Shadowe

Ahem

At what point of the load process does this happen?

If it's after you enter your password, check that your shortcut and game executable connect to the EU version of the game (there are a LOT of posts on this forum about how to do that - Here, for example).

If it's after you select a server, I'm a bit stuck, and you'll need to wait to hear from support - unless someone else can come up with an answer.

The "Paragon Entertainment Networked Instanced Superhero" Game? Sure, they'd have to rename the studio again... but there would be a LOT more people interested, I think.

Just in general terms, I read a blog a while ago (can't seem to find it, now, unfortunately), where someone posted an economic study of the CoH market system, utilising economic theory to predict the outcome of certain events.

One interesting one was that merging the Hero and Villain markets would actually tend to drive prices up.

Anyway, all that aside: The upshot of it was that because the act of earning Inf is also the same act that creates goods (salvage and recipes), the CoH market prices will tend to rise over time - it's just the rate at which it happens that is affected by farmers. Farming accelerates the rate at which influence is created in the game world (and there are very few ways in which influence is removed once it is gained), and accelerates the overall trend of increasing prices.

The only way around this (apparently, and I'm paraphrasing, of course) is for artificial injection of goods onto the market (causing a market glut and therefore driving prices down) or to stabilise the amount of influence in the market by creating more of the so-called "influence-sinks".

Anyway, I think this is a fascinating subject, and I might go nerdy with it and start to actually study it.

The MA System is one of CoH's flagship innovations - it is highly unlikely that it will be pulled wholesale.

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Now that I will probably loose access to my MM and cannot risk even using the AE system as all the missions that I have made involved custom bosses and Lt's only with no minions and gave great xp.

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Remove the word "probably" and replace it with "might, maybe, perhaps, if customer services really do slam down hard, which they might not". And if you're nervous about losing arc slots... just unpublish those missions. Problem solved.

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As far as I'm concerned, I don't like this any more than the next guy (I rarely farmed in 5 years of game play) but the way MAs laid out directly lends it self to just that.

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Yes, it does.

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It really isn't enough for a DEV to say,please don't do that.

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If the developers of the game can't define what is and is not acceptable behaviour/practice in the game, who can?

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Which, by the way, they havent done till now, even though they knew these exploits were going to happen.

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Very true.

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Asking teenagers to abide by the "spirit" of the game and be good boys (girls) is plain niave. Not to mention that , with all the debt cuts and XP curves in place and inventions costing millions each, it seems to me that the devs themselves have created this culture.

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To a certain extent, yes. On the other hand, one of the keys to the MMO experience as a whole is a sense of achievement. I struggle to comprehend anyone actually valuing something that they have not had to work for... so anyone being hit by the sanctions that the developers have decided to impose is not losing something that could even remotely be called "a labour of love" or "something I put a lot of effort into". We could debate (fruitlessly) the impact of the chosen action, but at the end of the day, it boils down to this: Until someone gets banned as a result of this, there is no moral high horse to climb up onto in outrage at the developers' actions... because they simply haven't taken any, yet. They've told us the line, now. If it is broken, now, then the person doing the breaking only has themselves to blame for the consequences, and, IMO, since they cannot value something gained without effort, then losing it should cause them no pain.

It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is, and try to play fairly and equitably. The developers make the rules, we don't. But until the devlopers actually do come the heavy (which, I'll admit, they have said they may in extreme cases - not even a guarantee!), is there any point moaning that they have made their position on the matter clear?

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Exploiting something is not necessarily an exploit.

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Correct. However, in the context of an MMO... the developers get to define what is and is not an exploit.

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Now admitedly it would have been nice if there had been some variety in the mob types and I had up till positrons statement been tempted to create a series of maps filled with my favorit spawns so i could go on a smash happy rampage. But now i'm not so sure as it may get labeled as a exploit and get loose me a mission slot.

so yes dependant on my mood i find farming fun.

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To be honest, that sounds like a giggle, actually. And the only way it would fall foul of the "exploit" issue is if there's nothing challenging included in your list. Sure, that's rather subjective, but just make sure you include some nasty lieuts and bosses in there and it should be fine.

