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Saltyhero13

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  1. Saltyhero13
    Looking at your build briefly it looked like a pretty good viable build. Great recharge and great recovery.

    I'm sure you'll get some OMG *gasp* "No Fly Trap!!111eleventy111!!" comments but I agree its a sound choice to omit that from your build (even though I do have it I was never impressed with Fly Trap.)

    I don't use Vines or Spores but considering you opted for more control over defense I think its a viable trade off. (I chose to soft-cap to S/L.)

    Overall nothing outstanding or glaringly wrong. There have been a few recent posts (by ketch I believe) that discuss creeper slotting, specifically concerning the AoE procs. I bring it up in case you didn't know. They seem to only function at initial casting and every 10 seconds after that.

    I think this build should work well.
  2. Saltyhero13
    In what capacity do intend to use the toon? Farming? Team play? Solo?
  3. Saltyhero13
    I am glad that you did dispelled the myth! Genuinely glad! <-----No sarcasm intended

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    So we are back to you implying I lied. Ok.
    I wasn't implying anything beyond that you shouldn't get offended if someone initially questions a grainy video that is very difficult to read and seemingly contradicted what I was seeing in game (before discovering unaccounted buffs) at the time.

    Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    You may want to examine your use of quotations as a bit of friendly advice for the future. Generally if you meant exactly what you are typing you would not use them as they are entirely unnecessary. Placing them puts emphasis that you likely have little confidence in the statements you are making.
    I appreciate the friendly advice. I do appreciate your time in writing up some posting guidelines for me. I could see you getting confused.

    Since we are on the topic of advice I'll reiterate my previous advice to you: Don't read into things too much. It may lead you into making stupid assumptions.

    If you sought clarity you would have asked. If you wanted to make an issue you would have proceeded as you did. Is this a safe assumption of your intentions?

    Since it appears nothing less than "Barney" style is appropriate with you, I'll gladly clarify my "offensive" and “inappropriate” use of quotations.

    Oedipus brought up a good point about the demo record. I don't own or personally use any software that records ingame footage. Odepius reminded me of the games native demo record capabilities. I was interested in posting my ingame footage to show what I was seeing. At that point I had already discovered the day job buff which accounted for the delta in our experiences. No point in really posting a demo at that time and I wasn't burning a valuable respec to test further. Regrettably his post came after much was resolved.

    The primary reason I emphasized what Oedipus posted was mainly for the fact that a demo record is much better as an analytical tool than video. I can view and analyze old demos to see if there have been any changes in animation and cast time.

    Why do I point this out? My gut instinct tells me that PA animations and/or cast time has been "tweaked". Something feels off about the animation. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I trust my guts as much as I trust my eyes, ears, and nose. I admit I'm a pitbull about gut instinct 'cause in life it’s proven to have kept me alive in a lot of very bad situations. (I can’t explain. Its like explaining colors to those born blind.) For those reasons I cant and don’t want to change that about my nature.

    On the other hand I sincerely hope I am wrong and that an unaccounted animation "tweak" did not occur when power customization (or earlier) was implemented. Controllers have been through lots of changes over the years and they have reached a point where they are fairly well balanced at the AT level. I think at this point it’s safe to say that dev attention to PA would bring nothing but ill results to one of the most interesting powers in the game.

    Considering your sensitive reaction I wouldn't want you to get excited or butt hurt over something you imagined, so I hope that clarifies things for you. I wouldn't want you to walk away with any wrong impressions of what was or was not intended.

    On the flip I'm sure you would have manned up and asked for clarification.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    In the end all I really care about is getting the thumbs up from Adam and Jamie for another myth successfully busted.
    I cant offer you an award or a plaque but I do leave you with these few words:

    If I felt it necessary to call you a liar I would have. I have no qualms about calling it like I see it. No qualms. No need on your part to read between the lines. Trust me on that. I am that guy. So if my explanations of my posts are not good enough there is nothing more I can do to “sooth your irritation”. I do hope you get over it …

    …but I know better though. You are going to read what you want to read.
  4. Saltyhero13
    @Next of Kin

    One of the older builds of Mid's used the suppressed values under the totals tab. At some point that changed and now the unsuppressed values are used in the totals. The dB tweak mentioned above by Frosticus will fix it.

