Siberian_Gale

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Quality vs. quantity.

Some people want to have tougher fights with three whites.
Some people want to have tougher fights with twelve whites.

What's the difference? Why can't "minions" at level 30 be considered a challenge in groups of three? If they're appropriately scaled up with powers and, most importantly, XP, then it's really just a matter of preference.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about numbers as long as I'm having fun and levelling at a decent rate. Whether this is fighting an archvillain or even-con minions doesn't matter.

Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?

Minions should be thwompable in droves once you get up there, but the lieutenants and bosses shouldn't. That's my issue.

That said, Statesman's commentary at least proves that they are aware of the issue, understand some of the root causes, and can see why people aren't happy.

Every MMOG should be so lucky.

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You're right about the Devs--I admit it. I just think Statesman has swung WAAAYY to far to the wrong side of this issue. He should be saying, 2 +4 bosses is wrong for solo, but we might let a tank/scrapper handle 2 +2s... I don't think 3 minions should be a problem for a thirtieth level character. The best part of this game is the sense of a power increase you get. Statesman should pull back his numbers a bit... Because right now we certainly feel superheroic! Maybe not challenged enough, mind you, but definitely superheroic! It's the only part of this game that DOES make me feel superheroic on a regular basis...

Also, Foo, I can't help feeling this IS designed as a break. I cannot fathom how they would accomplish letting us level as we are against even cons without tripling their ep value... And I think they just won't do that.

I think the entire CoH community needs to push STRONGLY for Statesman to explain the specifics of this plan.

He says he doesn't care about how fast we level. But there's no way he's going to triple the experience we're earning for even level minions.

So at least my group will slow down dramatically. Becaues we regularly fight +3 and +4s.

And it takes, what, two thousand even level cons for some levels... But, hey, if they multiply the experience you earn by 1.5 that will only be 1300 or so!

Statesman does NOT get it. I disagree with Krunch on this in a major way. The one aspect of being superhuman in this game is that at some point the even con minions feel "puny" to you. And that's great. Because that's what a minion is. Super-agents, yes, but lts and bosses they are not.

How long did it take us to convince him that the tank didn't feel like a comic book tank? Why didn't they feel like a comic book tank fro the get go? Because the Devs are too focused on the MMORPG business and not thinking enough about the comic book aspects. It's not that they CAN'T do that (the just did it for tanks). It's that they AREN'T doing it enough. And clearly they are missing the point.

The Devs accidentally simalated a comic book. They had us fighing MOBs way more powerful than we were. That was great--indeed, it was ideal. A supergroup fighting villains that should be too tough but with teamwork they are able to triumph. And when we fought even level mobs we felt powerful.

And this is all about hunting--which isn't what I want to do at all. I want it to be about missions. And it would be perfectly easy to allow a mission slider to generate high cons for me and for my team.

There's NO logical reason why you can't say: for levels 1-10 3 minions, 1 minion + lt challenge for even con; for 11-20 the same numbers but +1 levels is what's "challenging; from 21-30, the number is +2; from 31-50, it becomes +3.

Those numbers can be made right. The adjustments can be made fair. Just make sure that's how missions spawn.

Otherwise, this will once again make teams highly restrictive. "What? He's 25? We're all 27s. That's too low! We can't sidekick him so get rid of him. He'll find a single level 27 minion a challenge and I can take 3!"

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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.

Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.

Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.

Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.

In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.

Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.

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OK, two +4 bosses is too many for soloing--but even con minions should NEVER be much of a challenge to a 38th level character. That destroys the feeling of finally becoming a true superhero. I'm a superhero--I should be in over my head. That's how the fights should become challenging. Increase the possible mission level spawns.

In fact, this was obviously what you were thinking earlier. You mentioned a mission difficult slider. You've commented on hunting higher level mobs for a challenge. There's nothing wrong with either of those ideas.

Furthermore, if you make a +4 MOB impossible then you destroy the 1-5 level group gap you thought was neccessary. So the range of players we can team with becomes once again more restrictive.

Also, I don't understand why a designer wouldn't WANT players hunting over their level. Hey, if I die fighting +3s I can't come to you and say, "this power isn't workign as well as it should!" Because you can always say, "Hey, we make it POSSIBLE for you to fight +3s because that's what you said you prefered over very beefed up mobs. If you hunt the higher levels and die, well, that's the breaks. Hunt even cons if you want to feel more powerful!"

Finally, if you're going to somehow do this I must ask: how? Because it seems to me there would have to be a blanket nerf over every character in the game. Or maybe making it so every scrapper can be two-shotted by even con minions (the blasters will just be unplayable).

Please come up with a new plan because this one will destroy the one aspect of the game that makes me feel superheroic: fighting very powerful cons.

