Smiling_Joe
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Actually, it doesn't give you psi resist. But it should.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
White Dwarf gives you higher resist to *everything*
And while I'm pointing out one of the detracting features of white dwarf, let me point out a few more benefits:
It offers the same jump height as combat jumping, but FOUR TIMES the movement control.
It not only costs less endurance to run than the two or three shields, but it also offers a small but slottable endurance boost to pay for the toggle.
Tankers and Scrappers get 10 points of knockback protection. Dwarf gets 100.
Tankers and Scrappers get 10 points of mez protection. Dwarf gets 15. -
I'll take it. A white-colored void judgment doesn't really look like a peacebringer power, either, but I'm happy with that, too.
Still want the voids as pets. Oh yeah. It's personal. -
Quote:I'm still waiting on coffee to brew, so I don't think I'm firing on all pistons, but how is this any different from how they are now, apart from the shortened recharge time?Originally Posted by Redlynne
Another Counter-proposal:
What about re-conceptualizing Photon Seekers as (essentially) Pet Based Trip Mines?
Trip Mines in the Devices and Traps powersets are stationary proximity bombs, which have a duration well in excess of their recharge time. The most common way to deploy Trip Mines is to lay a "Flower Garden" of them, stacked, and then either drag aggro across them or use TP Foe to drop a hostile into them. When stacked up in large quantities, Trip Mines *can* operate as a location based crashless nuke power.
So what if Photon Seekers were reworked into being a "mobile" Trip Mine styled power? They'd be doing Energy Damage, instead of Fire Damage. They'd still be doing Knockback. You'd be able to summon more than one Photon Seeker at a time, limited only by the recharge+animation time cycle measured against the "duration" of the Pets before they start to reach their self-destruct limit.
So I ask you ... what's a good argument for NOT reworking Photon Seekers into being a mobile pet-based version of Trip Mine?
Or is the shortened recharge time the point? (where's that frickin' coffee?) -
Okay, here's my build - it's not the best build coming or going, but there it is. Anyone got a better one post it here. I'm sure someone does, BUT if I don't hear back in a reasonable amount of time I"ll just use this one.
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|0057F3A291F834FC266587C885FF7A45E1E1| -
Quote:NOOOOO! I was not! To which pets are you referring?Originally Posted by Wondering_Fury
I am not sure if you are aware of this but I did hear someone mention there were PB-like Lore pets in 20.5.
Fury -
Quote:Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Nobody's enthusiastic about it because not that many forumgoers care much about SO-based performance. I'd tend to agree with you that the kheldian inherent will need to change if the ATs' powers are going to be improved on, because the devs at least pay lip service to SO-based balanced. I'd also expect warshades are going to get slapped with power nerfs if and when that happens.
But I also think that unless the overhaul takes IOs into consideration, kheldians will at best end up the 'dual pistols' of AT choices - looking cool, but at best mediocre performers in the end game. The reason scrappers are the gold standard for performance comparison and set the baselines for pylon times or AV soloing or so on isn't because of what they can do on SOs. And the incarnate trials seem to very explicitly acknowledge IOs, such as by increasing their NPCs' base accuracy and giving them autohit debuffs and special 'boss fight mechanics' to their AVs.
Speaking as someone whose peacebringer tanks both trials, I can honestly say I have no idea where you get the notion that khelds are having difficulty completing them. With the exception of the lamda split team insanity, I rock through them with around 100-120% damage buff and capped resistances. I can count the times I've died on one hand, and have had zero problem with feeling gimped.
I am, of course, IO'd. So I'll tell you what. Bill Z did another thread giving scrapper and brute top-end dps chains. If you good folks can agree upon a top end Peacebringer build and a top end Warshade build, I will plug those into the spreadsheets and give data from there. Hell, let me get home and I'll throw my own peacebringer build up and you can decide if it's worthy to punch in (although I'll warn ya, it's as quirky as I am).