    @Oedipus Tex

    On your Ice/Rad/Mind what are you looking to soft cap too?
  5. Saltyhero13
    @Argentae

    No ramble, I think you hit the "nail on the head" as far as the end management comment.

    F/K has less "set up"; basically built in end and health management.
  6. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ketch View Post
    I'd have to search the Market forum, but I think someone did some research on confusion and drops. The conclusion, if I recall correctly, was that confusion wasn't detrimental to drops in anyway. No matter how you defeated 100 enemies they would always drop the same percentage of salvage, recipes, etc.
    I didn't think it did significantly beyond what we know about "confuse and XP". Thanks for the reply.
  7. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    Your use of quotations suggests the mystery still lingers with you, but oh well.
    Not at all, but feel free to make assumptions. I've seen too many bogus videos and pictures posted on the forums. I've never been one to hit the "I believe button" right away.

    Demos can't be manipulated quite as easily and are a little more reliable for "data mining". Regardless I found the unaccounted buff that was skewing my testing.
  8. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Gotta say, though... at level forty-ish (level 45 now), Plant/Storm is like tossing mobs into a blender. If you have a decent grouping to start with, Creepers-Seeds-Roots-Hurricane-Lightning Storm-spam Roots as needed, and my inspiration box fills up so fast that the little 'bing' noise can't keep up.
    It gets better! APPs only add to the "Pain Train".

    I don't own a Fire/Kin personally; I have always been curious if a well built Plant/Storm/XXX could churn out more "reward "/time than a well built F/K or do you end up loosing too much "reward" using Seeds. On a solo farm I can't use my inspirations fast enough; going "full throttle" is never a problem
  9. Saltyhero13

    Slotting Sleet?

    POST-ACTION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
    I treat Sleet like a proc-basket and it basically turns into an attack. With a high recharge build you're able to slip up to five procs in there (Achilles (-resistance), Positron, Lady Gray, Impeded Swiftness, Shield Breaker). Each damage proc is a 20% chance to do 70 damage 3 times over the power's duration. The odds that you will hit each enemy at least once are very high, meaning slotted this way, this power out damages some of your actual AoE blasts, on top of everything else it does.

    I used to slot it for -Defense but less so these days. Now I do either 1 or 2 recharges (depending on the amount of global +Recharge I have) and proc the rest.
    This

    I was skeptical with slotting this way until I saw the results. I don't regret it.
  10. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
    You may be able to check the times in a /demorecord, if the text file it generates includes timestamps for the instant each phantom disappears. I believe that time is recorded in exact server ticks.
    I was thinking just thinking the same thing Oedipus. Great idea! It would eliminate some of the other deltas.

    To the OP my personal apologies for derailing your thread.
  11. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    The difference right now is that I've offered you tangible hard evidence as well as a break down of how the power works. You are no longer arguing against subjective experiences, you are arguing against video proof.

    Anyway, you'll have to explain this contradiction you are seeing more clearly. Does the contradiction explain why you believe PA works under a different recharge principle than all other powers? And beyond that I think we are at the stage where it is safe to say "vid or it didn't happen"
    Actually I was arguing that the video "proof" could potentially be "flawed" if it induced latency. This "could" effectively require more recharge than actually needed.

    I'm not arguing anymore Frosty there is one key thing I overlooked.

    Thinking back, there is a buff I wasn't accounting for when I made my "subjective observations". My Ill/TA/Psi had the Time Lord's Boon buff (not sure if that is it). I didn't have the attributes window to track my actual recharge bonuses so I was basing it off Mid's numbers (PA was sub 63 but not 60 or better). This sucks, but it does solve that mystery for me.

    I was able to "observe" the delay in activation while looking at the HeroStat timers, similar to what I perceived in your video. It is similar to the "Valley of Lag" in the ITF. I basically saw the timer jump from three seconds or so to done. The power indicated that it was available to activate but did not right activate right away. Either way the numbers displayed by HeroStats are off a tad and I don't believe your video could be off by three seconds.