Answer to the original question:

Yes, if you enjoy repetitive action, non-stop for hours at a time.

If you enjoy a lot of variety, like stories, or see a map for the third time in a row with identical mission goals that make you wince... not so much.

My idea of fun is seeing how a team handles a variety of enemies, how they mesh together as a group, and making snarky comments back and forth. Running the same map, over and over, trawling the same route through it, defeating the same mob with a level of efficiency that means it's never going to be a challenge... I can barely conceive of something more dull. And the end result doesn't seem worth it, to me: A bit of influence, earned a bit faster than if I'd been running regular missions, but without the fun of the unknown.

If people want to farm, that's their business. No skin off my nose, and I can see that there are certain potential advantages to the rest of us as a result, but I snort in amusement when people who are farmers claim that they do it because the game presents no challenge to them any longer. My answer to that is that perhaps they should try playing a different part of the game, or even a different style of play? Farm Malta or Carnies on a melee toon without mez protection running. Crank the game up to Invincible and duo "A Hero's Hero" with two Blasters. Pretend, just for a little while, that you really are your character, and make stupid comic-esque statements like "Halt, evildoers!" every time you meet a spawn on a map, and encourage your team to do the same - those weird roleplayer types must get some fun out of that sort of thing, right? Create "broken" characters that you only slot with drops, and you set yourself a rule that if you can slot it, you must slot it. Play. A game is not serious business, and if you're a good sport, the game can be a lot of fun, even if your character is potentially fatally flawed.

Break the mold! No one play-style is better than the others, and the more of them you try, the longer your period of enjoyment in the game is likely to be.

So, farming is fun, yes. But there are a hell of a lot of other things to do in-game that are also fun, and anyone who claims that they "have to farm" - for any reason - is deluding themselves.

Razor, I don't think anyone is arguing that farming is an exploit. Obviously it's not, in and of itself. Even my post above indicates that if a farming team are earning at a rate approximately on a par with a peak-efficiency "normal" team (yes, even exceeding by a margin), then no one can say that they're doing anything wrong.

The problem is XP/Minute played, not how it is earned.

To be blunt about it, if your rate of XP/min exceeds a certain level, known only to the devs (at a rough guess, two standard deviations from the desired XP/min rate, so a computer can crunch the numbers for them - at least that's how I'd do it), then you are, to use a colloquialism, taking the p*ss. Expect action from the devs. We can argue the degree of that action 'til the cows come home, but it's pointless.

Farming is not an exploit. Utilising an unintended feature of something in the game to vastly (two standard deviations would mean that the bottom 97.8% of XP earning rate is within acceptable tolerances, btw) exceed the desired XP/min rate, on the other hand, is. If the only way to do that is by farming, then it makes sense to hit farming with the naughty-stick.

The simple definition of an exploit in this context is "utilising an in-game effect or bug that gives someone an advantage over other people".

At the end of the day, the developers get to decide what constitutes that.

In general terms, though, exploits include the following:

Bugged code that allows characters to do things that weren't intended (the Arena Confuse bug)

Code that unscrupulous individuals can use to commit virtual theft (Coalition Salvage theft)

Utilisation of a feature's weaknesses to exceed normal advancement rates (MA RCO farming)

Not wanting to drag it onto the topic that shall not be discussed, but the theory goes like this:

Team A are an efficient, well-oiled mishing machine. They spend their time doing normal missions. They do them well, they do them fast, and they earn rewards at a steady rate, which I will call X.

Team B are an average PuG. They don't act well together, often interfere with each other, but have discovered a mission that is so insanely easy and simple to farm with that they stick to it like glue, and earn rewards (XP/Inf/Prestige/Drops) at a rate Y.

IF Y > X THEN Team B are exploiting a weakness.

IF Y [u]<[u] X THEN no problem exists

I know for a fact that I have not received feedback from a US based player who sent it to me, and I believe that there is a US player with the same global as me.

I think the system seems to be looking "same continent" first and sending the message, then if that fails it looks globally.