Will that finally put the high end game argument to rest? -
Quote:Well that's an interesting notion. Just how easy is it for a scrapper to reach the damage cap? Let's take an SO build dm/shield scrapper. IF AAO can keep 10 targets in its 8 foot radius then that will give the scrapper an 81% damage boost. If Soul Drain is fully saturated with 10 targets you're looking at 100% added to that for a total of 181% to add to the 194% damage already given by a fully-slotted attack power. That's 375%, which is 125% less than the scrapper damage cap of 500%. That's self buffing at fully maximized potential.Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
Yeah, I have to admit that I am skeptical. The Kheldian damage modifier is significantly lower than the Scrapper which means while 60% might close the initial gap, any further buffs from teammates will benefit the Scrapper far far more than they will the Peacebringer, who will hit his lower ceiling faster. So the PB might be realizing a greater % of his damage potential by himself thanks to the Inherent, but the Scrapper still has a higher top-end performance, which he is more likely to achieve since the only time this comparison happens is on large teams which are likely to have external buffs. And of course, if you're on a team large enough and well balanced enough to actually be receiving these bonuses, chances are you're steamrolling content anyway. Which means the only time you really wring any benefit out of Cosmic Balance is when that benefit matters less.
tl;dr the numbers might be correct but I'm not sure they're important.
EDIT: Joe's numbers. Again, it's nice to see that a PB might be able to hit their (lower) damage cap all by themselves, but if anything that just means that they are losing out on external buffs from their teammates that the rest of the team is benefiting from. I'm not convinced this is actually a strike in the PB's favor.
A peacebringer with just three defense archetypes on a team is getting a 60% boost to damage. Add 194% for the attack and 72% for build-up and you've got a total of 326% damage. Keep in mind we're not talking about three defenders; we're talking about a mix that can be pulled from tankers, corruptors, masterminds and defenders. In other words, it's not such specific circumstances, and since the buff is given without these other players having to DO anything, I'd argue that this too is self-buffing (while teamed).
So the scrapper at maximum self buff potential is going to get to 375% out of a total of 500% possible damage buff, or - to put it another way - 75% of the way there.
A peacebringer, by contrast, only needs what could be called average teaming conditions to get 326% out of 400%, or 81% of the way to the damage cap.
In the race to the damage cap, peacebringers win by about six percent.
Throw in a few teammate buffs, now. If an emp is on the team, then fortitude gives 31% more. If a thermal controller is there, then forge gives 40. Siphon power gives 25, and world of pain gives 16. There are others (and I'm deliberately leaving out fulcrum shift), but let's use fortitude and forge. Together, that's 71% more damage given to each, leaving the scrapper at 446% damage, or 89% of the way to the cap. The peacebringer is sitting at 396% damage now, which is obviously 99% of the way to the cap.
Even with buffers, the peacebringer reaches the cap faster.
But it's not really about the cap, is it? It's about overall performance. So let's take both of these theoretical archetypes and compare their overall performance. First, we need to deduct 194% from both of them for their attack damage, which will be represented in dps.
Next, let's take out build up and soul drain, which are both normalized and represented in their respective attack chains. AAO should be normalized too, so let's take that out.
This leaves us with 130% damage buff for the peacebringer and 71% for the scrapper.
Bill Z used three targets for soul drain, so let's use that for AAO as well and add it back to the scrapper's buff for a total of 104%.
So that's a 130% buff for the peacebringer and 104% buff for the scrapper. With me so far?
According to the best chain Bill Z and company could come up with for an so'd dark scrapper, the top dps was 141.6 add in a 104% damage buff and you've got 289 dps.
Peacebringer dps has three numbers:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 86.51
Add in 130% damage buff and it looks like:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 256
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 253
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 198.9
So, 289 for the scrapper and 256 for the peacebringer.
Scrapper wins, obviously.
BUT that's only accounting for three other people on the team for the peacebringer. The scrapper has - unless another buffer or two is added - just about tapped his potential for damage outside of inspirations, even though he's not at the cap. The peacebringer has four other teammates from which to draw some sort of buff that - while it won't increase his damage - can potentially make him more survivable than that scrapper.
But having said all that, you are quite right about the advantages of having a higher cap. However, what we're seeing here is what many would consider a pretty balanced picture, and if we're trying to make the argument that peacebringers need help, then we'd best do it with the inherent in mind, don't you think? -
Quote:See the scrapper and brute numbers for yourself.Originally Posted by Jibikao
Are you sure that PB can out-damage Scrapper? You need how many teammates? 3 will be 60%. That's enough for PB Human to out-damage scrapper? I find it hard to believe.