    One last mystery I cant figure out the delta with. Toying around on my GF's Ill/Rad doing the same thing with HeroStats I noticed Mid's reports her calculated recharge to be 64 seconds, yet in game its actually 66 seconds. I don't think its "Arcana Time" and its too small to be "cast time" As soon as I activate PA the duration timer starts counting down from 60 and her recharge is instantly reported as being 66 seconds. PA is available about 3 seconds after the last one "bamfs" too (which is consistent with how you say it should work no?) Don't know but this last delta is driving me nuts!

    Regardless you should get your "finding" stickied since we lost the older posts about this subject. I definitely dont think 63 seconds cuts it for perma anymore (more so due to latency and Arcana time).
  12. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    You'll have to forgive me though, I don't put a lot of weight in the subjective experiences of others, especially when they run counter to my own experiences and quantifiable testing.
    This.

    Running w/ Hero Stats I am getting approximately ~2sec difference from what Mid's is reporting I "should" see. All the other numbers are the same. Nothing subjective about "real" numbers.

    I understand "cast time". What I am seeing is that the numbers the game reports contradicts that. That is all.
  13. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    the first clip already disproves your claim.
    Hardly. Depending on the load your are putting on your system could make a few seconds difference.

    Example: I just ran a quick test with and without HeroStats. Guess what? It made a ~2 second difference between the two on my system.

    I suspect your video recording may be causing enough of discrepancy to skew results. Are you lying about it? Not at all!

    Do you get the same results without the recording? I bet the gap is even smaller.

    I doubt cast time has anything to do with it. The game begins both the duration and time to recharge upon casting. (Yes I know this contradicts how cast time works)

    Dunno what it could be.
  14. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    Really cause every debate I've ever seen where people talk about it they don't actually know for sure. I'm telling you and showing you for sure. Science > speculation. Proof > belief. Not much to say beyond that.
    I agree. 100%. Except this was a hot topic a few years ago and was proven that sub 63 seconds was enough to perma. Sadly I do believe the debate never made it over with the new forums. I have been looking for the thread to link to for everyone's benefit.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    Unless you are suggesting I edited the video for some hidden gain.
    Not at all. I even made it a point to state that I thought you were being honest and not doctoring the video.

    I would post a video, I don't have the same build since I respeced into Fire APP.

    What I suspect is causing some lag in your first video is the fact that you are recording it. That could account for the delay. Is it a high end machine?

    My experience with sub 60 second PA is that you can recast before the old ones disappear. This would force a despawn off all three PA.
  15. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    I was respecing into a ranged def build today anyway, so I held off on reslotting a few sets at the time. I ended up with a build that has PA recharging in 63.3 seconds.

    Now before I upload the video would you like to make another guess at how long they will be down for?
    If you have it post it! Down time should be about 1.6 to 2.6 seconds after your last PA disappears. I'm accounting for the "oddness" of your last video.

    I am curious what your finding will be. If its wrong then it will be put to rest.

    Edit: I looked at your last video again. I still find it odd that your power is not activating before the old PA despawns. How are your APP powers slotted out of curiosity?
  16. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    Was there something I said that led you to believe I haven't tested this extensively? It surely can't be testing you have done.

    As this video clearly demonstrates I have 135% global recharge, hasten and an additional 95.3% slotted. Which gives PA a recharge of 240/4.003 = 59.995 seconds.

    They all despawn before the power begins to activate again.
    Perma PA Testing

    Hopefully as we move forward we can dispel the myth of the 63 second Perma PA.

    Or you are welcome to provide some sort of evidence for the power operating in the manner of which you speak. That will be tough to do though considering it doesn't.

    This is one of those cases where just saying you know something isn't going to cut it.
    edit: ideal a video showing a build that has a 63 second recharge on PA with them out perma. GL with that.
    Frosticus, nothing personal, but I really don't care to convince you. It really isn't that important to me. This has already been debated ad nauseum. It has already been proven. Videos posted and all that jazz. I'm not wasting a respec on an "internet forum wang measuring contest". I really could care less what you believed.

    I do find something odd about your video. I don't know what is causing the anomaly, but I find it very odd that somehow your PA despawns before your power is charged. This is inconsistent from what I have observed. I don't know if its latency or "Arcana time" but something is off. If you are sub 60 seconds recharge (which I don't believe you are lying about) your new cast should cause the old spawn to disappear.
  17. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
    If you have a 63 second recharge on PA you will be without PA for ~4.2 seconds.
    Sure. If that's what you want to believe. Not to be a jerk, but sadly you are mistaken on how the power functions yet again.