Yes, it should be able to link to the correct person, since I don't see another person's arcs in my personal arc-list.

Oh, and welcome to the forum...

Welcome to the forum, JF!

That was a very well constructed and thought out post, and I agree with almost everything you said in it.

The only thing I disagree with is where you state that Posi has said they will 'fiddle' with characters.

The use of the word "may" gets him off that particular hook.

Wait and see, I say!

Something needed to be done, and a firm line needed to be taken, but anyone who ragequits (not you specifically) because Posi said "may" is a little daft from my perspective.

As I understand it, the biggest objections to this are as follows:

1) That we are not being told the criteria that may result in sanctions against players.

2) That the devs released content into the game that was ripe for exploitation and waited until a few weeks down the line before taking significant action against said exploitation. (Please note: I consider the argument "it was in the game already, so the devs obviously wanted it to happen, you can't punish me now!" to be a spurious argument on par with "I was able to steal all of the stored salvage from that Coalitioned SG, so the devs obviously wanted it to happen, you can't punish me now!")

If I have this wrong, please correct me.

However, assuming I'm not wrong, here are my responses:

1) The devs and Customer Services have never disclosed the specific criteria that may result in sanctions against players. Why should they start now? They would be opening the floodgates for long-fogotten complaints and matters, and ramp up their workload by an insane amount.

2) It's been said a million times (hyperbole intended): Nobody forced anyone to PL using MA. The devs stated at I14 release that they would come down on anyone who chose to "gain a statistical advantage" (for the record, that means that if you demonstrably have higher bonuses (from enhancements and set bonuses) for less time spent in game earning inf than "the average character", based on a set of criteria that we, the players, will never get to see). A few extra points on this matter - there is no evidence that the devs will penalise people for non-MA PLing; simply playing a farm arc a time or two will not produce the same statistical advantage as has been seen in the MA; you will have opportunity to appeal, but they have the evidence. People who played farming arcs will be scrutinised, for sure, but until or unless the devs actually do something to the characters, it's not worth getting your panties in a twist about.

Right now the mission statement is simple: The devs are going to cull farming arcs. Big time. If I had a farm arc up right now, I'd unpublish it right away to ensure the slot doesn't get locked. Then they will get down to individual character cases, but until they do, is it really that much of a bother? For all we know, nobody who has posted here will be affected.

Lost one of my arcs thanks to the Crey Cloning Lab going... Generic Lab Map just doesn't cut the mustard.

Okay, screw the real-world analogies, then.

Devs introduced code that allows someone to be Confused in the Arena, leave the Arena and then attack other characters outside the Arena as if PvP were active in zones.

In other words - the devs made a mistake.

Do Customer Services have a right to ban a player who takes advantage of that mistake, knowing full well that the developers did not intend that activity with their code?

Everyone who is arguing with Posi's announcement is saying "No!" to that question.

I think the thing that a lot of people are missing here is that as far as the arcs are concerned, the devs are operating on a "3 strikes and you're out" basis.

They have not once said that they'll ban each and every person who farmed something using MA.

What they have said is that they have the option to remove rewards (badges, XP, Inf, Prestige, tickets) from people they believe have abused the system (and believe me, they can tell who has played what mission, how long they were in it for, and what rewards they got for it).

They have also said that they may introduce the banhammer on people who have taken it a step too far.

I'll stand up and admit that I took a look at a couple of farming missions. One was a lot of fun, actually, and I didn't report that one. If the devs remove the inf/tickets I gained from that mission, that's okay by me. The other mission was boring as all hell, and I wouldn't touch it again with a barge pole, and I don't care if they strip me of the badges I gained in it, either.

The point is that if someone bought the game just after I14 and now has an account full of level 50 toons, how can anyone view that as anything other than a laughable state of affairs?

And it is. It's laughable.

Yes, the developers made an error. They are quite within their rights to take corrective action on that error.

Sure, the degree of corrective action can be debated, but Positron has gone on record as saying that the developers are now operating on a "zero tolerance" approach to abuses of the system.

