% global recharge (when Hasten is up), but will soon have another LotG, so I'll be at 152.75%
Should all that be enough? Or do I need to change the slotting in Light Form? -
Gaaahh you numbers gurus make my head spin...in a good way
So, I won't be loading up with Purples on my I21 respec build any time soon, so... how much Recharge Reduction from IOs and how much global Recharge would I need to make the upcoming Inner Light and Light Form powers perma without taking Spiritual Alpha? How much with at least T3 Spiritual Alpha?
Thanks -
I'm not sure why anyone thought splitting the player bases is a good idea
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Quote:Nerds rule the modern worldOriginally Posted by ultrawatt
And i thought i was a nerd. O.O
Awesome.
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Quote:You speak the truth. However, slotting MM attacks with every damage proc you can (along with Incarnate Interface) into them pushes them into some level of respectability damage-wise. Not great still, but at least I feel like my attacks hurt a bit now... and every once in a while all the procs will go off at once. Not bad at all.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I am, actually. ACC/END/3xDAM. All three of them. I slot them, I use them, and I still feel the things are worthless. A Punk with all three upgrades has the same three attacks as a Thugs Mastermind. I'm sure they're on a lower damage scale (I believe it was something like 0.45 for minions while the Mastermind is 0.55), but here's the thing - my pets are slotted for damage, too - 3xDAM. I'm not sure if a single Punk can clearly outdamage my Mastermind, but I can tell you that something as simple as two of them can.
But this isn't really a question of who outdamages what. It's a question of "Why did I just devote three power picks and 16 slots to attacks that do a whole lot of not much?" I'm sinking a serious investment into these things, and I'm getting a joke in return. Oh, great, a little extra DPS, which just gets lost in the shuffle of even just a single boss level henchman for a damag-centric boss.
Whenever I've happened to send my Henchmen to attack one thing and ended up with a straggler minion eyeing me up, I've found it's a major chore to take him out on my own. If a minion is down to a third HP from random AoEs, then I can conceivably take down that minion in four or five shots by the time my henchmen are done wiping the floor with the rest of the spawn, but if a minion is at full health and - heaven forbid - resistant to my damage type then I may as well not even bother. I haven't calculated how much DPS Mastermind attacks contribute, but from empirical experience, I know it ain't much. My time, power picks and slots are much better spent taking things that actually help me, like my support powers.
When people say that Mastermind attacks are useless, they mean this in the most literal sense possible - they have no use whatsoever. There is absolutely no practical reason for a Mastermind to take and slot these attacks because Masterminds are intentionally made to have the game's WORST personal damage by a HUGE margin, and a margin which has only gotten wider in the years since they were made. The debuffs on the Mastermind attacks are next to useless and vastly overshadowed by your own support set, their damage doesn't matter and will at best have a marginal effect... Really, why would I ever want to take a Mastermind attack unless I felt like wasting a few power picks and a few slots on gimmicks?
That's all Mastermind attacks are - a gimmick. It's something you can do for the sole reason of demonstrating that you can do it, but without actually achieving any practical benefit from doing so. And that's from someone who takes, slots and uses his Mastermind attacks all the time. They're nothing more than toys that I use to play around with, but which I put away the instant the game becomes serious and I have to actually to worry about survival and performance. Mastermind attacks are the powers system equivalent of the slap/smack emote - they're funny to watch, but they don't do much. Taking and slotting them is about as useful as slotting Sprint and Rest. And Brawl... -
Quote:Well you can be strong without being fast. Being able to jump far has as much to do with fast-twitch muscle movement (or the superhero equivalent) is as important as strength.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Hulk is one of few characters that actively USES Super Jump.
But, since all it is is a function of his leg strength, it is logical to assume that any character with super strength should be capable of it (assuming their super strength is not a side effect of them being particularly dense, which means they will be very heavy as well).
In comicdom, the Thing is a good example of one not being able to jump far despite being superstrong. Gray Hulk once beat him by super-jumping away from him, forcing Thing to huff-&-puff run to catch up, wearing him out in the process. -
Quote:Well, a Hold-type power obviously (tying or tripping, lariat-like), maybe a whip-like power, or DoT lariat-strangle...Originally Posted by Kangstor
I am wondering about something. Its ok wanting a swing travel power set but what will be other 4 powers? Other than a swing kick I can't think much without going a web-only concept and I don't think it will be done unless there is more general ideas about it. Othwerwise swing can be just added like ninja run or hoverboard.