When I used to have full human build, I never felt my damage was "high". I do feel the +resistance from teammates because with shields, my resistance was over 50%.
Highest damage on SO's was 172 dps.
Now look at the Peacebringer spreadsheet I referenced in the first post.
With 3 defense archetypes, human form dps is 173 dps, Nova is 172.4 (roughly equal to the brute best), and Dwarf is in the middle with 134 dps.
Now look at this link.
Now back to me.
I've always wanted to do that.
Anyway, there you go. Now keep in mind that this doesn't take IO's and set bonuses into account - scrappers and brutes have far more slots with which to get the insane set bonuses that make them so godlike, so the gap really widens once IOs are slotted.
But at one point Kheldians were exceeding the specialist archetypes when teamed. If anything, the impression that kheldians (more specifically, peacebringers) are underperforming comes from an inherent that was designed before there were IO's.
In other words, the gap between Kheldians and other archetypes in the end game has widened because of IO's, and when the game is ostensibly designed around SO's that ain't such a good thing.
EDIT - interesting note. With seven defense archetypes on a team a peacebringer is doing 140% extra damage. Add that to the 100% damage that every power does, and add 94% damage for enhancement (and every attack in the build I used is slotted to 94% damage) and you come out at 334%. What's Build Up give you? 72%?
Boom. You're at the damage cap once you've hit build up. And we say peacebringers are poorly designed.
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Random observation: My original intent for this thread was to point out what our inherent does - and doesn't do - for us, but does anyone besides me find it ...interesting... that a thread has been created basically proving that BOTH warshades and peacebringers can out-damage scrappers and no one seems to be all that enthusiastic about it?
Are Kheldian forum-goers all solists?
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Quote:I noticed that on my wife's new steampunk character - don't suppose there's a male version that I just haven't noticed?Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And as a side note -
Steampunk belt - clock = very sash-like.
'Cause I'd totally use it. -
Quote:I believe Void Hunters are part of the larger group Nictus, which includes white and black dwarves, as well as bright and dark novas. Don't forget the unbound Nictus. If they ported them over from the specially created nicti from the ITF, you'd have all the buffing you'd need.Originally Posted by Vanden
There's not really much to work with in Void Hunters, is there? The group is just the exact same NPC at boss, lieutenant and minion rank. No AoEs, no support powers, just a single-target blast and a melee punch. Not even different costumes. They'd have to make the pets almost from scratch.
Although I don't think they'd let you consume one and rez.
But that would be cool, though, right?
No, no. Never mind that last part.
Although now I'm thinking about how cool it would be to have a cyst crystal as a stationary pet. (Did I get the right stationary, there? I meant it in the standing-still sense, not in the "pet will mail condolences cards to my enemies' next-of-kin" sense, though that would be funny.) -
I'm a little of two minds on this. On the one hand, I agree with Teflon (can I call ya Teflon?) with regard to the cottage rule. Very good point.
HOWEVER, I'm still with Bill's suggestion. Just because it isn't necessary to cater to a playerbase who've learned to work around a crappy power doesn't mean the whatever workaround we've come up with (in this case, using it as a mini-nuke) needs to be totally discarded when suggesting changes to the power.
I would absolutely hate to see photon seekers turned into brightly colored copies of warshade extracted essences (which is where arguments against the cottage rule where it's applied to photon seekers seem to inevitably lead). Yes, the essences are awesome. Yes, they account for roughly half the warshade's dps.
If I want essences, I'll play a warshade. With the forms being color-shifted copies of each other, and with many of the animations and attacks being shared between the two archetypes, I'll take whatever I can to keep Peacebringers as unique in as many areas as possible.
THIS is the chief reason to preserve as much of the flavor of Photon Seekers as we can IMHO. Shorten their recharge, sure. Have them do something different when they explode, why not? Give them a taunt aura, hell yes.