They have not said that they will come down like the wrath of the Almighty on everyone who has farmed in MA. Frankly, they'd be foolish to even try. They are holding the ultimate threat over our heads by saying "play nice, boys and girls, or we'll ban your account. Use the MA for its intended purpose, which is to tell stories, not as a PLing tool to level up faster than ever before."

I suspect that there will be the following procedures followed (or something a lot like them):

1) Farming arcs useable for PLing will be locked out. 3 strikes and you're out.

2) Anyone whose sole or primary activity since I14 has been using those or any other arcs to PL their own or any other toons will get a slap on the wrist. Perhaps a short ban.

3) Anyone who used the locked out farming arcs to gain things may lose them (though if, as Posi says, some badges are simply being removed from the game, it's far more likely that the devs will take no further steps beyond that). There may also be removal of some tickets/Inf/Prestige.

4) Anyone who from now on creates or utilises an arc for PLing purposes, outside the rates at which characters could level in the game prior to I14 will, on the first offence, have the character locked for a predetermined period of time. On a second offence will have the character deleted. On a third offence will be banned.

At every step of the way Customer Services will be contactable, and appeals may be made.

It is far easier for them to take harsh action in the first instance, and then relax their decision later, and that is the route they should take.

Yes, they should have done things differently with MA. I don't disagree with that at all. But this is simply corrective action, to put the game back to where it is meant to be.

To anyone saying that the developers should not remove rewards already gained, though, here's a little example my darling wife came up with:

"The Great Train Robbers should not have a legal requirement to return the stolen gold". That's what you're saying. You're saying that because the security wasn't as tight as it should have been, anyone who took advantage of that fact has a right to what they gained as a result. And that, my dear friends, is utter bunkum. Even if the devs knew there were huge holes in Architect, that does not give anyone the "right" to take advantage of those holes. That's the definition of an exploit. It's like saying that the devs don't have a right to ban people for things they did in the past... I remember the old Arena Confuse bug far too well to feel comfortable with that stance. Several toons (including my main, none of whom were higher than L38) got Inferno'd by a L50 Fire Blaster, who subsequently got banned (short term, I believe) for griefing. But by the time the punishment hit the player, it was something he had done, not something he was doing... does that mean he has no responsibility and the devs have no right to ban him?

Of course they do. This is exactly the same policy - the right to punish players for actions they have taken in the past.

If you don't like it... you are always free to take your business elsewhere.

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ok, all of you that didn't like the farms:
How many of you used that red little button, complaining about it?

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Me. Every time I came across a thinly disguised farming arc.

My wife. Every time she came across a thinly disguised farming arc.

And the developers' response is... this.

Result, I say.

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Leif_Roar~Not as such, but there is this bit:

"You agree that NC Interactive may take whatever steps it deems necessary to abridge, or prevent behavior of any sort on the Service in its sole discretion, without notice to you."

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And I reserve the right to cancel my subscriptions, yes all 4 of them if I feel that their rules and regulations are unjust and the issue is their own fault

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Bye!

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Golden Girl~But there was a warning in the MA patch notes:

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NCsoft reserves the right to ban any missions that contain any exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages. Players and/or "authors" that advertise exploitable missions through our forums, in-game chat system or through the Mission Architect system may be banned from the Mission Architect System or may have their game account closed.

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Yes deleting arcs that they deem abusive is fine, that is correcting something they deem as abusive and issuing the user with a warning, stripping rewards that have already been gained is out of order!

That would be like giving your employees a bonus for hitting a target, and then taking it back because too many of them hit it. You would be sitting in that office on your own.!!! Are you listening posi!!!

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So, as I read this, I see that you believe that using in-game exploits is entirely appropriate and correct, despite clicking "I Agree" to an EULA that says you won't do it? I think removing awards that have been inappropriately gained is entirely correct.

But don't let that stop you leaving, if you want to go.

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I want to know on what grounds someone would loose access to a character.
How do they determine it?

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At NC's discretion.