Honestly, I'd rather Swinging be a singe purchasable power -
I wonder how hard it would be to have a 'Swinging' power somehow check to see if you're near tall structures. If you are, then the zip-line effect takes over; you wouldn't see the end of your line as it really wouldn't be attached to anything. It'd just sorta fade away, but you have the immersion effect of being near buildings, towers, etc. and 'swinging' from them.
You wouldn't actually use high structures, just have to be relatively near them, and they wouldn't effect your travel path, other than if you got too far from them, then the secondary travel effect takes over.
The secondary effect would be an acrobatic run/jump movement, similiar in stats to ninja/beast run, but with more acrobatic animations. Once you near a tall structure, the swinging effects takes over once more.
As far as how high you can go? Ideally, not higher than the closest structure; of course this is assuming the game engine can sense this stuff anyway...
Again not fully realistic, but then, I can super-jump a hundred yards, then change directions full 180 in mid air, even landing back where I started. So much for hyper-realism... -
I'd take a Swinging power even if you could swing where there are no buildings. Let me handwave away what "makes no sense" on my own thank you...
I already handwave the fact I can 'Superjump' hundreds of yards off a surface of water. Honestly, I don't jump on water most of the time because breaks immersion - I'd probably do similiar with swinging. Now if I'm on a TF or whatever and we're hurrying to the next mission, then whatever, get there as fast as possible. -
Quote:or....Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Here I am.Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Are you going to rock him like a hurricane?
Playing with those Memories again. -
Quote:The Vet attacks do some 3 to 4 times the damage of my Thug MM's pistol attacks. They really do decent damage. If I use only those in between doing pet-controlly-things, I actually am contributing a bit. My point is if MMs can have access to (free!) attacks that do good damage without wrecking the AT, then why can't their attacks (requiring a pick and slotting) perform similiarly?Originally Posted by Paladiamors
Ehhhh, MM attacks are meant to be supplimental, and not the main source of damage. The idea is to deal damage alongside your minions, and not to be a blaster all on your own. Yes, I know, probably preaching to the choir. *Laughs* I have to say though, I love my Ninja mastermind's bow attacks. It's just a machine gun of arrows. Low damage arrows, but you can ghetto chain it when you aren't debuffing or healing or what have you.
To be honest, I feel like Masterminds need one more attack. No room for it, but that's just how I feel.
Edit: I always take the masterminds attacks. It's extra burst damage when you need it, or when you don't have anything else to do. Otherwise I'd end up sitting around twiddling my thumbs...a lot. I wanna get stuck in wit da boys!
I take the MM attacks too; I can't abandon concept completely, but I know I'd be better off numerically spending those picks and slots on something else and just use Vet attacks.
addendum: I know no every one has Vet attacks, but come Freedom they'll be available to anyone who wants them. Also, if you do Trials alot, the Vet attacks are disabled, so that's a small incentive to get the regular MM attacks. -
Quote:Do you mean easily spotted with the naked eye? Maybe in the Great Plains states, but not so in certain hilly, heavily forest areas. I live in the one of those areas (US Southeast) and we have our share of tornadoes, and you literally cannot see them coming with the naked eye. This last spring, there was a devastating batch of storms and tornados; dozens of homes in my area were destroyed. The damage and after effects where surreal. Google "Tornado Rampage 2011" and you'll see what I mean.Originally Posted by Durakken
Tornado's are easily spotted long before they actually do any damage any where. They move, but for the most part you can get out of their way with ease either by driving like a mile or two away or simply going into a basement...
All you can do is listen to the radio and take shelter (which most people indeed do), but you have no idea if you're directly in a tornado's path or not, because they're 'over the hills and thru the woods' hidden from you.
And to answer the OP's question - that's quite scary. -
More important, make MM Pistols worth taking! Gawd, their damage is anemic. Shame that you can get so much more production from Vet & Epic Attacks. I love the pistols quite alot, and in an slight act of self-gimping, I have the single and dual shot attacks each 4-slotted, all with damage procs just to try to their damage any any level of acceptability.