Siolfir

The numbers change once you add slotting (or, for that matter, any other damage buff).

Using the really simplified damage formula: (base damage + damage buffs) * AT mod * resistance affects = final damage

Without slotting:
Tanker: (1) * 0.8 = 0.8 damage
Brute: (1 + x) * 0.75 = 0.8 damage; (0.8 / 0.75) - 1 = x; x = 6.7%
So unslotted and with no +damage buffs it's 4% Fury to exceed Tanker damage.


Scale 1 attack, 100% slotting:
Tanker: (1 + 1) * 0.8 = 1.6 damage
Brute: (1 + 1 + x) * 0.75 = 1.6 damage; 1.6 / 0.75 = 2 + x; x = 0.133
To exceed Tanker damage once the attack is slotted, a Brute needs 7% Fury.


With Bruising:
Tanker: (1 + 1) * 0.8 * 1.2 = 1.92
Brute: (1 + 1 + x) * 0.75 = 1.92; (1.92 / 0.75) - 2 = x; x = 0.56
So a Brute needs 28% Fury to equal a Tanker's damage once you account for Bruising.

Not hard to do - it's 2-3 consecutive attacks - but it's a bit more than 4%.

Not unless you're accounting for Tankers having more AoE attacks and persistent damage buffs. The post assumed identical modifiers for Tankers and Stalkers, then gave Tankers bruising to move them past. That's not really what's there, though.

Tanker: 0.8 modifier, 20% resistance debuff. (1.2) * (0.8) = 0.96 effective modifier assuming they use their tier 1 attack.
Stalker: 1.0 modifier. Regardless of the attack they use.

On an AT-by-AT comparison, assuming identical attack chains and ignoring damage auras and/or AAO, Rage, Soul Drain, Blinding Feint, etc., the Stalker does slightly more damage.

Stalkers have a melee modifier of 1.0 already, and they have the same hit points as Blasters - both base, and cap. Yes, that's the same cap as Defenders and Corruptors, but neither of those has the same base hit points - even with each other, since Corruptors have a few more hp than Defenders - and there's another AT that identically matches what Stalkers get, so it's a better comparison.

Nah. It's useful for when you're higher level than things. Faster street hunting - on the few times I have to bother, usually for accolades - is nice.

Hm, good catch. I thought it was lowered to 675% instead of +675%, though - I was remembering the base, just thought the cap was lowered much more than it really was. Shows how often I play anymore.

*shrug* I'm not arguing about whether or not more hp means more survivability or not; what I'm suggesting is that once you reach the survivability point where the mobs die before you in 99.999% of the in-game situations - which most well-built DM/SD Scrappers can achieve - then anything beyond that is completely irrelevant in discussing anything beyond corner cases.

For what it's worth, I was using the whole "fewer hp/lower hp cap" to push for Stalker changes a while back. I think I get the argument.

It'd be nice if the Placate magnitude was high enough to affect EBs - it works like any other mez, albeit one not affected by PToD, and it's only mag 4. Assuming you've got sufficient DPS to eventually wear them down, it can be easier to survive against an AV than the downgraded EB version, just because you can actually use Placate. Then again, if you just pop a lot of reds and hit the damage cap, you can tear through EB hit points fast enough that it often doesn't become an issue.

On top of the magnitude issue, while most debuffs that Stalker primaries have are ignored and don't remove the Placate from the affected mob, some cause it to "break".

Anything past "3 Allies" on your chart is the same as with 3 due to the max target count.

I'll probably never pick Burnout up, but a double-Sleet, double-Heat Loss, double Blizzard could be really amusing on an Ice/Cold Corruptor. -120% resistance before Achilles' procs boosting twin Blizzards? Yeah, I can see only needing that once every 30 minutes (and wanting it every 30 seconds).

Long-Range Teleport could be really useful if it really means "any zone you can access normally" instead of "any zone that's on a ferry/train stop"; I'd imagine it would shave a lot of time off of Shard TFs. If it's just the ferry/train zones I'll never end up with it, though.

The value of Spring Attack depends entirely on the numbers, but an AOE tele-attack in a power pool - especially the one I almost always end up in at least for Combat Jumping anyway - could be fun.

Afterburner still just seems "meh" compared to the others.

Also, are Khelds getting Afterburner and LRT added to their inherents, or is it safe to assume that they're left out in the cold again?

Highlighted portion is false, and was pointed out as false earlier in the thread.

So, since some people still don't get it...

HEALS ARE NOT A PERCENTAGE OF MAX HIT POINTS.

Regeneration is affected by your current max hp. Heals are not. The modifier does not change based on your hit points. It is based solely on your AT.

Thank you. That is all.

And any one of your Dominators can take problematic mobs out of the fight in less time than the Stalker. It just usually involves a control instead of burst damage.

I'm not going to try to defend the statement that more hit points is a liability in any other case, but the example was in dealing with the one-shot code. This situation is so rare that it really does break the rules and you're better off hitting your max hp at a lower number.

Hypothetical example:

1800 hp Brute.
1500 hp Scrapper.
1100 hp Corruptor.

Some autohit attack deals 2000 damage of an unresisted type. It'll recharge in 10 seconds.

One shot code kicks in, leaving all at 1 hp.

Any further attacks coming in cause the character to die. None of the characters have the max hp to survive getting hit by the attack at anything less than their hp cap. At the hp cap, they live at 1 hp.