But don't make them hover-blasting wisps. -
Quote:I did indeed go with three damage types and three defense types - not because it's some sort of most common mix or average team, but just to show that it doesn't take a full team of one type or the other to push kheds (and more specifically, peacebringers) past other archetypes in performance.Originally Posted by Zenyth
Okay, im gonna assume you went with 3 dps types, 3 defense types, for your stand in "average team" on these numbers...Assuming because I suck at reading spreadsheets and thats what you seem to have gone with.
I'm betting that it will take a change to our inherent to get us changes at all, and that the reason Khelds are "on the list" of things to look at sometime in the future when they get time is because they're going to have to tweak the inherent before fixing anything else.Quote:I dont really know how changing our inherent will help us get changes faster...because changing our inherent is a fairly big overhaul of a change in and of itself.
There are different levels of change, too. My idea of a proc effect replacing buffs was, tbh, not terribly well thought-out. They could just as easily decide to lower the buffs teammates give so that it does take an entire team of defenders to push us past scrappers in dps.
The question is: are we willing to trade that nerf for whatever changes they would make to help peacebringers and solo khelds? Now's the time to have that discussion.
I'm not saying changing the inherent will buff the archetype; I'm saying the archetype isn't getting buffed because the inherent would overpower us if that happened.Quote:Next up, changing the inherent doesn't make wonky choices like pulsar being stun and Incandescent strike being a hold any less wonky...it doesn't really give us a use out of our inherent solo...and any change to the inherents for khelds just leaves PB's still in the lurch and makes WS's even more godlike since they were capping their resists and damage solo on x8 anyways.
Dont get me wrong, I think that WS's and PB's capping their resists very easily on teams with barely any thought or effort is a bad thing to begin with, but any change to PB's and WS's are gonna want it too, and any change to WS's will either overpower them or require the touching of their golden calf...and WS's dont like the thought of someone touching their golden calf.
I just don't see how this is the golden bullet for all of our problems that folks are making it out to be.
It's our inherent that's the wonkiest of all... letting peacebringers soar from lackluster performers to the height of performance while doing relatively nothing for the already-awesome warshades. It's our inherent that allows us to surpass specialist archetypes at what they do best while at the same time allowing us to languish beneath a poor archetype design.
Our inherent is a band-aid over that poor design, and should be addressed with any changes to that design IMO.
But my opinion is neither here nor there; I'm betting that the powers team has seen this already. I'm beting that's why we can't get any changes made that aren't small changes like the buff to glowing touch, and I suspect that's why longstanding acknowledged bugs like shapeshifting being interruptible are put off while bugs that would benefit us like beast run available in forms are immediately squashed. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Timeshadow
cosmic justice
Yeah. You should probably trademark that.
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...to get void slayers as lore pets?
Huh?
Huh?
EDIT - or nictus dwarves and novas. I'd take those. -
Quote:Elegant or not, it works.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Didn't mention anything about recharge.
Buffs.... Given it's a PBAOE buff, I think the damage buff would work - but you do have a point. What if, for the Kheldian, it pulled a Vigilance? Solo, you get X damage buff, dropping as you get more teammates? THEY still get the full buff, of course.
Though that's getting ... mechanically "not so elegant." -
Quote:Given the buffs provided by our inherent (see the thread I just posted) I'm betting that a straight up damage buff would be out. So I still like the idea of the two-part pet you originally proposed.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... or both. *shrug*
My main point for that is the "ongoing extra damage," similar to what EE brings. If the buff(s) are more likely, I wouldn't argue against them. ("The residual energy of the explosion stays with you and your teammates for 90 seconds" or some such.)
No, strike that. I love it.
But let's talk about what, specifically it buffs. As I said, I think a damage or resistance debuff would be out, but a recovery buff aura wouldn't be too shabby. Also wouldn't mind a regeneration buff.
Even better would be a combination of the two.
I didn't catch it in your original suggestion: did you propose anything one way or the other with the power's recharge? -
Ya know, I got to looking at those spreadsheets linked to in this post the other day, and thought, "I've really sort of done Kheldians a disservice, here." (I was also flat-out wrong on a couple of math things on the survivability sections, and have corrected that in the spreadsheets and the post).