Yes, this sounds like what I want! I certainly think a comic tanker should be holding back. One gorup of Hellions shouldn't be exactly like the next one (even if in game terms they are, from my character's perspective they are not).

Of course, in light of the fact that you're making fights focus on -1 to +1 cons, I guess we should ask if eveyr tanker and scrapper defense is going to be nerfed? Becasue how else could you manage to make such fights challenging to us? I don't want to see every villain and his brother propping Hurricanes...

I guess I just don't understand the -1 to +1 philosophy. Must be some kind of MMORPG thing. To me, it's extremely cool that an even level MOB isn't that challenging. That actually makes me feel superheroic. It demonstrates that I've clearly become more powerful.

The nice thing about this game is that the challenge DOESN'T quite increase with your power. So you actually DO feel more superheroic as you level. If all you an ever do--from level 1 to 50--is fight 3 even level cons you will not feel as if you are becoming truly powerful.

It makes much more sense to decrease the "purple patch" as characters level. Encourage us to fight more powerful MOBs. Give us a mission slider so we can increae the spawns and the difficulty (and ther rewards).

I'm a superhero. I should be fighting things much more powerful than me--and need excellent teamwork to succeed.

Bah! If SS functioned like Axe this thread probably would have never been born. There might have been a "take knockback out of superstrength" thread, of course...

I never quite agree with balance arguments--especially when someone tells me that won't work in MMORPG. RPGs were only board in the 70's, dang it. We don't know what really works in that genre yet. How can we tell what works in MMORPG? They're just too young..

Wow, I didn't realize these kinds of missions were spawning so low. I figured the higher cons would be +0 through level 10--and only then would they get cute and start spawning +1s. This can't be a good thing...

Just curious: Anybody planning to hunt the hollows? It seems like a place I will be avoiding for the duration of the game. Unless, of course, I'm an empathy Defender looking for a big group. Hurricane isn't a power you should encounter when you're low level...

Now, very few players want a comic book tank more than me. But don't you think we should give Statesman a chance to show us his "hulk-like" power? Knockout blow was such a major addition for me I've been stunned into relative silence.

Since Statesman said no to the SS/Inv scrapper, we really can't talk about that right now. Have to deal with what they WILL give us. Hey, they could still do the job right. It's much better late than never...

Now, I actually agree that minions in this game are all superhuman. That includes crey "scientists". The Crey are almost certainly augmented in one fashion or another--whether by cybernetics, special costumes, or what have you. Skulls are most definitely wielding ancient magic in one way or another. We can assume they undergo a ritual that increases their power.

I don't know enough about the warriors to comment on what gives them powers--but I doubt they are ordinary 20th level dudes. In fact, they can't be. They can jump as high as we can; and that's superhuman.

However, I very much agree with Liquid otherwise.

Knockback was an either/or situation. Either everyone has it--or no one does. Becuase if you give knockback to just a few characters, those characters will be at a disadvantage. Knockback demands some very high speed movement powers for melee characers (or giving everyone good ranged attacks). If every AoE blast knocked evreyone all over the map, well, AoE attacks wouldn't be so dangerous. And that would be comic book like. Unfortunately, the devs didn't go this route.

What the did do was make me almost HAVE to be immobile as a Inv/SS tank. And that made the problem of knockback a real killer. Plus, the idea of being an "aggro magnet" and having things fly away from you--and thus out of your ability to do control them--was crazy.

It's not our fault that tanks in this game aren't like comic books. It's the decision of the devs to make a "meat shield" in this game. The two ideas aren't compatible. So a compromise had to be reached--and perhaps it has been reached.

Most SS Tankers would most definitely stop and grab a telephone post. I don't care if it takes me two minutes. As long as I can can hold aggro, I am swinging that damn telephone pole!

Now, they could have left knockback in...

If they had made it so that whatever was knocked back immeditally got up and closed to within melee range of the tanker.

Because the DPS didn't matter to me. I'll happily give DPS to scrappers. It's the power of the punch that is important to the feel of the character. Knockback helped that. And it's gone--replaced with actual in game power. I have to live with that because it's good for the team.

Now, Statesman has another plan. I'm not keen on the "Hulk-like" thing--but maybe they can do it in such a way that you don't ahve to say your character is getting "angry". I'm certainly keen on getting slow, hard punches anyway we can.

Because I do want comic book tanks. I just want them within the (sadly but naturally) flawed fabric of this game.

I'm bet eventually you'll be able to pick your own animation. So hopefully it will only be a temporary problem.

Just try and pretend that that your tanks is goofing around while summoning up their full power!

Holy cow, Volante! So THAT'S what I've been missing. Knockout Blow is now the BOMB. I love it. I actually 1 shotted a minion (think i had to swallow a rage, but still)... Suddenly, I feel considerably more super.

Thanks Devs!

The Mob Squad.