What was being said was that in this case, the character that can get to the cap earliest is the "safest". The Corruptor needs to get 1099 hp back in 10 seconds, thus needing the least amount of healing and/or regen to hit the cap. The Scrapper needs to get 1499 hp back, and the Brute 1799.

Is that a normal environment for the game? Hell, no! But is it a rare and cherry-picked case where having lower max hp actually means it's easier to survive? Sure.

As a side note, "sufficient" survivability is all that's needed to take and hold aggro for a team. Most of the /SD Scrappers I've seen have plenty to run at +4/x8, and AAO means that they hold aggro just as well as the Brutes. Those observations drastically affect my feelings on the set for Brutes - who in general I prefer to Scrappers, which are preferable to Tankers. Just not for Shield Defense.

Nitpick: regen is increased, the value of the heal from Siphon does not. It's larger for Brutes based on their hp modifier, but not based on whatever max hp you manage to get out of the build - a level 50 Scrapper at the hp cap will have the same heal as a level 50 Scrapper without any +hp powers, set bonuses, or accolades.

And again, a Tanker will have a larger heal value and more survivability, and will be able to build for much better recharge while still maintaining softcapped defense values.

If you want damage, go Scrapper. If you want survivability, go Tanker. If you want to go with a different secondary, go Brute.

The Scrapper can exceed what Brute Shield Charge does at its damage cap (400.4) with 100% slotting and around 66% extra +dam. That's almost a joke to hit with AAO and/or Soul Drain.

I mentioned Tankers because they'll have even more hit points than the Brute, more resistance numbers, and are much easier to softcap. My SD/SS Tanker is routinely damage-capped with stacked Rage, AAO, and slotting, and Tankers get Brute Patron Pools and have higher base damage - which affects Shield Charge.

The reasons to want Shield Defense - AAO and Shield Charge - are minimalized by the Brute AT's lower base damage, the permanent +damage that Fury provides giving a lower percentage boost in damage dealt compared to the other ATs, and the pet damage cap that Shield Charge has preventing Fury from boosting it into actually being comparable to the higher base damage the other ATs get.

Or, in other words, what I said before: there is no reason to make a Shield Brute, unless you simply don't like Scrappers or Tankers.

And this is from someone who prefers Brutes to either. The set's strengths just don't work as well for them as it does for Scrappers, Tankers, and - if they had it - would for Stalkers.

Here.

But essentially, yes: the higher -res numbers means more damage on the Defender for most of the fight. Even though Corruptors supposedly do more damage.

Yeah, tell me about it. I still have seven or eight 50s that I haven't put IOs on from the last double XP weekend, and about a dozen that I just didn't feel like using a respec to get inherent fitness on.

Needless to say, I didn't mind this double XP being pushed back at all... without incarnate xp being doubled and my bases already set up, the only thing it would be is double inf on drops and a chance to get the last 12-13 levels on the 3 non-50s I have on my home server. Inf is generated much faster on the market, and I already have too many idle 50s!

Grats on yours tho!

Unless there are some unannounced changes for the AT coming in i21 - which I suppose is possible - the screencaps are simply another case of "don't believe what you read in the text descriptions". Solo, the Brute will probably do more.

Assuming 65% Fury, which is the number that Castle said he tried to tweak the gain/decay rate to leave maintainable, and each AT uses the same attack slotted for 100% damage:
Stalker: 1.0 (AT mod) * 2.0 (100% damage slotting) * 1.1 (10% solo critical rate) = 2.2
Brute: 0.75 (AT mod) * 3.3 (100% damage slotting + 130% from Fury) = 2.475

Just for giggles...
Scrapper: 1.125 (AT mod) * 2.0 (100% damage slotting) * 1.1 (10% Lt+ critical chance) = 2.475

Note that this is also assuming that the attack has a full critical: Energy Melee and Kinetic Melee both have heavy hitters that either don't, or only partially, critical.

<snipped due to incorrect damage cap value used - suffice it to say a Brute will outdamage a Stalker most of the time with a reasonable amount of Fury, and only additional teammates nearby helps the Stalker out>

I would expect Power Siphon to push Scrapper numbers well past what Stalkers can achieve - the +damage buffs are longer duration, you only need 3 of them stacked to go past Stalker Build Up's +80% damage, and they have higher base damage to start with. That's why I commented about Scrapper numbers blowing away the Stalker numbers - even with perma-BU - above.

That said, I didn't even bother to check the chain to see if it was "optimal", and it didn't contain any procs whatsoever. That's why I'd be curious to see if someone else has better numbers for Stalker KM.

Well, if the out-of-hide chance was tweaked at the same time that the from-hide chance was, then it might follow the same as all the other Stalker critical chances: 10% + 3%/teammate within 30', up to 31%. If it wasn't changed at the same time, then it was listed as a flat 20% chance for both Scrappers and Stalkers to recharge Power Siphon or Build Up respectively when it came out.

Of course, you could force it into working with Placate, but that adds animation time where you aren't actually doing damage and an impossible level of recharge while still using that same chain.

I'm fairly certain that Mid's still always counts the critical on the PPP and APP ranged attacks (and I'm not sure why it does, since it works for other things).

So yes, the damage numbers you see in-game and on City of Data are the ones you should look at. Stalkers don't do more damage than Blasters with those powers... although they do get a 100% critical rate on Fireball from Hide, unlike Ball Lightning's and Disruptor Blast's 50% or the no "from-Hidden" critical from anything in Body, Darkness, or Weapon Mastery.