    PA actually lasts for a total of 63 seconds. The first PA does not begin to despawn until after the 60 second timer expires. The last and final phantom of the Phantom Army does not despawn until 63 seconds after initializing PA. At 63 seconds there isnt any more or less of a gap than if you have "overlapping" (sub 60 second) recharge. Why is that? Sub 60 seconds recharge causes all of the remaining phantoms to disappear giving you a gap of about 1.1 seconds before the first one reappears. Curiously that's the same amount of time you are without a phantom if you are at 63 seconds recharge. Hmm.

    63 seconds is enough recharge to keep PA out 100% of the time to off-tank AVs on the STFs (Recluse is a little trickier but can be done using Phantasm's Decoy). Granted the difference between 60 seconds and 63 seconds is how many of the PA members remain (all three in the case of 60s/ last one disappears at 63s). Regardless you will still have a 1.1 seconds gap, not a ~4.2 second gap as you erroneously state.

    This is how the power currently works in the game. I recommend you actually test the power and observe how it works.

    Nice try though!
  18. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie View Post
    And in both instances your defence rellies upon SI, and I'm not sure how much of that supresses when you attack.
    SI suppresses to half the value shown in the power's effects tab in Mid's. So in this case both builds would be about ~3.5% short of soft-capped Ranged Defense. Mid's totals the unsuppressed value for some reason.
  19. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Psyte View Post
    How much of a recharge do you need to get PA to be perma? I've got a global recharge of 58.75%, plus have 97.7% recharge on PA itself. No Hasten, so I'm figuring I'm going to have to work that in somehow (blah to respecs).
    I think the total recharge needed is ~300% (~281% being the minimum needed if you can live with 63 second PA). Hasten, AM and your recharge slotted in PA all count towards this value as well as global recharge bonuses from sets.

    Here is Arcanaville's formula for calculating recharge:

    NewRecharge = OriginalRecharge / (1 + RechargeBuffs)

    Or to make it easier:

    RechargeBuffs = (OriginalRecharge / NewRecharge) -1

    Details on this formula and how recharge works is discussed in great detail here:

    http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=118546
  20. Saltyhero13
    Here you go, this is as close as I could get you. The key is to use sets that boost recharge and ranged defense (The "Set Bonus Finder" in Mid's is your friend)

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    Its not a build I personally would want to play, but this should get you in the ball park so you can play around with the slots.

    Both SI and GI suppress so their total suppressed defense value is about ~5.5%. Mid's reports the unsuppressed values in the totals tab.

    Also keep in mind Perma-PA does not require 60 seconds. If you can get PA to recharge in under 63 seconds you are in the Perma range. "Overlapping" recharge actually causes the old PA to completely despawn. My point is that either way you are going to have a gap (a little over 1 second) between PAs.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
    First, the whole idea behind a perma-PA build is to keep PA out there at all times as a way to draw the aggro away from you -- so you don't really need that much defense.
    I have to echo LM's sentiment here. If you play your cards right you wont need soft capped defense.

    I will also reiterate LM's suggestion that you consider soft capping to S/L (instead of Ranged) using Ice Mastery's armor. I think you can get better results without making too many sacrifices in your build.

    Hope that helps and Good Luck.
  21. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lillika View Post
    Thanks for the reply and I tweaked what you posted using your suggestions. Had to drop hasten but oh well, I was able to work in Throw Spines. I can't find any way to get more slots into tough/weave though.
    No problem. I personally would not drop hasten.

    If you go the S/L route here is the build I am farming with on live with. Its a bit of an oddball build, but it may give you some ideas. I can spam my attack chains (no gaps) without worrying about dropping toggles due to a lack of endurance (in a standard mob of critters). For ST I use Ripper,Throw Spines, and Impale. For the AoE chain I use Throw Spines, Spine Burst and Ripper.

    Twilight's build is pretty good too. It has some very good slotting that is worth looking at.

    It is possible to soft cap to S/L. IMO I hated using brawl , and a few other powers, as a Kinetic Combat mule. Some of the other power slotting would have been sub par, but it is doable.