Why have I done our alien archetypes a disservice? Because I didn't take our inherent into account when I did the spreadsheets, and as such they don't give an appropriate measure of the archetypes' damage potential when teamed, and when the archetypes are designed around teaming, that's a problem.
SOOOO I went back and plugged in some new numbers based on teams. Nothing weighted or averaged or anything like that; I just wanted to show what effect a team could have on damage/self mitigation scores. (never mind the extra survivability that comes, you know, from the team)
For purposes of my analysis I used a pretty well balanced team of three "damage" members(for example: a scrapper, a brute and a blaster) and three "mitigation" members (Like a tanker, a defender and a mastermind). For a seventh one let's use a kheldian. Because it really doesn't matter what the seventh one is for this.
Now, for Peacebringers and Warshades alike, this team makeup gives you a potential 60% damage boost and a potential 30% resistance (provided all members are within range)
So... plugging the numbers into the spreadsheets I have arrived at these two analyses:
Peacebringers
Warshades
The rundown:
PEACEBRINGERS
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 173.05
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 172.44
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 134.05
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 229.13
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 313.32
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 199.93
Self Mitigation
Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 135
Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 61
Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 403
WARSHADES
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 246.33
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 288.33
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 271.33
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 327.72
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 489.72
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 585.72
Self Mitigation
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 87.8
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 77.28
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 764
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 2351
See? See why we can't have nice things? See why the developers are so reticent to give us any more love than they have already?
No?
Well, just look at those damage numbers. I wonder how a damage archetype - say a scrapper - would do with an optimum attack chain on just SO's? If only there were some place I could go to find those numbers.
Oh, wait. There is.
Thanks to Bill Z Bubba and our friendly neighborhood scrappers, we have - in hard numbers - what the top scrapper and brute attack chains can produce on nothing but SO's.
When teamed with JUST THREE OTHER DAMAGE DEALERS, a warshade DWARF can out-dps the top dps dealer from either scrappers or brutes. A human form Peacebringer that's teamed with a tanker and two defenders, provided it can keep from being mezzed can also top brutes and scrappers in average performance. Throw in two controllers and mez isn't even a problem. A frickin' WHITE DWARF falls somewhere around the middle, and if there's three damage dealers is more survivable than any of them, to boot!
Scoff all you want, throw out all the anecdotes you want to disprove it, but our inherent is what's holding us back.
Wait, what? I know what you're thinking: "But Joe, our inherent makes us awesome! LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS! Well, maybe you're not thinking that, but I need to make a point, so just pretend you are. IT'S CALLED SOPHISTRY, PEOPLE! Work with me, here.
The argument could - and should, imho - be made that warshades don't even need their inherent. Even on SO's, a well-built warshade on a team (or with the right difficulty settings) can run around at the damage and resist caps a fair bit of time anyway. And what about Peacebringers? Peacebringers only wish they could do that, but I submit that the reason they can't is because of how crazy good they'd be on teams, due to the inherent.
You know what? Let me avail myself of the copy/paste function and remind you of what those solo numbers were:
PEACEBRINGERS
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 86.51
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 156.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 240.7
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 133.51
Self Mitigation
Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 81
Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 42
Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 153
WARSHADES
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 189.08
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 212.08
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 198.08
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 254.82
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 368.82
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 334.82
Self Mitigation
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 81
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 72
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 313
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 1426
EVEN SOLO, a warshade with the build contained in the spreadsheets (it's on the first page of each linked sheet, look for a yellow box called "BUILD") can out-damage a scrapper or a brute, given the right conditions. It's that "right conditions" caveat that's kept them from being nerfed I suspect, BUT the point remains that Kheldians do just fine on teams.
Peacebringers are out of balance with warshades and have some serious power synergy problems, but there you are.
So let's ask them to change the inherent.
I'm not talking about removing team-oriented buffs, just changing them to something else. Say, a proc buff ala the same code as some of the incarnate slots?
For example, what if Peacebringers got a damres debuff proc on their attacks with an increasing chance to fire for every defender/tanker/mastermind/corrupter on the team, and got a recharge proc for every scrapper/brute/blaster/stalker? Leave controllers/dominators and epic archetypes alone.