They will have guidelines, sure, but they'll never tell us what they are, and there looks to be an appeals process in place for arcs, so there's bound to be an appeals process in place for characters, too.

The developers always said that the MA was for all the story writers out there. It was inevitable that they would come down hard on PLing abuses.

I may think that Posi could do with a little more positivity in his little spin-half lepton self, but this is exactly what MA needs to allow the stories to come to the fore.

Bravo.

Alright, I'm going to stop posting on this now.

But this is awesome.

I'm quite pleased to note that Posi said that people "may lose benefits they have gained - leading up to and perhaps including losing access to the characters power-leveled in this fashion."

A) It's not quite as harsh as it could be.

B) Losing access to the characters isn't the same as having them deleted (think about it...)

Awesome.

I like it.

And anyone who disagrees... go read the EULA. NC can do this.

((Hi, Greasy, welcome to the game and the forum! This is really the wrong place for a welcome post, so I'd suggest popping something in the "New Players" part of the forum, but for now, here's a couple of answers for you -

Global Name - This defaults to the name of the first character you created in City of... (you will have a token to change it, accessible through the Menu... somewhere) with @ in front of it. So, I'm @Shadowe

Can be contacted: Well, I'd guess by /tells in game, global /tells, through the forum and by in-game email - I suggest ensuring that your Chat Options (Menu > Options > General) allow /tells from both Hero and Villain factions.

Hope to see you in-game!))

(Part bump, part reply)

Thanks, WW. I haven't giggled that much in a while. It's always lovely to hear from you (any of you, actually, but you in particular because you're OMGAWESOMESPECIALFANTASTICANDWELOVEYOU!) and to hear your insanely amusing recollections and anecdotes.

Still loving the game, still loving your dialogue. We want moar!

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There was a time when leaving posts were banned. Presumably that time has passed along with any other semblance of customer service.

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That actually lasted all of 24 hours, and happened because some leavers at the time were really spitting vitriol at the game and the developers. Then it was pointed out by everyone here that actually the community is a big part of what makes this game great, so the ability to say goodbye is a good thing, and GR agreed, lifting that ban... within a day.

At the end of the day, if people want to say goodbye, let them. If you hate them, ignore them. If you think they're trying to make a sympathy call, that's your prerogative.

I wrote a blog post utterly slating the I15 announcement. There's a link to it in one of those other threads. The reason for my emotional response is the same as that from many of those who are leaving. I'm not planning on leaving any time soon, but I'm probably going to close one of my accounts.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to several statements from the devs a while back that offered general detail on what the next "couple of issues" (which were I13 and I14) were going to do. I don't remember the exact words, but the phrases used were something along the lines of "innovative new system in the first one, and a huge storyline issue for the second". Then I13 got split into I13 (small) and I14 (pretty damn huge, really). Which, if they stuck to that plan, meant that I15 was the "huge storyline issue"... and it hasn't been delivered. Not only has it not been delivered, but there has been no indication from the devs about why.

If Issue 15: Anniversary is so small because they just wanted an issue out for the anniversary of the game, and Issue 16 is due to follow swiftly, with the "big storyline" advancements, then I'd be utterly happy, and a lot of the people leaving would be, too.

As it is, it feels like the devs have lied. Soon™ doesn't cut it when soon™ never seems to arrive. Perhaps I'm a little more patient than some other players, because I don't plan on leaving, because I still enjoy the game, I still love playing it... but I would really like to see that "big storyline" issue arrive. And it hasn't arrived when the devs said it would. Maybe they don't owe us an explanation, but it would be nice to get one. That's all we wanted from Positron's 5th Anniversary announcement, really, but we didn't get it. Some of us are leaving, because the delays and lack of information have sucked some enjoyment out of the game, so there's less reason to stay. They might come back. They might not.

There's nothing depressing about saying goodbye and saying why - that's what I call constructive criticism, actually. It's just a little sad because some of the names that are saying it are from people I've been reading posts from for a hefty chunk of my life, and love 'em or hate 'em, they've made my time in CoH a little brighter and more fun, so I'm sad to see them go. That doesn't make me love the game any less, of course.