    GL with your Spines/DA!

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  22. Saltyhero13
    The endurance recovery in this build is unsustainable. Many of your toggles are seriously under-slotted for endurance reduction. My own recommended rule of thumb is that you aim for about a ~55sec to full end recovery or better (should be approximately 2 end/sec or so). Beyond the endurance issues that will cripple this build, I see no Throw Spines or Fire Ball. You went with the Blaze Mastery APP, and you didn't take Fire ball? (Dont answer that, it is a rhetorical question). I see that you took Build up very late in the build as well.

    Here are some quick recommended fixes:
    • I would drop Blaze Mastery and get Body Mastery instead, especially since you didn't get Blaze Mastery for Fire Ball. Grab Physical Perfection and slot another Performance Shifter Proc in it.
    • Find room for Throw Spines. It is very much worth it. I don't understand why you did not take Throw Spines (except for the fact that it gives no melee defense set bonuses.)
    • If you are going for Melee defense you can get a small bonus from the Rectified Reticle set in Build Up.
    • Tough and Weave are under-slotted. They need more end reduction.
    • Get the accolades that give a bonus to max endurance.
    Even though it still needs work, something like this.

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  23. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Traegus View Post
    ok, i've heard that there are some changes in the works for grav control. i was just wondering if anyone had heard more then that? maybe what changes, maybe time frame for the changes? anything? very interested, as grav is my favorite control set for thematic reasons, but tends to let me down in actual gameplay
    Castle mentioned something about looking at the animation times, no time frames where given. No official word beyond that.
  24. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Argentae View Post
    How did you have Roots slotted?
    I ended up slotting with 5/6 of the the Enfeebled Operation for the S/L +Def and the tiny recharge bonus. I am currently at the max +6.25% Recharge ("Rule of Five") So Posi's set wouldn't bring anything to the table for my build.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    I've been experimenting, actually- none of the procs are *terribly* expensive, so I decided to experiment- that's how I've got Creepers slotted in my live levelling build right now. It's a bit early to give a solid response (only started trying it yesterday), but things certainly seem to be dying faster. If somebody who actually understood how the procs work could weigh in, I'd certainly appreciate it, but according to my limited understanding, all those procs have a chance to fire off with every flail of the creeper vines, while the Posi's Blast proc does not.

    ... hmm. Poking around on Mid's with the average damage, it looks like stacking Posi's Blast in Creepers would actually give slightly higher average damage (about 20 points per), although the potential damage of the procs is much higher. That might be the way to go, then (although I'd use another proc other than the chance for Energy one, since it would only fire when you laid the Creeper patch down- the vine-flails aren't AoE, and as such wouldn't trigger it).

    And Salty, looked at what you said, and... hmmm. Looks like I'll be shifting the Ragnaroks into the Creepers for my finalized build and leaving a Posi's in with the Roots (although I can't entirely complain, since that nets me a tiny bit more recharge :3)
    I proc'ed out Freezing Rain and Carrion Creeper's and have been very pleased with the results.

    As far as Carrion Creeper's goes it looks like there are several components: Vines and Bramble being two of them. From reading the city of data entry (http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power..._Creeper_Patch) it looks like the Vines would benefit from KB and Slow sets and the Bramble would benefit from Slows and Immobilize (and should from Posi's but I suspect it doesn't).

    I'm sure someone else has a more definitive answer on how the power works.
  25. Saltyhero13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Avlorik View Post
    http://www.facebook.com/notes/city-o...50225446005301

    i posted that also on the dom board

    Q5 “Could you tell us a little more about Electric Control? I'm especially curious about the top tier power, is it another petless set? If not, could you tell us what the pet is? How is it different from the other control power sets?”

    C! : Electric Control has a few very interesting power. Jolting Chains, is a Knockdown power that can go through a spawn and knock them all down, one after another. It's pretty amazing to watch. Static Field is a placeable Sleep power. Now, I know what most players think of Sleep effects, but our closed Beta testers really seem to like it, with comments like "This is the first Sleep power I consider worth it." The Tier 9 is Gremlins -- little electrical guys who toss out bolts of lightning.
    Sweet deal! Thanks