Conversely, what if Warshades got a negative enrgy damage proc for the damage a/t's and a stun or a slow proc for the buff a/t's?
With a proc effect verses a straight-up buff, there'd be a ceiling to our teaming inherent that would give them some wiggle room to give us (specifically, peacebringers) some much-needed attention.
But that's just one idea. My main point is that the inherent will have to change before any individual powers change with respect to giving us more damage or survivability.
What say you, Kheldians? Anyone agree, or am I crazy? Or both. I'm willing to 'fess up to a little nuttiness now and then.
Either way, I want to hear ideas for our inherent. -
Besides which a better comparison for the peacebringer heals (especially the dwarf heal) is Reconstruction - all three have .73 second cast times, 60 second recharge and heal for similar amounts. Only functional difference is Regenerations Toxic Resist.
Kuji-In Sha also heals for similar amounts and has a 60 second recharge. It also has a toxic resist, but has a 1 second cast time.
I'd compare the peacebringer heals to either of those two before I compared them to aid self.
EDIT - now if you were to use that comparison as a basis for adding some sort of resistance to the heals, well then.... -
Quote:I'd be on board for this if they lowered the recharge as well.Originally Posted by Redlynne
Counter-proposal.
Photon Seekers summons as a single puffball pet (same animation as legacy).
Summoned Photon Seekers Pet can be controlled via Mastermind/Lore Pet Controls (major upgrade in functionality!) and summons with default behavior of Defensive/Follow. Summoned Pet is named in the Pet UI as "Photon Seekers" (plural), even though only a "single pet" is summoned.
Summoned Photon Seekers Pet "detonates"/self-destructs upon entering melee range of selected target. Spherical PBAoE Radius: 15 ft. Animate "detonation" as a "photon seeker particle/projectile GFX" being launched from the point of origin towards every hostile target within the Area of Effect. Each hostile within the 15 ft Spherical Area of Effect is given a Grant Power Effect (as a "result" of being hit by the particle/projectile GFX).
Grant Power Effect (on each hostile target) is a Spherical PBAoE that deals Damage and 0.67 Mag KnockUP around the affected targets. Spherical PBAoE Radius: 10 ft, Max Targets: 10. Grant Power Effect intentionally designed to permit overlapping of AoEs of Damage and KnockUP so as to yield variable throughput performance depending on the situation. Animate as "bright flash" explosion using legacy Photon Seekers Detonation animation.
In-game performance and behavior:
This would convert Photon Seekers into something of a "fissionable" damage/knockUP effect, dependent on how many targets are "available" to power the damage cascade, rather than on the number of Seeker Pets summoned. It would be a 2-stage effect, where the "detonation" of the Pet itself determines the Primary PBAoE location. Every hostile within that Primary PBAoE gets affected with a Grant Power which then causes the Secondary PBAoE(s, plural!) that actually inflict the damage.
The net result would be that Photon Seekers would be more powerful against tightly packed groups of enemies, and less powerful against single foes (such as AVs). This would put the power more into the role of being a "pet based, deployable room sweeper" rather than a nuke or "mini-nuke" type power. With use of Mastermind Controls, it could even be used as a Scout or as a player controlled(!) Alpha Strike (assuming the initial summoned Pet doesn't get destroyed en route to target).
The simple fact of the matter is that we've already GOT a "one-size fits all NUKE" power on Peacebringers. It's called Dawn Strike, and it's a 25 ft PBAoE, so we don't exactly need a "second nuke" power that's really trying to be a copy of the first, except without the END crash. And if we're going to be deploying Photon Seekers as a Pet Based Nuke ... then by all means, let's make it a Pet Based Nuke power that the players CAN CONTROL! -
Quote:Massively excellent thread, Bill! My original suggestion regarding Photon Seekers was to shorten the recharge to 90 seconds and have each give a low radius 20% damage buff aoe effect upon exploding that lasts for 30 seconds.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Tossing this out for consideration:
Change photon seekers into a two part (or two stage) pet.
Part one maintains the "mini nuke" status. However, instead of three seekers, it's one. (Alternately, it's visually three, spreading out into a fixed area - I'm not sure how doable this is with the system.) What we'll basically have here... is the Omega Maneuver from Crab Spiders. It taunts things in an area, draws them in and explodes.
This fits a few points:
1. Still a pet. Current slotting is not invalidated.
2. Still a mini-nuke. Current use is not invalidated.
3. Draws aggro. As mentioned in the last post, dealing with EE, one of their benefits is that they CAN draw aggro away from the warshade as well as contribute damage. This is a survivability benefit.
4. Since it draws aggro to IT via taunt, it can ignore the often wonky pet AI. It doesn't have to find an enemy to float at and risk looking like outsize dandruff if it decides not to explode.
This handles several issues with photon seekers - but it misses one where the Warshade has a benefit. Namely, the ongoing damage of multiple seekers. This is where "part 2" comes in.
When the main Seeker body explodes, it spawns a new pet. This pet has (say) a minute to 90 second lifespan, and acts like an Extracted Essence, adding ranged damage. In addition (and as part of the tradeoff for the short life,) either as it exists or when it expires, it buffs the team (including the casing Peacebringer) - damage, defense, no I don't know what just yet, but it provides a buff.
Why the short life? Because we can cast it regardless of environment. I believe the Warshades deserve the longer-lived Essences as they can't just summon one on command (recharge aside) - they must use a defeated enemy. That seems to be a fair tradeoff, to me. Plus, of course, the Peacebringer *does* get the front-loaded "mini-nuke," which the Warshade does not (relying on another power which, again, needs a defeated enemy for that effect.)
I think this would cover the current issues with Photon Seekers rather well, making it a more desirable power (and also helping address some peoples complaints, with the "secondary pet buff," that PBs "don't bring anything to a team." While the buff would be on and off, as well as somewhat later level, it would still be a plus.)
You know what? I like this better. The only thing I'd worry about (and it is a tiny, tiny worry) is that it appears to be giving you two pets for the price of one. It's justified and your logic is sound, but as an alternative to spawning a second pet you could give the exploding seekers a pbaoe ally damage buff that lasted for 90 seconds. (or an energy damage component added to attacks ala fiery embrace)
But I love, LOVE the omega maneuver idea! -
So I guess it's official now that the fix for the temp powers not working in trials bug has gone live: Ninja/Beast run working in forms was, in fact, a bug. (and not wai but just bugged with the temp powers)
A bug that the developers - in spite of having put all the other Kheld-specific bugs (like the shapeshifting bug) and issues on the long list of things to look at someday - felt imperative enough to go right in and fix nao.
Sigh. -
Quote:I hate the animation time too. But don't switch from dwarf to nova to finish off runners. drop to human and use gleaming blast or stay in form and use taunt to bring them back. Or focus on someone else. They'll be back.Originally Posted by Jibikao
1. Not only when you change from Nova/Dwarf to Human you lose all the human toggles, you also suffer from what seems like 3-4s "delay" from each "change". This is HIGHLY annoying because it makes me not want to change from Dwarf to Nova to take advantage of the 'blaster' form to finish off runners. If it takes that long, I might as well chase the target.
Here's how I usually use Photon Seekers, if it helps:Quote:2. Photon Seekers SUCKs! This is actually THE power that made me want to level a PB to 32. It sounds pretty good on paper and I was really curious how it works. Well, I really don't understand all the restrictions they set on this power. This is probably the most unique power in Peacebringer. First, it has very long recharge at 300s. Second, you can't cast it with a "white circle", so you can't really cast them to take alpha strike for the team like the Seekers in /Trap. Third, if you cast them and then you run into battle, they seem to hit the target(s) that are closest to them which can be very wasteful because they could be only hitting minions. T_T
In Dwarf, I'll footstomp and gobble a break free and a purple or two. Then I drop to human form while they're getting back up and hit build-up and photon seekers. WHILE PHOTON SEEKERS IS ANIMATING I'll cue up dawn strike. Seekers do their damage and send foes flying, and Dawn Strike hits them while they're still in the air and finishes them off. Take a blue inspiration, pop conserve power and you're off and running to the next spawn.
But yes. Photon Seekers SUCKS! and should be fixed.
I responded in another thread to you what I'd advise: fire off your aoes in nova to soften the spawn first, then drop to human or dwarf to heal. If Photon Seekers are needed, do as I described above.Quote:So I tried to do this. I run in as Dwarf, kill all the minions/lieuts and once there's only one boss left, I get rid of Dwarf form and quickly use Seekers and then change back to Dwarf again. Well, let's just say I almost killed myself doing that because there is casting delay (about 5-6s by the time I get back to Dwarf) and human form is physically weak without any shields (since all the shield toggles are off when you change forms).
Hope that helps! -
Quote:Technically, when you're talking about any build that includes both nova and dwarf, you're talking about a triform build, since human form is required. Even a build like yours that hardly ever uses human is still a triform. (Memphis bill calls that "the alien" build in his guide, I think)Originally Posted by Jibikao
One question. What's the benefit of Tri-form? I see you either go with Human/Dwarf or Nova/Dwarf.
The OP picked and slotted most of the human attack powers already. Nova form has its use when you are lower level but once you have set bonuses to offset endurance cost, isn't Human form a superior version of Nova? You also get access to Combat Hover and you are way more flexible and have way better resistance? Am I missing something here? It is cool to have a flying Squid sometimes.
With just 3-slotted Stamina, both Nova and Dwarf don't seem to have any endurance problem at all. Only Human form needs more +endurance.
For my part, whenever I refer to a dual form, it's ALWAYS one of the forms and human form, and when I refer to triform it's ALWAYS a build that takes both nova and dwarf.
(on a side note, you might see a build that tries to slot for attack chains in all three forms with the intent of using light form as a "fourth" form and see it called a "quad-form" peacebringer. Technically it's still a triform, but since I like the name I also use it to make a distinction between Bill's "alien" and one that uses all three equally)
However, the spirit of your question is still the same, since I believe the issue you're having is mainly with Nova's damage output.
First, let me apologize for not being clearer in my damage comparisons between the peacebringer and the warshade, because I'm pretty sure your problem started with that thread.
If you'll look at the spreadsheet again, you might want to take note that single target damage is separated from aoe damage. The part you've seen where human deals almost as much damage as nova is the single target portion of the damage potential.
Here's the final numbers for single targets:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
But look at the final numbers for groups:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 156.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 240.7
See the difference? Nova form is for large groups of foes. Use Nova to kill off the minions in the first three seconds of the fight, then drop to human or dwarf to heal and finish off the lts. If you start a fight in human, you're going to be limiting your damage mainly to a single mob while the others get free shots at you.
Hmm... here's a way to think of it. If you're going to attack a hydra (you know - seven headed snake, seven simultaneous bites) are you going to be better off focusing all your damage one head at a time, or damaging all seven heads at once for roughly equal amounts of damage.
On a peacebringer, you can damage all seven heads for roughly equal amounts of damage by going Nova. Human form just can't compete with that. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Sir_Troller
Love the whole breakdown you did about the differences between WS & PB. Good stuff. But I'll disagree with you on just these two powers being changed and that being somewhat acceptable. I'd like more synergy with my PB. A WS has Inky Aspect and Gravatic Emenation that compliments each other, Mires in different forms, Stygian Circle that acts as clean up, and a few others that work cohesively together.
To me, a PB feels choppy. Like their powers are at odds with each other and keep them from being effective. Fixing just Light Form and Proton Seekers will help, but they'll still feel clunky. I'd like a Build Up that works more like Fiery Embrace that flows into forms, Knowdowns instead of Knockbacks (where applicable like Solar Flare). They need to make a PB flow better into their Forms and attacks as opposed to being as jerky as they are now.
I love my PB, it's been my Main since I got him and he's Purpled out and Incarnated, but he feels painful to use as opposed to all the other ATs because of of lack of flow, where other AT with issued had holes. But it won't stop me from playing my PB because as I said, I like the concept way to much even if it's clunky so I can't just beat feet until the fix them.
I should clarify. Fixing photon seekers and light form will go a long way towards addressing the disparity in damage and survivability between warshades and peacebringers.
But you're quite right: It won't make peacebringers a well-designed archetype. Quite frankly I've given up on asking for more.